OMG
I know, right? I’m contemplating seeing it again tonight.
I may go again this weekend.
I am roffling at the reviews that say “EW, THEY SANG DIALOGUE AT EACH OTHER”. I think people need to learn how to watch musicals.
ya i pretty much loved it (tho it was maybe a little long)
Loved it, loved it, loved it.
Jennifer Hudson was amazing. Audience was in clapping fits when she was singing “And I’m Telling You.”
This man is a douchebag.
Wow. I’m surprised we didn’t agree on this movie. Usually we’re on the same page.
Loved it!
Good Eddie Murphy where have you been all this time?
What didn’t you like about it, Eric?
Nothing really complicated. I just didn’t like the songs, which is a pretty big roadblock when it comes to musicals.
The musical I’m waiting for someone to make: City of Angels.
Eddie Murphy, however, very very good in a surprisingly smallish role. Nearly as good as he was in Nutty Professor, imo.
He should get an Oscar, but he probably won’t.
He def. deserves it more than the pervert in Little Children or Jack Nicholson. Maybe not as much as Mark Wahlberg, should he get nominated.
Ha, this movie/show basically panders to my tastes in musical theatre so that wasn’t an obstacle to me. Also, JENNIFER HUDSON OMG
There was also applause for JH in the theater I attended.
I like some musical theater, though I guess I should note that I spelled it e-r instead of r-e.
yeah they went NUTS for hudson when i saw it.
the songs didn’t totally do it for me (esp compared to the stuff they’re emulating) but the performances sold them.
There was also applause for JH in the theater I attended.
Yeah, mine too.
The movie is really about the Supremes, but in the wake of hard-hitting, warts-and-all musician biopics “Ray” and “Walk the Line,” this approach doesn’t cut it.
puke
I do have a hard time separating “And I’m Telling You” from Chris Rock’s White Person’s Guide To Surviving The Apollo though.
my queeny boss liked it just fine, but he felt the Beyonce character was softened up too much compared to the stage version, making her less bitchy took a lot of the bite out of it. anybody familiar with both the stage & film versions feel the same way?
she was kind of a non-character but i thought that was the point?
Yeah, the Beyonce casting was right on.
I didn’t really like this much at all...Hudson was def. great, but apart from that, the film didn’t impress me. The majority of the music was lackluster, and the film really seemed to lose all of its energy after “And I Am Telling You.”
Overall, it was too much flash and not enough substance. I mean, I’m not opposed to over-the-top musical numbers, but when there’s almost nothing else in the film, it gets monotonous.
And why are so many reviewers surprised that Hudson outshined Beyonce? C’mon! That’s the way the film was written.
saw it again just now! there was clapping in the theater for Hudson during “And I’m Telling You” both times I saw it.
the songs are not great, but it is so exactly what I’ve always wanted from a movie musical in every other way that I can’t complain. smartest editing-of-montages ever! and it’s not the reason I like it, but the casting is so eerily brilliant on a meta level. Beyonce and Jennifer Hudson especially, but Eddie Murphy, too, a little. I can’t even imagine how uncomfortable saying those lines must have been for Beyonce.
I’ve seen so many lackluster film adaptations of musicals with really brilliant songs (the entire Rodgers and Hart body of work comes to mind) that I think I’m willing to forgive brilliant filming of mediocre songs.
that dude who played Effie’s brother is adorable.
oh, and regarding this:
I am roffling at the reviews that say “EW, THEY SANG DIALOGUE AT EACH OTHER”
I really dug the way the movie didn’t naturalize this, the way movie musicals sometimes do, by providing a pretext for people to be talking-then-singing. the movie managed to retain that shock of unrealism of people singing dialogue at each other. and yeah, people who can’t appreciate that have no business watching musicals.
that dude who played Effie’s brother is adorable.
I kept waiting for him to turn gay in the movie, but when he stormed out of a recording session because Foxx was overlaying disco orchestration, I figured it wasn’t going to happen.
roffle
The movie is really about the Supremes, but in the wake of hard-hitting, warts-and-all musician biopics “Ray” and “Walk the Line,” this approach doesn’t cut it.
