When Darwin was talkin’ ’bout evolution, he wasn’t talkin’ ’bout chicks with dicks!

www.snopes.com!

Claim: Snopes is hipper thatn PappaWheelie

Status: True!

PappaWheelie doens’t even know who the fuck ciara is!

http://villagevoice.com/music/0649,selah,75197,22.html

Holy fuck is someone missing the point.

Okay, that review is BEYOND RETARDED.

That guy sure sez crunk a lot.

this is INCREDIBLE, it’s not as if i expected anything less, but it’s such an old-fashioned grandiose statement of intent from ciara. what i have isn’t cd quality which is annoying but the scale of her ambition is pretty apparent. it succeeds on all fronts as far as i can hear!

‘like a boy’ is an obvious highlight—i saw a video of her performing this live somewhere on the internet where she’s grabbing her crotch throughout, and in the breakdown she PICKS UP ONE OF HER DANCERS AND LIFTS HER TO HEAD LEVEL. really love ‘i proceed’, ‘make it last forever’ (rapping!), ‘get in fit in’ and ‘i found myself’ too.

i love the old-skool zinging synths and handclaps all over this.

more liek grabbing “her” cock amirite

esteban with the hard hitting assholism for the center square.

only a few tracks in, but it’s exactly what I wanted out of her: bangin’, catchy and with less treacle. Pappa, you’d find things to like in this; it’s very girlie action.

That review is gone for some reason.

go away forks

just go away

never come back

(I am already sure that I’m not going to be into this because the two singles leave me cold but I’m still boggling at how stupid that review was.)

Not even “Promise”, Dan?

I’m waiting til Tuesday, but I have high hopes.

For all the crunk fixation of that review, it ignores the fact that the worst bit on the entire album is the first minute with this hugely annoying and completely incongrously grafted on Lil Jon cameo that continues to get in the way for the rest of the song.

The leaked version I’ve got is a bit dodgy (bass please), but thoroughly enjoyable, and Bang It Up is awesome.

Not even “Promise”, Dan?

I find “Promise” very annoying, mostly because of her vocals. I’ve gone completely, totally off Ciara since that awards show last year where she was singing live with a whole bunch of other people and just... couldn’t. A very similar thing is going on for me with the main backup singer for The Pussycat Dolls (aka, “the one who shrieks all out of tune every time they do ‘Buttons’ live”).

Another WTF article from Selah

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0649,selah,75196,22.html

So CLANG vs. crunk, then.

yeah the one Pussycat Doll besides the main one who actually sings backup sometimes is awful

also why does every Akon review treat him more like a rapper than an R&B singer? wtf.

probably because his brand of r&b is so macho that thematically it seems closer to hip-hop—i can’t think of anyone else doing that sort of thug’n’b, and akon doesn’t do any cheesy loverman ballads/slow jams. it’s quite odd hearing those lyrics in akon’s rather weedy, nasal (but good) voice.

i’m surprised dan doesn’t love ‘promise’! especially since it was clear from day one that ciara had a range of about three notes.

I’d say Ciara actually has pretty decent range, it’s just that it extends down moreso than up. People tend to fall into the trap of confusing thick/thinness of voice (Dan, is there a technical term for this?) with range.

Rodney, I think you’re looking for “timbre”.

RE: the range thing, I think people are going, “Oh, every song she releases only has three notes in it, that must be all she can sing.”

(I wouldn’t have a problem with Ciara only singing three notes if she sang them in tune.)

so the album is good ? the cover is pretty stylish for one thing. guess i’ll take it anyway.

it’s not just good, it’s GREAT.

