Got it?
Down :(
Very slow, it might as well be.
I’m getting fed up to fuck with ilx breaking down. what happened to all the money that was contributed to fix it?
Stet spent it on organic cider
Pash was just about to post an announcement about it when it went down :(
Up and down like and uppy downy thing
Darnation. I’m not getting poxy fuled though—just nothing...
Up and down like and uppy downy thing
You mean one of those things that yoyoers use, don’t you? Can’t remember what they’re called either, but you’re OTM.
I was thinking more the kind of things pogo stickers use. One of them.
Ste, that money was to find a new host in case the current ones were kicking us out. It was not to reprogram it (which is why it breaks all the time). people are kindly volunteering their talents to do that.
i.e. it is sitting in stet’s bank account gathering interest, which he is using to buy organic cider. Probably.
I’m now trying to think of other things which go up-and-down all the time. I’m sure I remember, back when I was a kid, that there was an expression about going ‘up and down like a one-armed paper-hanger“ but I might be wrong.
I believe “whore’s knickers” is the phrase of choice, though the more polite may prefer “bride’s nightie”
cheers MM, I’d forgotten about the hosting issue.
Whore’s drawers!
like a 2 dollar hooker
No I’m not!
Whore’s drawers sounds better, you get away with it in polite company as people mistake it for hors d’oeuvres
Parties where whores drawers are mistaken for hors d’oeuvres sound a bit raunchy.
Not to mention louche.
a glorious new dawn can’t come soon enough. BRING ON THE NEW CODE. AND THE NEW SERVERS. AND THE DANCING HORSES.
I think the only place you’re going to find dancing horses is on the Noise Board’s ASK LAUREL thread.
Yes, token, it’s going up and down like guess papers. What?
Those are really more plummeting horses, since they appear to have jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.
olol o who o why
This was great! I got loads of work done this morning.
it’s a radical step, but couldn’t you limit a lot of the ILX problems by restricting access to logged-in users (with an ‘in’ for GoogleBot specifically)? That would have to cut down on a lot of the traffic and usage overwhelming the server.
i think it’s a bit late for such sticking-plaster measures. BRING ON THE GLORIOUS NEW DAWN. before it’s too late and we all get bored.
after 5 years if I’m still here, despite being bored, I doubt anything can drive me away.
the real ilx just redirected me here...
But the real ILX is down. I CALL YOUR BLUFF.
yes I haven’t even gotten a poxyfule.
i’m glad it’s down, i’d only annoy myself by moaning on football threads
oh wait it’s up again
zebedeeyoyopogoknickers
Knacked again :-/
Fatal error: Call to undefined function: logsqlquery() in /home/ilx/dev/stable/boardfunctions.php on line 179
xpost
It’s down for me—I get:
Fatal error: Call to undefined function: logsqlquery() in /home/ilx/dev/stable/boardfunctions.php on line 179
Fatal error: Call to undefined function: logsqlquery() in /home/ilx/dev/stable/boardfunctions.php on line 179
“Fatal Error” sounds really scary. Anyone ever seen that before?
poxy fule! first in ages!
IT WAS OJ.
Bah :-/
more poxy fulage....
the glove didn’t fit!
Life’s funny. I never thought I would be revisiting the OJ case when I got up this morning.
Clearly trife was getting to the bottom of things. The LAPD had to shut us down.
I can’t wait for Kobe Bryant’s “How That Woman Would’ve Known It Was Rape.”
If I had poxy fuled, this is how I’d have done it.
errr... still poxyfuled?
hung jury?
I think it’s my fault, i resurrected noize thread from archives. I didn’t use search though, I promise!
christ, it’s irritatingly fucked tonight, isn’t it?
Up and down like um..
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. All of the slobber and none of the pleasure.
COCK TEASE.
It’s not even poxy-fuling. The page isn’t even loading. It’s just...nothing :-/
The ILM page is PF, the ILE is just hangin’
and again
Gone again :-/
:-(
CLANK!
the same fucking day I go on about how reliable it’s been.
I knew you were jinxing it, I just didn’t want to say.
ban stet
Sorry, I swear it was up again for about ten minutes just now. :(
pfff
I bet Nude Spock has something to do with it.
