This is not a market. I mean, that’s another fundamental difference in opinion. The weight of posting on a topic is not indicative of worth or interest.
There are some subjects on which I’d rather have one post an hour, which was on topic and thought out—than 100 posts in a row of meaningless chatter and nastiness.
it wasn’t worth doing at all. unfunny for at least a year now.
not a week seems to go by on watercooler threads without some massive argument about what can and can’t be talked about on them.
the pringles is a zing? I thought it was just a kitten in a can
Enrique—I actually enjoy most of the threads I regularly read, which is why I resent them being littered with all this bollocks.
But yeah defending Mickey is just plain weird, he’s one of the people I genuinely would like to see banned.
i don’t understand your ‘Cooler threads at all Kate. When you first started them I was under the impression they were all about discussing all walks of life (like people supposedly do at office watercoolers) and they were honestly a good read, but over the past year you’ve morphed them into an unfriendly damp cave where people are only allowed to talk about what you want them to talk about—or they get shouted out.
It reminds me of that Twilight Zone movie where the kid had special powers and turned his house into a cartoon world, and nobody dared say anything against him.
i *might* be exaggerating a little there tho
the pringles is a zing? I thought it was just a kitten in a can
Sometimes I like to take a kitten in a can, chew it up, and use the resulting paste as a sandwich spread between two intact kittens in cans.
people not enjoying ILX who insist on sticking around = the real enemy
you can’t chew cans!
those pringle cans are just cardboard with some foil on them. sure you can.
i would just like to say that alex, i appreciate yr attempt to introduce some bromance into the proceedings here
It reminds me of that Twilight Zone movie where the kid had special powers and turned his house into a cartoon world, and nobody dared say anything against him.
I get this with Jon too, but it’s probably 50% projection (and he must surely expect it if not enjoy it).
i would just like to say that alex, i appreciate yr attempt to introduce some bromance into the proceedings here
Yeah, I forgot to say, that’s brilliant.
So you are basically saying you are the problem here, enrique?
no, sorry, it IS a market, and i don’t think that’s a difference of opinion, i think it’s just an accurate description of what happens. that doesn’t mean “weight of posting” (huh?). it means: undirected outcomes, lots of people each with different interests and competencies self-selecting their own participation.
Wow, all this happened while I was having my leisurely breakfast!
Happy Walentine’s Day, kids!
Since I succeeded in raising two boys to adulthood despite their regular efforts to kill each other, I hereby volunteer for the position of Thread Peacekeeper, using my awesome horse-whispering talents to bring the nasty aggression down to witty-repartee level.
I’ll need to draw a small stipend.
Paypal info to follow.
No, things that cannot be talked about on the Cooler are constant:
-Football/sport
-Big Brother/reality TV shows
That’s the point of them. If a person wishes to talk about those things, there are dozens of other threads on ILX on those subjects.
People may say that it’s random that I picked those two specific subjects to ban, but it’s not. Those are the things that people chatter about when they’ve got nothing else to talk about. The rest of the world—well, my bloody office, people in the pub and on the bus—I have to put up with it there, I want to just draw a line in the sand where I do not have to listen to it.
The early pre-cooler thread was an experiment to find out that if those “substitute for conversation” topics were banned, what would people talk about? Would they feel freer to talk about themselves and their own lives/concerns? What other things would people chat about? Now, obviously, it turned out to be a success, and there is a culture there which a lot of people enjoy and stay for—EVEN WHEN THEY DON’T LIKE ME. Funny, that.
As ILX has got nastier, I’ve got more defensive on them, yes.
And people have joined in the conversation/atmosphere who don’t understand the principles of why those certain things are banned, and then go off and start massive rows when asked not to talk about sport and/or reality TV programmes. Which again, makes me defensive that the ‘Cooler is getting ... *infected* with the whole culture it was trying to avoid.
xpost ...which implies conflict, and some people not getting exactly what they wanted, cos other people present didn’t give it to them.
I get this with Jon too, but it’s probably 50% projection (and he must surely expect it if not enjoy it).
Upset about locking bummers thread?
Jon used to RULE TEH WORLD more, but then we started posting lots of things like this:
So you are basically saying you are the problem here, enrique?
— Andrew Farrell (afarrel...), February 14th, 2007.
so much so i don’t even see the problem... jokes, but yeah i am a bit, but less than OTHERS I COULD NAME. i have no respect for this thread and the tired zingle i came up with was all it really deserved. note steve thought it’d be deleted, and i kinda did too.