(obv my last comment is re: her live when she’s not lip-synching; I don’t care if she does fab dance routines and mouths along because I enjoy that a lot more)

The only time Ciara’s voice becomes a problem on this album is whenever she’s required to interact with any other voice on the record. Possibly it’s because her voice is so thin or maybe its because all the collaborations are so ultra, ultra-phoned in but it barely sounds as if they’re on the same song, or indeed remotely interested in being so.

there’s not a great deal of interaction really—there’s chamillionaire, your standard guest rap (a terrific example of it though—i love the mid-rap switch-up of his flow) which ciara gets out of the way for, and 50 cent who sounds bored all the time anyway, it’s kind of his selling point! my copy of the lil jon track is so crap that i can’t really judge it properly. i don’t care if i’ve been promised a promo, i am going to buy it this evening because i need it.

the limitations of her voice are totally ciara’s strength—when she’s trying to get a high note, and she can’t get it, and it comes out as this kind of rhythmic gasp, it’s BRILLIANT.

Um... okay...

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but celebrating someone for not being able to do something is really stupid. Celebrating someone for making an artistic choice based upon their strengths and interpretation is one thing but Lex’s statement celebrates and privileges mediocrity.

Dan that’s a fairly limiting hardline position I think. There’s heaps of music which sounds best at the exact moment (and precisely because) the artist’s reach exceeds their grasp. But also i imagine Lex would come back and say that Ciara is turning her weakness into a strength here b/c she conflates vocal limitations with emotional excess—high notes in pop songs usually represents emotional peaks, and (when it’s used) gasping usually does too. So if Ciara recognises that she can’t hit the high note without gasping this is not a reason not to go for the high note, it’s a reason to make sure the high note occupies a position in the song where gasping would also make sense. “Promise” does this brilliantly: it’s not a song that would make a lot of sense with a big belter performance, it’s a function of the song that the singer has to actually sound a overwhelmed and weak with emotion.

The Lex is the one who complains about how indie vocalists can’t sing.

Celebrating someone for making an artistic choice based upon their strengths and interpretation

this is exactly what i was doing (or at least, celebrating someone for making an artistic choice based upon the strength of realising what their limitations are). ciara’s limitations aren’t so much note-hitting as note-sustaining, anyway. tim otm obv.

i’ve said this elsewhere but one thing ciara excels at vocally is rhythm—she’s always bang on the beat, and she sings as if she’s dancing; each note she sings is like a choreographed move.

my favourites from the album keep changing, currently they are ‘get in fit in’, ‘bang it up’ (DRONE!) and the amazingly emotional “i am me” suite of ballads which closes the album.

“the first day i started walkin’ was the first day i started dancin’”

Dan that’s a fairly limiting hardline position I think.

Like I said, an unpopular opinion.

If you are in a genre where people are expected to sing (ie, R&B) and you can’t sing very well (ie, Ciara, Keyshia Cole, seemingly a good 80% of the people with record contracts, etc), I don’t think you should get props for your singing. It is much more impressive when Christina Aguilera goes for a soft touch with her vocals because you KNOW she could belt them out for hours and not even blink, but she’s performing it that way because it is an intentional artistic decision. Ciara has absolutely no options with “Promise”; she couldn’t do anything with it besides the performance presented in the recording and, as a result, I’m not particularly impressed, ESPECIALLY since I’ve heard what she sounds like when she does try to belt or sing out (ie, like ass).

There are vocalists out there whom I really, really enjoy who are not great singers in a strictly traditional sense, most of whom present themselves in a paradigm where you can get away with it (Robert Smith and Billy corgan leap instantly to mind). Ciara isn’t one of them; she can’t even do her own schtick better than anyone else because Cassie and the group who does “Do It” are leagues better than her. Really, the only thing Ciara has going for her is that she’s sexy; forget Aaliyah, this girl is the new Britney Spears.

I actually see where Dan’s coming from on this and agree with him in that there are a boatload of singers who could perform Promise better.

But on the other hand I don’t particularly care because I’m pretty sure I will never hear it in anything other than its studio incarnation and don’t really have any interest in doing so.

But on the other hand I don’t particularly care because I’m pretty sure I will never hear it in anything other than its studio incarnation and don’t really have any interest in doing so.

Matt’s point is a fair and pertinent one.