It was up long enough for me to post happy birthday to CJ and that’s all that matters :-)
Nah, I am BORED! COME BACK!
bump :(
i think ILX overheated at the exact moment my radiator did on the way into work this morning...
: (
This is because I got all excited about it being back up and wrote a big long post about Casino Royale which people will never see now, isn’t it?
:-) Do you believe me about Saha yet?
Back down again. Up long enough for my pointless Casino Royale post to go through though.
No, I still think he thinks he’s offside.
I’m getting poxy fuled again—everytime i try to post to that Michael Richards thread...
Man, it’s up and down like a sideways back and forth thing.
I can’t access the machine to fix it so god knows how long this’ll take.
Poxy fuled and turkey fueled, darn it!
It’s definitely down this fine Fri morn.
What fine Fri morn? Here in West London it’s Hollyoaks weather—dull and overcast.
dull, overcast and wooden??
I’ve got a very good view of Earl’s Court from my window but I don’t know whether it’s made of wood.
Earls Court is either made of Plywood or old stained stone. Depending on which direction you’re facing.
I’m viewing it from a northwesterly direction. It looks like a gaily-coloured Meccano model, the squat redness nicely offset by the imposing Fairy Snow blue of the Empress State Building immediately to its left.
When is the big switch over to Super Server ILX2.0 again?
It’ll be like switching on the ILX Christmas Lights!
I can exclusively reveal that Annie From Norway has been booked and confirmed to turn on the ILX Christmas Lights.
est toa April.
Will she be chewing gum while she does it?
When I was a little kid, my (Welsh) father told me that the correct words to “Men of Harlech” were
We’re the men who come from Norway
Shooting peas up a nanny goat’s doorway
At the star-studded ceremony Annie From Norway will be joined by a host of stars, including TV’s Jan Leeming, Joanna Newsom, Dave Collins Out Of Dave And Ansil Collins, and TV’s Bradley Walsh.
Who will be providing the catering?
some hens.
I was hoping for a Shamed This Morning Star John Leslie appearance.
He will be there, disguised as a hen.
Catering will be exclusively provided by The Comedy Italian Bloke Out Of TV’s Ready, Steady, Cook, with sexy assistance from leading “girl about town” journalist Zoe “Willy” Williams!
A friend of mine used to date a very cute and charming Italian bloke but she dumped him for the sole reason that he was unable to pronounce Heinz Baked Beans properly, referring to them as “High Back Edd Bins” which she found intensely irritating. I don’t think he was The Comedy Italian Bloke Out Of TV’s Ready Steady Cook though.
When I was on Old Bailey jury service back in 1990 the prosecuting council persisted in spelling “Heinz” as “HIENZ” and pronouncing it as “HIENTZ.”
He also pronounced “Tescos” to rhyme with “Lesbos” (as in the Greek island).
It was a fraud trial and it was a rather laboured analogy.
haha
will the new code finally ban mickey?
seriously needs to
From this:
And banning someone from ile is not ok, but bullying several posters off of posting to threads you start and being a hateful lunatic is totally ok?
I’m guessing it was Kate. xpost
Yeah, because mickey’s so much worse than any other annoying cnut round here
ok. ban kenan too.
It’s all about opinions.
xp
Yeah, because mickey’s so much worse than any other annoying cnut round here
there are others as bad as him but none seem to have quite the same fondness for the word “faggot”
hahaha xpost to Gerry
true xpost.
It’s all about opinions.
“Opinions are like assholes...”
opinions are like belly buttons
it’s all about the safety of your identities
LOL (xpost)
mickey’s “relationship” w/the RIAA lifts him above garden-variety internet assholism. he’s an undercover narc, 100000X the threat to ILX that many ppl seem to think JW is.
opinions are like the cellular composition of a body, they replace themselves completely every few years yet somehow remain almost exactly the same
All i can say is it’s only slightly amusing that I had started a thread about the depressing state of BBC ‘have your say’ threads only for this to happen.
or more accurately, a parole violator who will draw the heat here.
“stash the hash, man”
Mickey’s just a Jagger with EDGE.
I was just reading that BBC have your say thread, having not looked at ILX all weekend, when catastrophe did strike.
Mickey’s just a Jagger with EDGE. and men’s clothes.
Mickey Jagger?