-Football/sport
-Big Brother/reality TV shows
+
other people’s programming
computer games
other people having sex
etc.
basically anything that doesn’t interest you right? i mean why not just admit it?
Actually I’m kidding, I just wanted to use loki.jpg.
Can I re-state my call for powers to exile a coupla certain users into a Negative Zone?
plz show me where mark, tom or john stated they left ilx (oh wait mark & john still post, theyre just busy writing/touring respectively) cuz of zings?? tom has praised & loled at some of the most mean-spirited zings ever seen on ilx!!! with all three it was a either a more general decline in ilx or just a desire to break the addiction that led them away, not any intense moral outrage at jokes about ian-riese moraine banging his mom
Hey, I know I’m late to all this, but it’s a bit patronizing for all these people to keep bringing up Louis J as an example, because the truth of the matter is that (with the exception of the specific googlebait thread), he’s rolled with the punches just fine. In fact, I think he’s gotten to the point where he doesn’t mind the ribbing, and as one of the people that went after him in the beginning, I respect that, and actually like the guy at this point.
Which makes me think that all the hand-wringing about how poor LJ is a great example of the nasty dickishness of ILX not only bullshit, but insulting. It seems that he needs your hand-holding about as much as he needs serious advice on how to lead his love-life from you people. So, perhaps we can drop that trope, yes?
The early pre-cooler thread was an experiment to find out that if those “substitute for conversation” topics were banned, what would people talk about? Would they feel freer to talk about themselves and their own lives/concerns?
It’s not like ILE was wall to wall threads about sport and Big Brother ever. There must be more to it than this.
It seems fair enough to want to carve out little niches for ourselves and our friends/anyone who’ll play along, but when this happens I dislike the pretence that ILE has any real meaning still. It’s lost a lot of it’s value conceptually as a result.
May all being be happy.
It seems fair enough to want to carve out little niches for ourselves and our friends/anyone who’ll play along, but when this happens I dislike the pretence that ILE has any real meaning still. It’s lost a lot of it’s value conceptually as a result.
isn’t this what i just said re balkanization??
other people’s programming
computer games
other people having sex
etc.
Suggesting that there are other threads where people could get more helpful advice on programming is not the same as shouting at people.
Computer games come under sport, as far as I’m concerned.
Shouting at other people for having sex is so clearly a joke that I wouldn’t have thought even you would take it seriously, Stevem!
There are many times that I’ve suggested and/or “shouted” that people take a subject elsewhere, usually if I think it’s going to be a long and involved conversation. I do the same thing myself if I’m on a tear about Tiffany Lamps or Am I A Hott Scot Or Not (recent threads I have started so as not to bore the ‘Cooler with whatever has caught mine eye) and don’t think the general regulars are interested.
basically anything that doesn’t interest you right? i mean why not just admit it?
I do admite it! All the time! I’ve never been anything other than honest about them being threads FOR MY PLEASURE, INTEREST AND ENTERTAINMENT. It’s a wonder to me that other people post to them at all sometimes.
if people don’t like the atmosphere of the ‘Cooler, then there is a whole interweb of other threads out there that they could be enjoying and contributing to! This is not said with nastiness or elitism or anything else, but in the original ILX spirit of DO NOT READ IF YOU HATE US. Is that really so hard?
I know that I am unlikely to like the atmosphere or spirit of the Noize Board. Guess what? I don’t read it! Ditto football threads, big brother threads and threads about knitting!
the sandbox has come of age
....a long time ago prolly.
It was less the peaks than the constant rising background zing, Ethan. While we’re talking on behalf of other people, like.
And people have joined in the conversation/atmosphere who don’t understand the principles of why those certain things are banned
This is in fairness a retroactive application of (a quite interesting) principle—the only reason given until now was “Kate Said No”.
In fact, I think he’s gotten to the point where he doesn’t mind the ribbing
erm did you miss the whole googlebait episode then?
Knobheads. I forgot knobheads.
It’s not retroactive at all, Andrew. If Real ILX were up, I would link to “A thread which is not about football or about big brother...” or whatever it was called, from 2004 or thereabouts.
if people don’t like the atmosphere of the ‘Cooler, then there is a whole interweb of other threads out there that they could be enjoying and contributing to! This is not said with nastiness or elitism or anything else, but in the original ILX spirit of DO NOT READ IF YOU HATE US. Is that really so hard?
Which makes me think that all the hand-wringing about how poor LJ is a great example of the nasty dickishness of ILX not only bullshit, but insulting. It seems that he needs your hand-holding about as much as he needs serious advice on how to lead his love-life from you people. So, perhaps we can drop that trope, yes?