Ciara has absolutely no options with “Promise”; she couldn’t do anything with it besides the performance presented in the recording

this isn’t remotely a problem given how exquisite the performance in the recording is—and also that there is no song on the ciara album which would require a performance she isn’t capable of, and yet within her limitations she’s managed to craft an impressively varied and ambitious set of songs.

also, many of the songs sound tailored precisely to what ciara can do—it’s not as if she’s merely trying her best with material others could do better, or trying to pull off songs like ‘ain’t no other man’ or ‘ring the alarm’. whether this is due to her having a writing credit on every song or an extremely good understanding of what she does on the producers’ side i don’t know.

On some levels, Ciara makes me have more respect for Ashanti. Obviously this kills me.

The difference between Ciara and Ashanti is Ashanti is boring.

apart from ‘only u’ which is great! and i think tim f will rep for some early ashanti album tracks which i haven’t heard.

Yes, actually anyone who likes “Promise” should check out “Voodoo”.

(No one wants to take on my “Ciara = Britney” assertion?)

it wouldn’t be so bad if she was!

i think the reason it doesn’t ring true for me is because ciara’s stamped her artistic vision so heavily on the new album. whether you think she’s able to perform it well or not it’s abundantly clear that there’s a definite aesthetic (back-to-the-80s old-skool ice rink jams, like one elongated janet jackson tribute) she’s aiming for. she never sounds like the vehicle for other people’s songs—i mean, i didn’t even realise ‘i proceed’ was a neptunes production until i saw the credits because it sounds less like a beat they gave ciara as an integral part of the evolution, the album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ephRvYEXW4

I am horrified and turned on and horrified at my being turned on by that video.

Now having actually heard this, I like it, but mostly it just reminds me how tired I am of crunk, bubblecrunk, post-crunk, and the etc. The song after “Get Up” is really weird. The song after the song after “Get Up” is really boring. It has the weird distinction of being the only rnb album this year that I havent unabashedly loved (Beyonce, JT, Neyo, John Legend) or been completely indifferent to, (the rest) though it could creep it’s way into the former w/ more listens.

there is mindboggling sophistry on this thread from tim and lex.

I don’t think so. In almost every other aspect of popular music it’s accepted that not being able to “play” can be used as a strength if it’s paraded with a certain level of conviction/passion.

In R&B a lot of criticisms seem to come down on either side very sharply when it comes to singing—either technical vocal proficiency is held up as the standard for assessment or people complain that R&B is overly concerned with it at the expense of actual feeling.

The truth as always is a bit more complicated than that.

I really like this album after like 1.5 listens, probably because I’m not as jaded on bubble-crunk as the great Rodney. I still need to hear that John Legend album, wtf with a copy not dropping from the sky for my delectation and delight. Who cares if girl can’t “sing.” I also love Ashanti, who is getting kinda gangsta-rock now with the mixtape and I approve of that wholeheartedly.

Who cares if girl can’t “sing.”

Um, I do? (Although, in fairness, and I said this when she first came out, she’s not offensive to me on record but she isn’t particularly engaging either.)

In almost every other aspect of popular music it’s accepted that not being able to “play” can be used as a strength if it’s paraded with a certain level of conviction/passion.

I disagree with (what I presume are) the assumptions behind this statement for two reasons:

1) In general, you are assuming that the (for lack of a better phrase) parameters for success are the same amongst all different forms of popular music.

2) Specifically as it relates to this song, you are assuming that everyone would agree that Ciara’s performance is convincing.

Actually Dan I don’t think I’m doing either of those things—if anything I was noting how people view the parameters for succcess differently with R&B, and saying I think sometimes those parameters are applied inflexibly, with insufficient appreciation for how particular songs can change parameters for success if they want to—and of course it goes without saying that those parameters also change for particular listeners, but I appreciate that we have to thrash out the “when you make a statement that sounds objective are you in fact being objective?” issue in every ILX thread at some stage.