Mickey Borchardt: “Sinking a Music Pirate” (L.A. Times, April 3, 2006)
This simpering piece of garbage could have been written by an RIAA operative: a college student busted for illegal downloading details how the FBI dragged him into court while concluding that “stealing of any kind is wrong.” Wonder if this essay was part of his plea bargain? If so, they should throw the book at him, though they probably won’t since he’s acted like such a good little tool.
Um how does one put up images again? (Sorry I should know this by now!)
but put it all a bit closer together
(img src=“www.comedykitten.jpg”)
but with pointy brackets instead of round ones.
Thanks ailsa. How did you know I wanted it for kittens? :)
(the html checker frowns on pointy brackets unless you do them in html too, which is probably where acrobat’s explanation went)
xpost—it’s ILX, dude, what else would you want it for?
To write actual pointy brackets on the screen, incidentally, you write < for < and > for >
Aye, see that’s where I’d fall down, because I’d write that and it’d magically turn into pointy brackets, hence missing the point.
so the few miserable cunts who dislike me can have a great argument for banning me?
FWIW jon (as if you care) I don’t dislike you but the whole hacker ethics bewilders me. The problems you find are important but it seems the methods you use to highlight just create more headaches for people who are ultimately volunteers.
On the bright side, I not only look ridiculous now, but people might remember me for my naivety. I guess I’m just throwing out halfway uninformed opinions after a few years of underposting and overlurking.
Aye, see that’s where I’d fall down, because I’d write that and it’d
magically turn into pointy brackets, hence missing the point.
If you want to write <, write &lt;—and if you want to write &lt; write &amp;lt;... oh the hilarity.
xpost—it’s ILX, dude, what else would you want it for?
OTM. Have done my work on the other thread. I’ll stop now for fear of the madness that might be unleashed!
Anyway, the point is that Starry Sarah is totally noize.
<
<
</life>
I think that I trust Jon enough to not fuck with things.
have i woken up in a parallel universe or something?
Well, he could have, but did he? As far as I can see, he didn’t reallty (except maybe ban Kate, but that’s not really THAT harmful). Like Ms Misery, I don’t get the hacker mentality/code/whatever, but I’m happy he did hack into the database and showed us it was fragile. So ok, maybe the admins knew, but I think it’s stil (sort of) a good thing.
(I just mean: cut him some slack.)
cap’n save-a-hax0r
Nath, there is a fundamental difference between reviewing the code and reporting a problem and ‘hacking into the database’ and causing problems — without telling anybody, and letting the mods discover what had happened after the fact. If that distinction isn’t clear then I don’t know what to say. I’ve had my own questions about these last couple of days but you have no idea about the level of anger these and previous instances have caused among the mods.
Pash, Stet and KeefW in particular are dedicated to providing — as has been noted, on a strictly *volunteer* basis — the best possible home for ILX at the present time. They coordinated the effort, they have shown a hell of a lot of energy and good judgment in general, and they do want make sure that ILX runs efficiently and securely. No offense but you might want to cut *THEM* slack first.
As Matt says though, most of the time you don’t register much with me, and I guess I don’t register much with you either, but why is it that whenever you DO it’s for things like this?
Because you only post on Chicago threads?
— jw (jo...), February 11th, 2007.
Uh, that is not Chicago Sarah.
This thread is about QA, right?
Also, Jon hasn’t done much (though random banning of people you don’t like must raise some sort of ethical issues), but he’s threatened enough, and fucked shit up in the past enough, that the mods thought it wasn’t a risk worth taking.
As Ned says, a helpful person would send an email going “look, here is a loophole I have found, do you want to fix it” rather than fucking shit up for everyone else and claiming that somehow that was a better way of drawing said loophole to the attention of Keith, Stet and Pashmina, if he’s really doing this for the collective good of ILX.
I think it was more the banning that was for the collective good; getting to point out a hole in the code is basically a fringe benefit.
xpost But hasn’t Jon reported the errors numerous times to the mods? What exactly did he do wrong? He hacked into the database, but what did he do wrong there save (?) making himself a mod and banning Kate (which is a somewhat crap thing to do... I know). I mean, I’m not saying he should be applauded for what he did, but in some crazy ass way I can understand (from his snooty geek point of view wink wink). He should be spanked (heh!), I mean, told off for what he did, but it’s not the end of the world/ILX.