No, because for every Louis Jagger who makes a stand and fights on through all the bullshit and stays, there must be loads who read that sort of stuff and don’t ever post at all. I mean, sometimes 60% of traffic is from googlers, and they aint all stayin.
This is not said with nastiness or elitism or anything else, but in the original ILX spirit of DO NOT READ IF YOU HATE US. Is that really so hard?
DO NOT HATE IF THEY READ YOU, though!
‘do not read if you hate us’ was always a red rag to a colour blind bull.
i hope the guardian is getting all this down
Jon, take a good look at me. Then take a good look in that evil mirror, because I am exactly what you are going to look like in 10 or 20 years.
60% of traffic is from googlers, and they aint all stayin.
Because the coders and mods aren’t man enough to fight off spammers and locked unreg users.
And good people who leave almost immediately.
x-post to Stet.
because I am exactly what you are going to look like in 10 or 20 years.
Better hair and tits, but more pudge.
so why is sandbox ILM much less thready than ILE?
Because the coders and mods aren’t man enough to fight off spammers and locked unreg users.
Not 60% of posters, 60% of googlers. People who come to visit, take one look and run away again. Maybe pausing to beg for a guess paper, but.
HAAAAY WAY TO KEEP IT NOT PERSONAL. Both of you. XP
It was less the peaks than the constant rising background zing, Ethan. While we’re talking on behalf of other people, like.
oh, was it? when did any of those three people say this?
oh boy
xp
Because the coders and mods aren’t man enough to fight off spammers and locked unreg users.
oh does ILX still get spam? i haven’t seen any in months and months. and months. funny.
(JW and I are play-fighting. I think? At least I was, I have no idea if he’s being serious any more.)
“erm did you miss the whole googlebait episode then?”
Next time, try actually reading my whole post.
let’s try an unlocked ile on the new site
Ethan actually you’re right to an extent, it’s more a case of a getting tired of the thing for a variety of reasons but a constant level of meanspiritedness is certainly one of those in two out of the three cases. I’m bringing offboard conversations into this (in the pub for example) and bringing other people into this debate who wisely are staying out of it so I’ll stop now.
There’s a difference between laughing at the occasional well-timed zing (most people do this) and wanting to be in a place where it’s like that more often than not. Pretending that no intelligent or valued posters have ever been put off by a consistent bad atmosphere in parts of the boards is ridiculous.
fuck an unlocked. boohoo random googlers who can’t face the arudous process of logging in etc.
we shouldn’t have that argument again tho
x-post Kate has always made it clear about what the cooler is and isn’t. There’s definitely no hidden agenda.
But what you have got to get clear, Kate, is the difference between someone mentioning something verboten **in passing** and ‘turning the thread into a thread about that topic’.
A bit like when Boris Johnson played that football game and the clip was quite funny (and short)...
(checks to see which thread we are on. OK am in clear)
Maybe a lot of people are busy and check in now and again and find nothing to post about.
This is me, then every now and then I get lured in by a thread like this and have next to no idea what everyone’s on about.
No, because for every Louis Jagger who makes a stand and fights on through all the bullshit and stays, there must be loads who read that sort of stuff and don’t ever post at all. I mean, sometimes 60% of traffic is from googlers, and they aint all stayin.
This has been true from day one. Whether the reason is “I can’t post here, you’re all too intellectual” or “I can’t post here, you’re all too mean” or “I can’t post here, you all know each other”, the end result is the same; most random Googlers don’t post here. Unless you’ve been canvassing Googlers as to why they dip into ILX and don’t stick around, this is a wholly specious and misleading argument.
JW & KATE IN SANDBOX MEET CUTE SHOCKAH!
yes ILX has always been intimidating, tho the reasons for/causes of that may have changed along the way.
Surely there’s a difference between a site that’s too intellectual for people (oh noes) and one that’s too vicious for people? I’m not expecting all or even a majority of random googlers to stay, but it’s equally misleading to say “look! Louis got hounded and he stayed ergo nothing wrong with ILX online boxing club and gymnasium”
I was intimidated by ILX for years! This is why I didn’t post from 2001 until like 2005. And look ats me now.
This has been true from day one. Whether the reason is “I can’t post here, you’re all too intellectual” or “I can’t post here, you’re all too mean” or “I can’t post here, you all know each other”, the end result is the same; most random Googlers don’t post here.