I haven’t seen either of these but my understanding is that these are by the numbers right? Much in the vein of that Germs trailer?
GERMS trailer?
totally by the numbers
well ray at least, i couldn’t be bothered to see wtl
i kind of got tired of music by the end of this film.
At least Ray featured Ray Charles’ music, not Broadway versions of Charles songs.
So, does Hudson give a performance or is it just that one scene you all keep talking about?
GERMS trailer?
might rent this one day (I already own earplugs)
So, does Hudson give a performance or is it just that one scene you all keep talking about?
She definitely gives a performance. After I stopped freaking out about AI’s Season 3 7th-place finisher getting this amazing role, she really became Effie for me (I should note it only took me 5 minutes to get over the AI thing). Her portrayal was a lot more nuanced than I was expecting; both she and Eddie Murphy were extraordinary but everyone else was excellent.
Is she the one who sang that totally showstopping number on AI, with the outrageously strong, long high note, and got voted off immediately afterwards?
I’m glad Armond White’s pan included a rant about what absolute shit the American Idol style of bellowing is.
http://www.nypress.com/19/51/film/ArmondWhite2.cfm
Heheh, I will definitely see Camp now.
Ugh, the NY Press is now calling itself “New York’s Premier Alternative Newspaper.”
Am I supposed to grovel in shame because I haven’t seen one episode of American Idol?
You’re supposed to feel smug.
or just old-fashioned (the standards thing)
(and I don’t mean Tin Pan Alley standards, not explicitly)
Is she the one who sang that totally showstopping number on AI, with the outrageously strong, long high note, and got voted off immediately afterwards?
Yes.
I continue to be amused by people who refer to a style of singing that is close to 40 years old as “the American Idol style”. I also take issue with the implication that “Dreamgirls” somehow has a responsibility to be a factually-accurate biopic because it was inspired by The Supremes.
Haha that’s what I thought! Paul Sci-Fi Soul still has that episode on his Tivo.
I only demand songs that sound like a Supremes-inspired combo could perform them, not songs that sound like Broadway-inspired Supremes.
Um. Given where the musical came from, that’s kind of... stupid?
the implication that “Dreamgirls” somehow has a responsibility to be a factually-accurate biopic
I wonder who implied this.
So there’s credit to be given if it’s faithful to something that wasn’t good in 1981 either?
I never cared for the source material.
The review you posted was pretty stupid though. Hasn’t that critic seen The Umbrellas of Cherbourg?
Criticisms that boil down to “This isn’t black enough” don’t really fly with me so I apologize for any brusqueness. That is the undertone I get from the vast majority of complaints about the songs from this show; criticizing a Broadway musical for sounding like a Broadway musical doesn’t make sense to me.
(xpost: Oh come on Morbs, that’s what that Armond White review is complaining about, along with the token “I hate Eddie Murphy” aside. And yes, I think that there is some credit to be given for retaining so much of the flavor of the source material after translating from the stage to the screen; if they hadn’t done that part well, everything else would have been moot and no one would care if the songs were Motown-worthy or not.)
(hahaha note to self: do not rely on Wikipedia. Pretend I didn’t say the Eddie Murphy nonsense)
Armond is generally a solid Murphy fan (he raved about NP2: The Klumps).
Yeah, two seconds of googling cleared up my Wiki-induced misconceptions. I meant to delete that anyway; stupid switching between windows messing up my editing.
morbius you should watch more new movies instead of just posting links to armond white reviews of them
I gen only link to stuff I wouldn’t watch stoned.
zing, right?
goddamn shame that armond white is the single holdover from the old white/seitz/cheshire trio.
A.W. is linkable and royally entertaining when he really hates something.
Someone on a gaygaygay board said at the premiere engagement here at the Ziegfeld, some guy was singing along to the whole damn thing in his seat til an usherette came over with her flashlight and said, “Girl, control yourself.”
this movie sounds totally unwatchable (and I like musicals)
How do you mean? Should more of them be around or is that an “ANYONE BUT HIM” statement?