I mean, everyone acts as though he’s destroyed ILX. FFS, he just hacked into the database and banned/elected himself mod. That’s quickly solved, no?
lol
xp
Nath I think the point is that, rightly or wrongly, some of the mods/coders do not trust Jon to have access to mod priveleges and not abuse them whenever he’s in the mood to do so.
He hacked into the database, but what did he do wrong there
Excuse me, I’m going to go find a wall to bang my head against.
it appears he does not need to have access to mod priveleges seeing as how he can make them and take them when he pleases.
FFS, he just hacked into the database and banned/elected himself mod
Oh, that small matter of TOTAL POTENTIAL TO FUCK SHIT UP? That’s all right then. Hurrah for Jon! Boo to over-reacting coders/admins!
There is a post upthread that apparently people either haven’t read or are willfully ignoring. Let me repost it:
Everybody:
Jon found a security hole in ILX that lets him get access to the database. Full access, so he can give himself mod privs, delete posts, threads, boards, the whole site.
He didn’t tell Keith or me how he did it, he just took advantage of it. Keith and I are the only people with access to the server right now. We both have full-time jobs. The old ILX code running depends on people not trying to break it, or hack in.
If Jon is going to hack the boards by finding holes — of which there are many — we can’t leave them up without doing a lot more admin work to try and stop him. On top of which, the new host’s backup system hasn’t been set up yet, so we have no backups right now.
We’re going to move to the new secure code. It’s not quite ready, it hasn’t had all the features fleshed out, but it lets you post and is largely secure.
— stet (bonald...), February 11th, 2007. (later)
yes hacking into the main db is a very, very bad thing. which is, from what I understand, why he did it. to show how dangerous it was.
“He didn’t really _shoot_ anyone, I don’t see what the fuss is about.”
x-post — I need to look for that wall again.
also, yeah, lolz at Laurel. But I’ll be all little miss principle here and suggest that if Jon had decided to ban, say, Ned or Dan or Allyzay or Nabisco or someone who isn’t quite the polariser that Kaet is, the reaction might be slightly different.
but he didn’t!
BAN ALLYZAY
Oh yeah! xpost to onimo
(someone please randomly ban nathalie for experimental purposes)
The guy broke into the house, and he only took a couple of CDs. I think it’s cool, cos it shows me that broken lock that I KNEW WAS BROKEN and had the LOCKSMITH BOOKED TO COME FIX was broken. He didn’t steal the TV, after all.
Yeah but the CDs he stole were all shite ones no-one wanted to listen to.
rofl
(I should just read the kittens threads tbh)
I don’t think that’s exactly what principle means (xp or randomly) :)
The principle is that you don’t ban people because you don’t like them. Which, yeah, isn’t a Fundamental Human Right or anything, and obviously jon comes from the noise board where that principle doesn’t hold at all. But that’s part of why he doesn’t have site-wide powers, and why people are anxious about him giving himself them.
Of course it’s wrong, you have to be retarded not to realize this but he did it to show how loopy ilx was. FFS he could have wrecked ILX but he DID NOT.
Ned do you want me to move the wall a bit closer?
Could you please?
Nath, can I repeat something I JUST FREAKIN’ POSTED FROM STET’S EARLIER COMMENT:
The old ILX code running depends on people not trying to break it, or hack in.
If Jon is going to hack the boards by finding holes — of which there are many — we can’t leave them up without doing a lot more admin work to try and stop him.
In otherwards, could you please allow for the fact that, perhaps, the mods maybe possibly kinda knew that there were problems with the code as it stands?
xpost
yeah but Nath that’s like saying “Sure he had a gun, but he only shot that person in the foot. He COULD have killed him!” ;) (I’m just having fun with you.)
also, we must all remember that this is just ILx. Not terribly huge and important in the great scheme of life. (as opposed to our feet.)
In other words, it’s the hacking itself that’s the problem, not what he did or didn’t do once he’d hacked in.
I don’t know how many other ways there are for people to say this.
Of course it’s wrong, you have to be retarded not to realize this but he did it to show how loopy ilx was.
And the first time he did this, people took his intentions into account and said “thanks, but don’t do it that way”. But this isn’t the first time he’s done this kind of shit, or even the tenth.