In general I appreciate that R&B places a higher premium on technical vocal performance than, say, rock. This results in a lot of what is good about R&B (and some of what is bad). But just as rock is not limited to a particular notion of a four piece live band, R&B is not limited to a particular notion of singing. This is precisely because we can’t ultimately unanimously agree on parameters (altough ps Geir to thread).

i like Ciara but have to say the first time I heard the song w/o knowing who it was, I thought, that girl really doesn’t have the voice for it

this album gets better & better & BETTER!

Interesting factoid—on “Heard it Through the Grapevine” apparently Berry Gordy had them play the song in a certain key because he knew that Marvin Gaye would have to strain to reach the upper notes, which gave it more of a desperate quality.

I may not have this anecdote exactly right but close enough to make the point I think.

uhh I kind of understand where Dan is coming from, elsewhere I had an argument w/ someone who claimed that the new Nelly Furtado single was better than Aaliyah’s entire catalogue and I found this kind of ridiculous; of course they can prefer any song to any other if they want to, but the comparison still seemed to ‘miss the point’ of aaliyah’s approach, which is a much more subtle vocal performance; where Nelly F. is about melody, Aaliyah is melody AND interpretation/style (i’m generalizing, really both artists do both but I think Aaliyah has more of a balance). Not that there’s anything wrong with ignoring Aaliyah’s subtle qualities, if you prefer the sleek production and cool melody-aspect of the new Furtado single thats cool, but to compare it to Aaliyah’s entire catalogue just because its timbaland+singer misses some very significant aspects of R&B performance that I think are integral to MY appreciation of R&B.

uh i have no idea if that made sense.

I’ve actually started listening to Loose again and noticing how nuanced some of the performances are. I still haven’t gotten around to giving the Ciara album more than one proper listening.

maybe “proper listening” is not really what’s called for with that record though

“Proper Listening” aka not putting it on as I’m falling asleep and only hearing the first three songs.

ah okay, approval granted, carry on

(haha Matt)

I’ve actually started listening to Loose again and noticing how nuanced some of the performances are

100% OTM; given the way everyone on ILM bigged up the club tracks and bashed everything that was ballady or mid-tempo, I was shocked both at how consistently good that whole album is AND by how much of a vocal an emotional chameleon Nelly is on the album (the vocals on “Showtime” sound like a completely different person from what she’s doing on “Te Busque”, which is totally different from “Say It Right” which is distinct from “Promiscuous” which sounds nothing like “Maneater”, etc).

The Aaliyah comparison is interesting because I think both Aaliyaha and Tweet had much stronger vocal presence than Ciara (with Tweet being the strongest). My biggest problem with Ciara is that I feel like she’s a completely uninteresting cypher; my enjoyment of her songs are solely tied to how much I like the beat as opposed to anything she’s doing.

(The Marvin Gaye story falls down somewhat in this context when you remember that Marvin Gaye was a phenomenally flexible singer who did a bunch of different songs in a bunch of different styles, both strong and tender, whereas Ciara has made the beginnings of her career by singing every song put out for the public like Sade vocalizing into a pillow.)

i didn’t mean to compare the two that way—merely observing that sometimes stretching against someone’s abilities can be a good way to obtain a more evocative performance.

Oh, that I totally agree with! My point about Ciara is that it seems like every song where she sings outside of a range that goes from the F above middle C to the C above that stretches against her abilities, so I’m not sure that lionizing her for sounding like she’s desperately reaching for a note on a particular song is warranted.

I wouldn’t deny that Ciara is limited as a singer and there’s a shitload of songs where she sounds like it too. I just think it works on “Promise”. Difference of opinion anyway. (“Oh” is also a weirdly compelling vocal performance, albeit very differently).

And, y’know, obviously good vocal performance is a huge part of R&B and it goes towards why Teedra Moses > Aaliyah > Ciara. On a song by song basis though there’s no necessary reason why vocal chops will push someone further over the line.