As someone who listens to a bunch of indie-rock, I’m not even sure where to begin answering this: the ethos of the whole genre is built in large part on the imperfect/cool thing.

I would suggest that a lot of the reverie for delta blues is based on this conceit.

(I mean, even some of the people who are actually being perfectionists and trying to nail everything are actually working — consciously or not — within an aesthetic that’s beholden to the sloppy/cool part, which I think sometimes turns out interesting and sometimes turns out awful, like someone winds up with the absolute worst of both sides.)

Actually I think early blues are going to be pretty hard to fit into this system of thinking, because we’re talking from an age where the “perfectionism” part is as much in the recording technology and the presentation as in the performance — a whole different mindset from that stuff. I mean, I’d agree that those blues are basically the onset, for American music, of people being excited about the “raw”/“human” performance, but the thing is that there’s a virtuousity to the way those guys performed that, something that’s really different from the modern sloppy cool it might be one root of; if you take it apart musicologically there are ways in which that stuff is a technical part of the music (like certain lags in the beat and tempo switches) that make it a little more complicated than usual to say whether that’s a “sloppy” aesthetic or actually virtuoso performance.

jazz

funk

ILM

(Hey Jordan, how much of a divide do you see — in these here perfect/imperfect terms — between like early and late funk? Or like JBs machine-style staccato-interlock funk and like 70s loosey-goosey bouncy-bass funk?)

madlib

Punk (duh).

I prefer my crackling vinyl version of Tom Waits’ Rain Dogs to the CD.

“As someone who listens to a bunch of indie-rock, I’m not even sure where to begin answering this: the ethos of the whole genre is built in large part on the imperfect/cool thing.”

sure, well then what indie crock bands are in large part perfectionist

Smegma.

also interesting to think about is whether sloppy-cool comes from lack of skill

or from artistic ambition

Yeah, I was actually thinking of JB as a counterexample.

I guess in my theory of funk of there’s got to be tight and loose elements in some kind of balance. I totally know what you’re talking about with the loosey-goosey 70’s funk, which doesn’t work me for me when everyone in the band is playing busy/rock-ish.

I remember reading some Prince interview where he said he would start with the stiff drum machine beats and then overdub live percussion/other stuff on top until it came to life. Or the opposite w/the Meters studio stuff where the guitar/bass/organ lines are basically set in stone and the drums fill in the gaps. So many different ways to make it happen.

Jim Shephard/V3

All of New Zealand

Sloppy/cool sometimes comes from a lack of skill and/or artistic ambition. And sometimes it’s an organizing aesthetic, a way of focusing ambition. And sometimes it’s a combination of those things, or something else entirely.

Like funk and jazz, most indie rock walks a tightrope between the slurred allure of “authenticity” and the trad (Appollonian) virtues of precision, composition, forethought, intelligence and mechanical skill. Obv.

Yeesh. Some people want music to sound like it’s falling off a cliff, held together with sink hair and melted cheese, while other people want it to sound like orchestrated angel farts wafting down from heaven. Neither approach has a let up on the other.

hahaha

i do think it’s always an interplay between both sides

I don’t know exactly how to define “imperfect” although a lot of 60s acts have come up with new recordings of their old hits that are plain and utter rubbish, in spite of superior audio. Probably more due to losing inspiration than a matter of sounding too “clever” though.

black metal

The Buzzcocks

Much of the delta blues “sloppiness” came from limitations in the technology. Everything was done in one take with no over-dubs. Some players were very accomplished. I don’t know of too many guitar players who are as good as Mississippi John Hurt.

There’s something more exciting about guitar solos when they’re Not Exactly Right. It’s kind of a roller-coaster effect, sure it’s fun going up and down all fast and stuff, but what will REALLY get your heart racing is the car falling off the tracks.

I think I’m thinking mostly though of ridiculous rock guitar.

CrazySloppyCool

It’s true though, it’s the same with horn solos. Everyone hears the mistakes (or “mistakes”) they make in solos and thinks it sounds awful, but I think the ear is pretty forgiving. It’s kind of exciting to hear someone stumble or fuck up and then come back with something hot.

(unfortunately the same thing rarely applies to playing grooves)

I don’t know of too many guitar players who are as good as Mississippi John Hurt.

Right, but he isn’t technically a good singer, nor are most blues singers. I greatly prefer them to a more technically impressive singer (Whitney Houston?) in terms of range and pitch quality and all that.

Also, Hurt was a very talented guitarist but there is a good deal of imperfection in his actual guitar playing. He doesn’t play in perfect time and didn’t always hit the right notes, you know? Perhaps he could play with robot-like precision but why bother?

cat power, totally respect her thing—i mean she even gives me courage sometimes, you know, to feel like i don’t have to write a symphony every time

but does she ever sheen it up? i feel like she should if she doesn’t, at least sometimes.

running out of work not making much sense.

she sheens it up, don’t worry

A Jazz head insisted to me once that Miles Davis will always be a better musician than Wynton Marsalis because you never hear Winton hit a wrong note and you frequently hear Miles do so.

ahh yes, mr newjazz mcstrawman

most folk music and most country music. now i take mah leave.

“If hitting wrong notes is cool, consider me Miles Davis!”

My old folk 78s.

Ariel Pink

Those guitar solos on Double Live. Especially on track three, disc one.

which Double Live you talkin?

First one (PSF 3/4).

Do classical musicians think all other genres are sloppy?

maybe ;P

except for like avant garde classical with shrieks of violin and plucking pianos

1988 Frank Marino Double Live

1989 Butthole Surfers Double Live

1993 Keiji Haino & Fushitsusha Double Live

1997 Classic Rock All-Stars Double Live

1997 Rheostatics Double Live

1998 Garth Brooks Double Live

1999 France Gall Double Live

2000 Yngwie J. Malmsteen Double Live

2001 Johnny Socko Double Live

2002 Demis Roussos Double Live

2006 Etypejazz Double Live

FUSHITSUSHA

dunno whether ’tis a right thingy to say here but i really am of teh ‘pinion that maher shalal hash baz sound most perfect in their, well, ‘imperfection’.

1989 got some dope slop jams

sure, well then what indie crock bands are in large part perfectionist

unrest

The Birthday Party

“Metallic K.O.”

Charlie Manson

dope slop jams is a great expression

Jazz solos definitely sound better imperfect. I dunno who the trumpet player on Les McCann & Eddie Harris’s Swiss Movement but he fucks things up in all the right ways on “Cold Duck Time.”

Everything sounds better imperfect.

Yer sick, Sick maaaan!

:)