(xpost: roffle)
ANYONE BUT HIM
it’s really eminently watchable even if some people don’t find it listenable.
Dan why do you characterize the “American Idol”-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.
this movie sounds totally unwatchable (and I like musicals)
SEAL OF APPROVAL.
Someone on a gaygaygay board said at the premiere engagement here at the Ziegfeld, some guy was singing along to the whole damn thing in his seat til an usherette came over with her flashlight and said, “Girl, control yourself.”
oh haha i was at one of the ziegfeld things and the crowd was like half gay, and half black, with quite a bit of crossover. before it started, i went to the bathroom and there was a huuuge line for the stalls, but the urinals were ok. who does coke/gloryhole action right before a movie?!?! (a non-porn movie)
i had never been to a movie before where people cheered during the movie, and hung around during the credits to give hearty appluase when a performer’s name came up.
well, let’s hope it’s the last time.
(didn’t they charge $25 a ticket?!?)
well, let’s hope it’s the last time.
? I love it when people cheer at movies.
I am a big sap, though. that probably explains why I loved Dreamgirls so much, too.
I only heard of the musical two years ago. This makes me a Bad Fag, I suppose.
i still want to see this although it looks like I’ll have to go alone.
go with morbius!
ppl applauding at movies are cheering their own fabulousness (which is no surprise in this instance). Still, the projectionist should come out for a bow.
Morbs needs to take me to see Inland Empire.
So this is now the gay film fan date thread?
We needed to replace the old Brokeback thread.
(didn’t they charge $25 a ticket?!?)
oh i dunno, i got for free.
SCENESTER
I only heard of the musical two years ago. This makes me a Bad Fag, I suppose.
i still havent seen brokeback mountain!
i don’t like the idea of sexual orientation coming with requirements
ppl applauding at movies are cheering their own fabulousness
I think they’re just enjoying watching the movie with other people rather than alone.
Alfred, fly up for the Ann Miller triple feature in April (Reveille with Beverly included).
Actually, I guess I’ve seen people cheer at Whats Love Got to Do With It, when Tina leaves Ike.
I saw people cheer when Trinity died in the last Matrix movie, and it was not uncalled for.
i think the only times i’ve seen audiences cheer is when women give it back to some jerky male in a drama or, conversely, when a woman is slapped around in an action film. also: when leonardo dicaprio pistol-whipped matt damon in ‘the departed’.
cheering/clapping is fun. it makes you feel like you’re participating. sometimes it is a spontaneous expression of delight. jesus.
OTM. it’s nice when moviegoing transforms into a community experience.
Best fun with movies in theaters is either that full participation in a full theatre or a situation where it’s just you and a couple of friends and nobody else (which has happened a couple of times over the years).
Dan why do you characterize the “American Idol”-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.
HI DERE ARETHA FRANKLIN + SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK + SOUNDS OF BLACKNESS + APPROX A GAZILLION ACTS FROM BEFORE THEN IN THE GOSPEL/BLUES ARENA
yeah Effie seemed clearly Aretha Franklinesque to me.
Even if you don’t buy the Aretha comparison, check Jennifer Holliday’s performance at the 1982 Tonys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czftJYMoRv4
Kind of can’t blame Mariah for a song interpretation that predates her by eight years!
Yeah, a spontaneous expression of delight is OK, and doing at the end credits sure ain’t that.
equating Aretha w/ American Idol = OH NOES
“why is this aretha person dressing up like a white lady and not singing in the guttural, unmodulated tones of the authentic negro experience”
spontaneous expressions of delight can happen whenever, that is what the word spontaneous means
When Jennifer Hudson sang “This time... Effie’s gonna WIN!”, a woman in my theatre shouted “HOT DAMN!”
yeah, the first time I saw it, the theater was packed (Christmas Day) it was clear no one could quite contain themselves every time Hudson was onscreen. 75-year-old women were murmuring with delight. it was pretty awesome.
