nene made the most sense to me in that environment, where he could really run the break. dude was dropping atomic dunks on fools in that thunder series.
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:46 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
yeah I think nene is really mobile for a guy his size, very quick on his feet
“protecting the rim” is the most overvalued defensive skill there is.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:47 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
it is perhaps the most important thing in the entire nba, definitely by far the single most important thing a team can do defensively
btw, i think it really goes to show, for all his faults, how fucking incredible lebron james is, to have carried the cavs as far every year as he did every year. howard and the magic had that totally embarrassing first round loss last year, paul could basically never get out of the first round if he even made it in the playoffs, and wade couldn’t even win a playoff game after the 06 finals.
but i digress
drawing charges is protecting the rim. So are forcing missed layups. blocking shots is not “protecting the rim” but it’s what people mean by “protecting the rim.”
the one time that KG took the wolves past the first round, it was like we had cured AIDS or some shit
like deandre jordan is about to get paid a zillion dollars for “protecting the rim” but really he just blocks shots and doesn’t do anything else defensively. I would rather have a guy who blocks a third as many shots and is actually capable of locking someone down.
having a big man that stands near the basket preventing layups is undoubtedly the single biggest predictor of defensive success in the nba
undoubtedly!
i don’t think nene is truly max worthy, but honestly, a gasol/nene frontcourt was as good as houston was ever going to do, bcuz they’re never going to get one of these big stars, no matter how often their name is floated. they definitely could’ve built around that and made it to like the WCF one year.
locking people down is cool but defense the way its played in the nba today is a team operation, having a big man who can lock down the middle makes everyones job easier, ask ‘defensive genius’ bruce bowen abt that one
idk, i feel like tyson chandler’s effect on the finals was pretty minimal for a guy that’s about to get paid $50m for “protecting the rim”
“protecting the rim” is the most overvalued defensive skill there is.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:47 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
it is perhaps the most important thing in the entire nba, definitely by far the single most important thing a team can do defensively
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:48 AM (1 minute ago)
otm, look at the magic last year
Miami Heat’s awesome defense last year def. was based around Zydrunas.
the magic won two total playoff games fwiw
like deandre jordan is about to get paid a zillion dollars for “protecting the rim” but really he just blocks shots and doesn’t do anything else defensively. I would rather have a guy who blocks a third as many shots and is actually capable of locking someone down.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:51 AM (2 minutes ago)
nene can’t lock anyone down is the thing
“protecting the rim” is definitely important if you don’t really mean “blocking shots.” Blocking shots + Drawing charges, for example, is a much better metric.
well nene is pretty athletic, he’s a pretty decent defender i think
nene can’t lock anyone down is the thing
― k3vin k., Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:56 AM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
I just totally disagree.
the magic won two total playoff games fwiw
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:55 AM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
they were a top 3 in defensive efficiency while having only one above average defender on their team
the magic won two total playoff games fwiw
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:55 AM (1 minute ago)
they were like sixth in team defense and had like eight terrible defenders other than howard
howard is superman tho
i would say that that speaks more to the absurd talent of dwight howard
“protecting the rim” is definitely important if you don’t really mean “blocking shots.” Blocking shots + Drawing charges, for example, is a much better metric.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
yeah w/e blocking shots is a bullshit stat, charges is too, its abt making people miss or chose not to attempt layups, doesnt matter how you do it
i would say that that speaks more to the absurd talent of dwight howard
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:58 AM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
it speaks to both—like not even the best perimeter defender the world has ever seen could have that sort of effect on a team
ah ok I think we were talking past each other then. xp
well nene is pretty athletic, he’s a pretty decent defender i think
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
nene can’t lock anyone down is the thing
― k3vin k., Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:56 AM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
I just totally disagree.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (35 seconds ago)
the numbers agree with me—he can’t stop other centers for shit but his mobility and help defense make him a solid defender. he got murdered in the post last year
well tbf he’s a PF.
which is why he’s demanding to play the 4 wherever he goes this year.
he’s a very good player! but he certainly should be paired with a stronger defensive big if you’re going to maximize his value
he needs to be paired with a legit 7 footer.