7th?
I’m happy he did hack into the database and showed us it was fragile
mmm, yes, because NONE of us knew that, did we?
come on: this code is held together with chewing gum and string. that’s why it’s being recoded, FFS! which jon knows, as does everyone else: what the fuck is the point of “pointing out” security holes in something that’s about to be canned anyway?
i can’t believe anyone’s buying this “it was for the public good” line. it was to noise people up (pun vaguely intended), as is so often the case with jon’s little escapades. in which case:
I just mean: cut him some slack
no. don’t get me wrong: i like jon some/most of the time, and enjoy his posts. but every so often he seems to have this compulsion to stick his dick into ILX, which only serves to fuck it up for everyone else. why doesn’t he cut the board some slack?
The principle is that you don’t ban people because you don’t like them.
Yeah, and why I’m saying it’s all very well going, “oh it’s just Kate, she’s a bit loopy and annoying haha”, but I imagine it being someone other than Kate may lead the likes of Nathalie (in fact,it is just nathalie, isn’t it?) to taking this a bit more seriously.
In case you were suggesting I didn’t know what a principle was. If it wasn’t me you were getting at, ignore me.
also, we must all remember that this is just ILx. Not terribly huge and important in the great scheme of life.
Entirely true. Those who have made it part of their lives on a regular basis via site maintenance, coding, etc., however, have an understandable interest in database and hacking concerns that I think is being ignored or misunderstood by a number of those who haven’t. And that’s a damn shame. Nobody’s looking for hosannas to boost our collective ego, but exactly what is so surprising to you about moderator worries about this situation?
Those who have made it part of their lives on a regular basis via site maintenance, coding, etc., however, have an understandable interest in database and hacking concerns that I think is being ignored or misunderstood by a number of those who haven’t.
Also, those who have made it part of their lives on a regular basis by READING and CONTRIBUTING (that aren’t morons).
Though this is going to end with RJG turning up and telling everyone to let go, isn’t it?
I hope so.
Great, now I’m singing Frou Frou in my head.
if Jon had decided to ban, say, Ned or Dan or Allyzay or Nabisco or someone who isn’t quite the polariser that Kaet is, the reaction might be slightly different.
Well, duh, but he’d’ve had no reason to ban those people. Okay, maybe Ally...but not the others! Point being: there are a number of people on the boards behaving badly in various ways and NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM. Like, not even really standing up to them and saying “Your behavior sucks. Please stop or don’t be my/our friend/s.” Jon is arguably one of them, everyone’s perspective on this will differ. But the lovely virtues of tolerance and politeness and cultivating NICENESS in the world are running up against the fact that plenty of people are oblivious or unconcerned about tactful silences and the gentle pressure of suggestion. It’s occasionally helpful to have people around who don’t mind rocking the boat, as much of a pain in the ass as they inevitably are.
Hi Kim! Remember when we had Noise Admin powers and Jon threw a huge shitfit even though we didn’t cause the least bit of damage (and never had any intention of doing so)? Remember how I told Jon to calm the fuck down and noted that if he ever did the same thing with ILE, he’d find the whole thing hilarious and would tell us all that it wasn’t such a big deal? I’m sure he’ll show up soon with his nose running and try to tell us that the two situations aren’t the same though ...
— No Time Before Time (mbvarkes...), February 12th, 2007 8:21 AM.
I’m still waiting for Jon to explain how this is different.
Shooting someone in the foot isn’t the same as having your foot shot!
Point being: there are a number of people on the boards behaving badly in various ways and NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.
This is a fully legitimate but still separate concern from the hacking question. Conflating the two issues is doing nobody any favors here.
(these analogies omg)
Well, duh, he had no reason to ban Kate either. Also, if I was appointing people to be the judge of who ILX would be better off without (which I’m not, and never would)—Jon wouldn’t exactly be top of the list, so why the fuck he gets to appoint himself the guardian of ILX is anyone’s guess. xpost to Laurel
(also, Kate doesn’t even know about any of this, so it hasn’t exactly worked)
(Haha, I know!)
Yeah, and why I’m saying it’s all very well going, “oh it’s just Kate, she’s a bit loopy and annoying haha”, but I imagine it being someone other than Kate may lead the likes of Nathalie (in fact,it is just nathalie, isn’t it?) to taking this a bit more seriously.