Dan why do you characterize the “American Idol”-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.
I say Stevie Wonder really popularized it, but I love him and think he’s responsible for almost everything in pop.
i’ll try to restate this. many people hate melisma in pop music because it strikes them as essentially fake emotion. melisma in pop signifies emotion, frequently. in opera, it does so far less frequently (and even when it does, the singer is explicitly playing a role and has no claim on personal authenticity). therefore, the existence of melisma in opera, assuming you even like it (which i do), may be irrelevant to why you dislike it in pop music, even leaving apart issues of technical ability and melodic composition quality.
I still disagree with this, largely because the singer in pop music is playing a role just as much as the singer in opera is regardless of the autobigraphical content of the pop singer’s material, but that’s definitely a more defensible statement of your point.
You know, this isn’t the first Dreamgirls thread that’s basically abandoned talking about the film.
all this agita reminds me of the CRASH thread of last year—guess that bodes well for Dreamgirls’ oscar chances
AAAAAAAHHHHHH II-AHHHHHHHHHHHH
WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOUUUUUUU-OOH-OOOOH-OH-AOUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
ALWAYS LOVE
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
“Emotion” or “showing off”? Only her doctor knows for sure.
so is this movie at least edited less frantically than Chicago? cuz I couldn’t sit through shit like that again.
Sonofagun, Sparkle IS out on disc this week. I’ll watch that.
I never saw Chicago, but I think Dreamgirls is edited perfectly.
I mean, Is there a cut every 1.5 seconds?
no. I don’t really think it could be characterized as frenetic.
There are some gratuitous spinning shots during some of the performances and I missed the “One Night Only (Disco)” section due to an urgent bathroom break so I don’t know what happened there. None of what I saw struck me as haphazard or even moderately difficult to follow.
“One Night Only (Disco)”: the dancing is sort of frenetic, but understandably so. the editing is not.
how long is it?
arrgh, there is no way I’m going to get the boy to go see this with me. I tried to convince him eddie murphy was worth it but no go.
two-and-a-half-hours-ish.
it’s way better directed than chicago.
It’s Moulin Rouge that’s cut frenetically, not Chicago. (I ended up coming around on Rouge, eventually. I think it’s the only generally good movie musical of the ’00s.)
CRAZY TALK! I could shit a better movie than Moulin Rouge. but yeah, I was picturing Moulin Rouge as the point of comparison when considering whether or not Dreamgirls was cut frenetically.
I think it’s the only generally good movie musical of the ’00s.
I admit I haven’t seen Not on the Lips, yet.
When did Hedwig come out?
IM A DRAMGIRL
ew Hedwig was terrible.
best 90s musical = Velvet Goldmine!
the best musical of the ’90s was ‘south park: bigger, longer, and uncut’
I was gonna say!
Ugh. goddamnit gear, the “ugh” is not for you :(
“Though you die, LA RESISTANCE LIVES ONNNNNNNNN...”
I can’t believe I actually sat through Velvet Goldmine. I was trying to keep mum on this thread but that, sir, was a step too far.
hmmm yeah, the South Park musical is probably the best thing Stone/Parker have ever done
xpost!
Ally doesnt agree with me shockah
Frenetic isn’t the word for Moulin Rouge!’s cutting; pathological perhaps.
Velvet Goldmine’s big advantage was that (non-Bowie) glam music wasn’t that good to begin with, so the pastiches met the standard.
How does Eddie Murphy’s perf score as an audition for Spike Lee’s announced James Brown film? He’s too old to play him in his 20s but that may not stop it.
i loved both Hedwig and the SP movie. I spoiled the latter by getting the soundtrack at the college radio station earlier in the week, and listening to it over and over and playing half of it on my show right before the premiere.
I remember sitting in the theater thinking, “wait, you guys need to not laugh so loud during the songs, you’re missing half the jokes!”
(x-post) Pretty good, actually.
Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons, the pathological cutting being only one of them.
I’m still a little bitter that my sister didn’t let me walk out of Moulin Rouge.
Haha when someone put on the DVD of it, I figured I’d give it another go. The DVD punked out during the death scene and I was never happier to see a DVD punk out.
Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons
I could not agree more.
C’mon, it’s not literally unwatchable because you really can’t anticipate what will come flying into the kitchen sink next. (Besides someone else who can’t sing.)
Moulin Rouge is not boring. Chicago and Dreamgirls, for the most part, are.
I mean, getting your eyes gouged out isn’t boring either, presumably.
i’d like to see a musical of ‘hostel’, speaking of that.
Yeah, stimulation isn’t everything, so Everyone Says I Love You tops MR!
i’d like to see a musical of ‘hostel’, speaking of that.
I agree.
stimulation isn’t everything
Shouldn’t musicals be expected to be somewhat sensualist, tho?
I suppose, but echo eye-gouging comment.
did you like the songs in Phantom of the Paradise, btw?
The first one to say Grease gets his eyes gouged.
What are you saving for Grease 2?
I just got an email ad for the Evil Dead off-B’way musical which leads with a granny testifying how delightful it was to get spattered with stage blood.
did you like the songs in Phantom of the Paradise, btw?
Yes.
I can’t believe I actually sat through Velvet Goldmine. I was trying to keep mum on this thread but that, sir, was a step too far.
I thought it was for slash fiction fanatics only.
haha I liked pretty much everything in Phantom of the Paradise BUT the songs
(which is weird considering Paul Williams’ otherwise decent songwriting track record)
I thought it was for slash fiction fanatics only.
Frightening thought.
Yeah, none of those androgyne stars did any actual manfucking.
“Movie musicals” really don’t have anything but a noveltylike place in the culture anymore, whereas they (and Broadway) used to be the dominant source of pop music. So you get neither fish-nor-fowl contraptions like the recent wave of music-video approaches to ’70s/’80s material, trying to be hip and retro.
maybe so, but back when they had a more stable place in the culture, a lot of shitty movie musicals were made. I think there’s still potential for good movie musicals.
well, anytime a lot of anything is made a lot is shit.
did the Outkast film make any impression here? was it the only big-budget original-to-the-screen musical this year?
sorry to repeat myself, but
is Mo’ Better Blues really a musical in any conventional sense...? (I honestly don’t remember, haven’t seen it since it came out).
I don’t think anyone saw the Outkast movie, including me.
is Velvet Goldmine? we don’t make musicals in the conventional sense anymore except as sort of postmodern period pieces. it’s suffused with jazz, has some singing/scatting/quasi-rapping, and borrows a lot of the formal tropes of musicals.
well Velvet Goldmine is a musical in the sense that there are extended musical sequences wherein the main characters sing—I don’t remember anything like that really happening in MBB.
well, at this point, i’m willing to call any movie that makes heavy use of music in the fore or middle-ground a musical of sorts. it’s not meet me in st louis, but no one makes meet me in st louis anymore. does MBB involve dialogue spontaneously turning into song? no. but it does have at least three musical numbers involving the leads, one of which is sung, and one of which is quasi-rapped.
“not a great film, but ... an interesting one, which is almost as rare.”
The same can be said for many Ebert reviews. I’ll miss him almost as much as I miss the late Spielberg.
I don’t think anyone saw the Outkast movie, including me.
I did. I liked it although it felt more like one long video than a movie.
I second the notion to eye-gouge anyone related to the movie musical Grease.
Also, I don’t think either Velvet Goldmine or Mo’ Better Blues should be classed as musicals—I mean, you are now treading the line in which anything that depicts a character singing is a musical, which would make Fire Walk With Me a musical if you really want to be technical. It seems to be an abuse of the term. Is Labrynth a musical? David Bowie sings that UTTERLY RIDICULOUS SONG WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT in it!