Gasol is probably fine except against 3 or 4 teams.
When I see Nene I see a guy having a ton of success defensively except against a few 7 footers who are able to shoot over him too easily. against the shorter PFs he, yes, locks them down.
idk, i feel like tyson chandler’s effect on the finals was pretty minimal for a guy that’s about to get paid $50m for “protecting the rim”
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:54 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
he was so key! i mean i wouldnt pay him but thats more abt his age and injury history, if there was more likelihood that hed repeat that performance hes totally worth it—look at the nba champions from the last ten years—they all have one of these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions
I hope that the heat win a chip w/o having a legit big guy
Chandler was huge, for sure.
I hope that the heat win a chip w/o having a legit big guy
― dayo, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
its possible, but itd be a lot easier if they traded for howard
who were the big men on MJ’s teams? horace grant, rodman?
the mavs won bcuz of dirk & their three point shooting
the “big men win championships” thing is silly because, yeah most title teams have good big men. Most (more?) of them have elite 2 guards.
ESPNChrisPalmer chris palmer
Better forward combo than Dirk Nowitzki + Lamar Odom?
how dumb is this dude
xp LUC LONGLEY
you could’ve reduced chandler’s minutes by half and it wouldn’t have mattered — dude was getting swatted in the post by d wade
I can def see how w/ the proliferation of penetration-friendly rules you just need better rim protection period
lol how good was LUC LONGLEY in his prime tho? wasn’t he just a slow white guy xp
the “big men win championships” thing is silly because, yeah most title teams have good big men. Most (more?) of them have elite 2 guards.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (15 seconds ago)
this whole thing becomes sort of a tautology past a certain point
xp lol yeah he wasn’t that good
you need players, is what I’m saying. You got 3 studs, you’ll be there in the end.
who were the big men on MJ’s teams? horace grant, rodman?
― dayo, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
the “big men win championships” thing is silly because, yeah most title teams have good big men. Most (more?) of them have elite 2 guards.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
over the last ten years which is the most relevant comparison for how basketball is played now in the nba more of the champions have had defensively elite big men than elite two guards by far!
you could’ve reduced chandler’s minutes by half and it wouldn’t have mattered — dude was getting swatted in the post by d wade
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:11 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
you are being totally insane jordan, the mavs played really really good D all through out the playoffs, chandler was completely key to that
well i think the thing that throws this argument off is that the major championship teams of the past decade all had very important, good defensive big men, except basically it was just two players, shaq and tim duncan.
i think it shows us more that if you can get a historically good big man, you have a very good shot of winning the title. i’m not sure that you need some goon like tyson chandler who can’t do shit on offense.
so i mean yeah ppl should prob try and get dwight howard
over the last ten years which is the most relevant comparison for how basketball is played now in the nba more of the champions have had defensively elite big men than elite two guards by far!
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:13 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
manu, wade, kobe.
well i think the thing that throws this argument off is that the major championship teams of the past decade all had very important, good defensive big men, except basically it was just two players, shaq and tim duncan.
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:16 AM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
JORDAN, BEN WALLACE KEVIN GARNETT AND TYSON CHANDLER ARE ON THE PHONE FOR U
kevin garnett makes my point more than it makes yours — you should’ve said perkins or something
jordan was a big man?
also i think against elite opponents “rim protectors” are less important because of how often star players will get to the line — like it doesn’t matter if you have a “rim protector” vs the heat cuz wade & bron are gonna get to the line 30 times a game
a lot of rim protecting the rim that noah, gibson and asik did
what about the 04 pistons—sheed, wallace, who else? DARKO?
sorry I forgot ELDEN CAMPBELL
i think wallace’s impact was less about rim protecting and more about rebounding the shit out of the ball
prob say the same about chandler too
yeah let’s be real, noah is good and all, but the reason that team’s defense is sick is the perimeter D.
exactly—he was not a great shotblocker xp
over the last ten years which is the most relevant comparison for how basketball is played now in the nba more of the champions have had defensively elite big men than elite two guards by far!