Yeah, but it’s not much of a principle if you have to go “imagine if it was someone who counts” (er, not that Kate doesn’t count). The principle is that it matters more if it’s someone unpopular (I’d make an analogy to legal representation for terrorists, but I want to be able to turn up to Nu-Shimura Curves gigs without wearing a disguise).
And I think Nathalie acknowledges that it was wrong, but doesn’t think it’s important—it’s Laurel that’s going “Go go gadget-Jon!”
In otherwards, could you please allow for the fact that, perhaps, the mods maybe possibly kinda knew that there were problems with the code as it stands?
Furthermore, from what the mods and Jon have both said: the mods are not aware of the exploit that Jon used, and it is an exploit that would seem to allow him to use the boards *as any user*—he certainly said he could carry out mod actions and have it recorded that another mod had done them.
As people upthread have said: if you find a hole like that, the ethical thing to do is inform the people responsible. If they ignore you, you’re then free to tell people about it. Actually *using* the hole is not ethical.
haha ‘confronting’ = ‘banning’. Yeah, BIG MAN.
I can understand why the moderators whould be upset with finding that Jon had somehow gained mod privileges, but everyone else using this incident as an opportunity to take pot-shots at Jon’s character can sit on a rusty eggbeater. You never him.
Oh yes, by all means, explain to me again about hacking and why it’s bad! (XXXP)
i find this whole thing wholely hilarious. what’s the old saying? arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics?
Laurel: I am coming to NYC at the end of this week, I would like to drunk with you / ian / jon / etc.
This is getting ridiculous.
Point being: there are a number of people on the boards behaving badly in various ways and NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM
does ignoring them count? ‘cos, you know, that’s what i like to do. more people should try it some time.
unless someone’s particular brand of bad behaviour involves hacking the site and fucking off the admins. that’s kinda tougher to ignore.
Andrew, this is not MY principle (or lack of), I’ve said all the way through that this is wrong from top to bottom. I sort of guiltily laughed at Laurel going “lolz, it’s just Kate, we’re better off without her” and then suggested she might see it a bit differently if it was one of her friends instead of Kate.
You never him. = my new mantra
i find this whole thing wholely hilarious. what’s the old saying? arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics?
— chicago kevin has a lust for bacon
You don’t find it hilarious, you silly little twat, you’re just one of the kids who enjoys the opportunity to pat himself on the back for not being ridiculous enough to care about something other people do. These blow-ups are always plagued by that sort of shit, but for once maybe you could shut the fuck up about it and just let things get hashed out.
Elmo, you know I’m always available to drink with company. Email me/the boys/us about it and we’ll make a plan.
XP: Okay, whoah. I have no idea what Kevin did to piss you off so thoroughly but I have a feeling there are like three cases of mistaken identity on this thread. Starry Sarah vs ChILX Sarah being the most amusing and harmless so far.
It is not the moderators or anyone else’s job to stop people ‘behaving badly’, whatever that means. Pretty much the only people who ever get banned are persistent trolls, racists, people posting viruses and the occasional Marissa-type absolute fruitloop.
If we banned or cautioned everyone who was flaming or being a cunt towards another poster we’d a) never get any fucking work done and b) have no posters except Nabisco.
xpost
i don’t find it hilarious? are you sure? what are my thoughts on other topics? please enlighten me! because *i* think this is now getting funnier but i need your expert opinion on what i actually think.
BAN KEVIN
“Point being: there are a number of people on the boards behaving badly in various ways and NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.”
Laurel, you’re right about that, and I hope it’s going to change. But there are about a million better ways to deal with it than by sneaking in under cover of darkness and banning someone who pisses you off. Or did you think that would increase the peace somehow?
Do you really think Jon did it because there was too much bullying on ILX? Even after his Louis Jagger bully thread?
the next time this happens the culprit’s ISP should be informed that their EULA has been violated and given the necessary evidence to prove it.
right now, the mods have decided to leave the main board down instead of continuing to play whack-a-mole with probably further abuse of the old code, and have left the sandbox up for us to play in, so no loss really.
other than that there’s very little that’s pertinent at this time! ilx plays host to a number of terrible children, news to no one, ever, move along or get made fun of by bored civil servants!