Paper!

I’ve noticed that some very boring places (e.g. suburban Connecticut) produce very creative people, although of course urban centers probably produce the lion’s share of arty types.

What was it about Athens, Georgia?

What’s that Orson Welles quote about Spain and teh cuckoo clock?

xpost

Does it just take a small group of with-it people who then spark something that grows?

Homosexuals.

ts: a diverse population vs a healthy middle class

x-post (or is it?) — Oh right, like ILX.

Double x-post actually.

er, make that Italy...

Also, is it the place and conditions of that place, or just the people who coincidentally live there? Is there really a London sound/style? A New York look?

Syphilis

I’ve never read this, but it seems like it would probably answer the question:

That book reads like a broken image.

Ahah, I was going to say “consumption”.

Hmmm, so it does. It was supposed to be Richard Florida’s The Rise of the Creative Class.

The thing with Athens seems pretty straightforward: loads of college students, but in a city “small” enough that they still have reason to organize their own arts stuff.

(There seems to be a kind of sweet spot with regard to size, where there’s enough people and space to support an arts scene, but it’s still small enough that e.g. college students can legitimately get really involved in organizing the stuff.)

Oh, also:

- notebooks

- a barn to have the musical in

Gee whillikers.

The key factor surely has to be organization — if there’s nobody around with any specific energy and way to harness it, nothing happens no matter how talented folks might be.

surplus food

For a very specific manifestation:

-record shops that sell used discs & local music

-radio stations that play local music

-enough venues that are easily accessible to both touring and local up & coming bands

-an alt-weekly

-cheap performance space

-a local university

I suspect that somebody like Jared Diamond would have much to say on the subject.

The key factor surely has to be organization — if there’s nobody around with any specific energy and way to harness it, nothing happens no matter how talented folks might be.

In my experience, this is something which is more a function of smaller towns rather than large cities.

People who grow up in the middle of nowhere seem to know that they have to create their own fun, and end up learning those organisational skills. People who grow up in big cities end up associating fun with something that someone else organises, and why do your own thing if there are a dozen other places in town you could go to for your aesthetic needs.

The best combination is people who have grown up in small scenes, but then “grow out” of them and go elsewhere, then do their own thing in a scene large enough to actually support it.

Is about 100,000 the best population for a creative little city?

I agree, Kate, but I wouldn’t say it’s just about learning how to create your own fun — organizing those sorts of things is actively harder in big cities. It’s not just that city folk never learned how to put stuff together, it’s that promoting an event in NYC is a whole different ball game than having a show in your basement in Colorado.

Though you’re right that people from a certain size town — not large, but not small — tend to be the ones who’ve been booking VFW shows since they were 14.

What is better for creativity: adversity or comfort?

I.e. better to be from the hood or from a university town?

I’ve got a show booked at the local Portuguese American Club tomorrow night—a ballyhootennany.

Just speaking of the VFW.

cheap rents, large spaces, weak code enforcement.

we have none of those things here, yet our local scene is not bad.

xpost

but we do have a great record store and a guy who brings musicians to perform there, and there used to be an all-ages coffee shop that had open mic (sorry, Beth) nights that were frankly painful but that gave up-and-comers a place to bring their scribbles and songs and that seems to have given wings to some people.

I just found myself gazing amorously at that pile of money.

There’s a great essay in the out-of-print Rolling Stone’s Alt-Rock-A-Rama about this kinda thing

Oh man, yeah, nothing helps like a cafe where people can get up and do not-so-good things without anyone minding — they get to develop, and people can actually be supportive of it, since no matter how bad it is, at least something’s happening.

When I moved to a small town in Michigan, a couple guys had also just gone there from Colorado, and started a cafe: within months, it had not only created its own social scene, but there were just more and more and more bands in town, just by virtue of having a place to play. By a couple years after they opened, all those bands had played off each other and traded members and developed to the point where a lot of them were doing surprisingly cool things.

PATRONS

yeah i think a third place sorta place (bar, cafe, bookstore) is a crucial factor.

cheap rents, large spaces, weak code enforcement.

— Brian Miller (yourjobisyourcredi...), February 16th, 2007 6:27 PM. (Brian Miller) (later) (link)

this is the most otm thing on this thread

also dead yuppie lawyers who leave behind stacks of money=always a good thing

Seconded

xpost

What about the visual arts? Is it safe to say that large, diverse, urban places are best for the visual arts? Or is it again a matter of wall space to show on?

wall space is incredibly important—and it’s very important that the space is taken seriously by the local artist/collector population. There can be an art gallery that’s not taken seriously can have much less impact than a coffee house that’s noted for showing good work.

that was a dud sentence but the meaning is there, sort of.

You probably also need lots of jobs for waiters.

good coffeeshops are essential

Does it just take a small group of with-it people who then spark something that grows?

This is the most important thing, I think. Like the brass band scene here in Madison WI, it just took a couple of dudes who started a band and stuck with it. Then some other dudes from that band started their own band and stuck with it, and now there are umpteen high school and college bands that only exist because they saw these older dudes doing it and got inspired.

xpost

lots of snooty galleries = death of spark

Lots of snooty galleries that show good work = spark!

You can pretty much judge a gallerie’s contribution to an art scene by how many art students come to the openings. Nobody under 22 = uh oh.

Yeah, actually snooty galleries are okay by me as long as their are not-so-snooty galleries around to balance them out.

Talent.

C’mon, that’s not actually true!

I suppose that depends on what the definition of “rich” is.

Rich kids who don’t have to hold down a supporting job x mentally unstable kids of any class.

= Providence

Shouldn’t it be, ideally, what rich breeding grounds are there for art/music/poetry?

The answers might not differ much.

I’ve got a show booked at the local Portuguese American Club tomorrow night—a ballyhootennany.

— Maria :D (mari...), February 16th, 2007.

you’re not in new beige, are you?!

because when i lived there, there wasn’t much happenin’ at all, but everyone talks about how much “potential” it has ...

nope, on mvi. but i always assumed new bedford had some kind of scene. Why not there?

the answer is........Momus

i second or third the cheapness factor. cheap rents are important if you want to create a scene of more than a couple of people. having said that, living cheaply can also cause stagnation. there is no pressure to produce anything. does that make sense? sometimes having too much time is too much time. pressure can be a good motivator.

yeah, i keep coming back to the thesis that some adversity is needed for art to have that edge I like.

sometimes it’s planners who recognize the creative life of the area and want to help the community cultivate it in a formal way, sometimes it’s economic development/business improvement district types who want a “downtown” feel and give incentives and encouragement to those types of businesses, sometimes it’s lenders willing to give low-interest small-business loans to a bunch of kids with no money and no experience.

MYSPACE

What about the availability of loft housing? cf Williamsburg + Providence

There’s a difference between a breeding ground and living/working space. Places like Athens and some big cities don’t so much breed artists as attract them.

They’re bred somewhere else. And I’d say that what’s essential to “breed” an artist is something to struggle against in early life.

It’s not quite as bad for performance artists, but for a lot of the solo arts, starting to live in a rich artist community can cause problems. Depends on how long they struggled, I suppose. And whether they built up enough emotional memory of it to keep them going, even if transplanted.