You remind me of the babe...
does Fire Walk With Me have several musical numbers and nearly continuous music in the fore or middle ground? if so, I’m willing to deem it a musical.
(somehow I doubt it has the structure of a musical, but maybe I shouldn’t be surprised if it does?)
The entirety of Twin Peaks has repeated musical numbers by Julie Cruise and nearly continuous music, have you not seen then?
I think your definition is terrible, to be very honest with you.
I’ve never seen Fire Walk With Me
Is Labrynth a musical? David Bowie sings that UTTERLY RIDICULOUS SONG WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT in it!
More movies should have songs about kicking babies in them.
well, at this point, i’m willing to call any movie that makes heavy use of music in the fore or middle-ground a musical of sorts.
I’m not. By that logic, the movie “High Fidelity” and “Magnolia” are also musicals.
I’m stickin to my definition.
Though at the top of the page it does say ‘The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed.’
If characters sing/dance instead of crying or killing somebody it’s a musical.
as opposed to a KILLSICAL
Little Shop of Horrors?
Silence of the Lambs musical to thread.
In West Side Story people get to sing, dance, AND kill, lucky PRs :D
instead of/in addition to
West Side Story=apotheosis of the musical form
Don’t forget “Sweeny Todd” and “Assassins”!
(xpost: oh poo, you’re no fun sometimes)
Assassins=love...apparently I like my musicals bloody.
“sometimes”!!
(also total agreement with “West Side Story” as the bomb-diggety musical; see also “Candide”)
come to think of it, I never really fully made my point yesterday about melisma in opera. regardless of whether the origin of e.g. bel canto and baroque cadenzas is with the composer, and regardless of how common embellishment and elaboration are today, and regardless of questions of authenticity/rockism, my fundamental point was that melisma—the repetition of a single syllable over several notes—is commonplace in all operatic composition in a way that is rather alien to contemporary pop songwriting. thus, the existence of melisma in opera is irrelevant here, unless you want to use “melisma” to refer only to operatic melisma that you deem analogous to the melismatic vocal style in contemporary pop. at which point, you get into all the other issues above.
By that logic, the movie “High Fidelity” and “Magnolia” are also musicals.
i’ve never seen high fidelity, but i just saw magnolia for the first time, and don’t remember any music except for the sudden/random breaks into song that are (?) shakey’s signifiers for musical-ness. i’m not sure what i’d call that, myself.
Yeah, pretty much WSS is the apotheosis. Does anything else have as pivotal a place?
That’s not meant to be a reply to Ned.
I was very disappointed to learn of (and see) the non-musical Little Shop of Horrors.
Assassins=love...apparently I like my musicals bloody.
Me too.
So how many of us had dentists who knew the song Ally posted the still from and loved singing it at times? (I had two.)
All stage plays should be bloody. Shakespeare started off with things like Titus Andronicus and just got more restrained about it.
Jesus Ned, wtf kind of dentists did you have?
Slightly disturbing ones. This was the eighties and I had no immediate say over what dentists I chose. (Thankfully they didn’t do this ALL the time.)
These were military doctors, weren’t they.
Gabbneb, have you ever seen the sheet music for pop music? Unless it’s aimed at pre-teens, they write all that shit out; the wierd off-rhythms, the blue notes, the melismatic sections... it’s all pretty much there (which is another reason why so many covers follow the recorded originals as closely as they do).
(xpost: The rest of the time they sang “D’Ya Think I’m Sexy” to him.)
These were military doctors, weren’t they.
Strangely enough, no. But in military towns, so...
The rest of the time they sang “D’Ya Think I’m Sexy” to him.
The reasons for not thinking much about my youth grow ever clearer to me.
Ugh what a horrible image I am getting in my head.
not in a very long time, but i’m not sure i understand the point. most pop music (pop being a very broad term here) has little to none of the sort of melisma employed regularly in opera, no? stuff sung in the melismatic vocal style, even if the music is written out, is just a fraction of the pop music out there.
This thread was missed.
fyi the original soundtrack is unbelievably badass, in case you didn’t know