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:13 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
manu, wade, kobe.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:17 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Permalink
1st of all manu was not by any measure elite in 03, 2nd it doesnt matter my point still stands—10 defensive big men in ten years, 6 elite shooting guards
btw i do think this comparison is so inexact as to be prob meaningless cause like some other team couldve easily won any of those year, but still its k interesting
kevin garnett makes my point more than it makes yours — you should’ve said perkins or something
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:18 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
a lot of rim protecting the rim that noah, gibson and asik did
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:19 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
now u are just being willfully inane
like, tyson chandler will make the knicks better, but the idea that he alone is going to cure all of their defensive ills is totally nuts
i think wallace’s impact was less about rim protecting and more about rebounding the shit out of the ball
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:22 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Permalink
ben wallace was a DOMINANT defender
garnett is obviously a great defender, but he’s also one of the best overall big men of all time — like, duh, he was on a really good championship team. “rim protecting” is prob like the 8th most important thing that he does.
no way defense is his strongest point by far
yeah let’s be real, noah is good and all, but the reason that team’s defense is sick is the perimeter D.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:22 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
bulls 2nd team was even better @ D than their first asik and gibson arguably the best interior D combo in the league
yeah but even “rim protecting” is not the most important thing that he does on D
disagree
bulls lost cause they only have one guy who can score, and cause bron hit a bunch of threes
it’s probably the worst thing he does on D!
lol ur nuts
bulls 2nd team was even better @ D than their first asik and gibson arguably the best interior D combo in the league
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:27 AM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark
this is true and amazing in the regular season but both of these guys ended up being liabilities vs the heat towards the end of the series bcuz they can’t do shit on offense and eventually will get called for mad fouls
he blocked .9 shots per game last year. Like Nene.
iirc at the end of game 6 they were playing kurt thomas at center
he’s averaged more steals than blocks in Boston.
even in minnesota his shotblocking and rim protecting was very disappointing considering his athletic gifts.
he blocked .9 shots per game last year. Like Nene.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:30 AM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
and he was also one million years old last year and played limited minutes
more steals than blocks in boston.
a one million year old KG would prob be one of the funniest ppl to talk to
disappointed there isn’t more valuable conversation about iman shumpert happening itt
Pau Gasol career bpg: 1.7
Kevin Garnett: 1.5
man either u think blocked shots is a relevant stat or you dont matt, blocks and steals are both great, he can do both—what id suggest is looking at how much better bostons D got when he arrived, its really quite shocking—and i can tell you as someone who watched a p high % of his games while he was there including nearly every one during the championship season, protecting the rim was his #1 defensive responsibility
dayo i told you basically all you need to know about iman shumpert — he might take 3 shots per game next season
man either u think blocked shots is a relevant stat or you dont matt, blocks and steals are both great, he can do both—what id suggest is looking at how much better bostons D got when he arrived, its really quite shocking—and i can tell you as someone who watched a p high % of his games while he was there including nearly every one during the championship season, protecting the rim was his #1 defensive responsibility
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:35 AM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
He’s a totally awesome full court defender. Protecting the rim is the least of his defensive assets.
possibly the only other defender who deterred layups better than garnett over the last 10+ years was duncan
j0rd ok, but I just want more excuses to see the name iman shumpert
it’s too bad that he’ll never make a basket ever cuz that’s a great marv albert name — “imaaan SHUMP-ert”
marv would really deliver that like someone punched him in the stomach right as he started to say his last name
how do you even pronounce his first name
possibly the only other defender who deterred layups better than garnett over the last 10+ years was duncan
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:36 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
just... no. I mean, even bogut with one arm is better than KG has ever been at protecting the rim.
oh I guess you mean another player who played over that span?
i guess teams not being able to score inside on the celtics right after garnett arrived was just ~magic~
Shaqtus definitely deterred more layups come on.
when did thibs coach for boston
shaq was sick for a while but then he got fat
shaq is the biggest human being ever, so that’s prob true