This may sound elitist, but I’d rather have the googlers who can deal with the intellectualism or inside jokes than those who can deal with the meanness.
(x-post)
why did Robin Carmody leave? i like his apperances in old threads.
ILX: Algonquin Round Table of the Interweb
on a(nother pointless thread complaining) about how uncivilized and filled with old zings ilx is nowadays
This thread is a plea to people to not act like bullies when they’re not bullies. Very different.
as much as i love robin carmody im not sure his participation is the most accurate barometer of a functioning society
I mean, for me the intellectualism and lack of meanness is what separated (and still does) ILX from other boards I’ve seen.
(xx-post)
Surely there’s a difference between a site that’s too intellectual for people (oh noes) and one that’s too vicious for people? I’m not expecting all or even a majority of random googlers to stay, but it’s equally misleading to say “look! Louis got hounded and he stayed ergo nothing wrong with ILX online boxing club and gymnasium”
There is an inherent presumption here that people who can deal with environment X will behave like Y when introduced into it that I don’t agree with. I also think it’s incredibly disingenuous to expect that any community, whether it is online or in real life, will retain the same feel as time goes on unless said community features some level of brainwashing in its induction process.
I don’t think random googlers are going to land in Loius J threads generally, though? I would assume that most googlers are just sticking their favourite band names into google, or some bizarre random text string, or 0ink 1nvites or whatever (the search logs are often entertaining reading) that happens to throw up an ILX thread about that. Most of the time, I’d put money on the search being not exactly what they’re looking for, or too boring (to the outsider).
Robin C quit posting so much b/c there was a couple of regulars who were argumentative towards him in a way he didn’t like. This isn’t supposition, he told me this in an email. This was also a long, long time ago. I do miss Robin participating, I must admit.
I think that random googlers are more likely to be chased off by the chummy inside-jokeyness of ILX than the sniping. Shall we try to get rid of that as well?
xposts
BOXCAR BOXCAR BOXCAR
I also think it’s incredibly disingenuous to expect that any community, whether it is online or in real life, will retain the same feel as time goes on unless said community features some level of brainwashing in its induction process.
this is totally right and nothing else really needs to be said.
It’s totally right but it completely neglects the fact that most communities will implode unless core members take active steps to keep things good.
nothing else really
Do the people bringing up the “random Googlers” argument actually want every random Googler to join ILX or is this more of a “I don’t want to look bad on the Internet” argument? This is a serious question; the former stance doesn’t make sense to me but the latter does (even though I disagree with it).
xpost: Define “implode”.
I also think it’s incredibly disingenuous to expect that any community, whether it is online or in real life, will retain the same feel as time goes on unless said community features some level of brainwashing in its induction process.
Who’s asking for that? There seems to be a feeling that the place we’ve arrived at currently is overly vicious, and this thread was started to ask people not to be like that. It has nothing (in my mind, at least) to do with ye glory Greenspun days in the slightest.
Define “implode”.
Collapse. Whether it’s everyone leaving, or most people leaving and a core remaining.
Also: please define concept of “core members”
xposts
also think it’s incredibly disingenuous to expect that any community, whether it is online or in real life, will retain the same feel as time goes on unless said community features some level of brainwashing in its induction process.
You’re right, but unless one’s attitude is “nothing will ever change”, there’s some point in trying to bring up things people feel are making the community worse, and discuss whether or not something can or should be done about them. As we are doing now.
It has everything to do with “ye glory Greenspun days”! What are people comparing to if not that (or a period of time shortly after the initial migration, or some period of time after that; the exact period is not as important as the fact that people are comparing the way the board “used to be” with the way the board is “now”)?
xpost: Collapse. Whether it’s everyone leaving, or most people leaving and a core remaining.
What are you talking about??? ILE currently has well over 100 consistent, active posters every day; ditto ILM.
Do the people bringing up the “random Googlers” argument actually want every random Googler to join ILX or is this more of a “I don’t want to look bad on the Internet” argument?
Neither: I certainly don’t want every googler to join, or I’ll spend all my time looking up MySpace passwords; nor do I mind looking bad. What I don’t want is a forum that’s so vicious in parts that reasonable, intelligent people arrive and go “jesus! fuck this noise”, while a good portion of current members are hiding out in their “safe” threads. What is the point of that?
(Nor do I want the reverse, which is that it ends up attracting the type that are all “wayhey! get in, it’s a big pagga over here, I’ll join, HAY FUK U ALL”)
Core members—people who care about the community enough to be willing to contribute time/money/effort, whatever’s required, to sort out the problems. Examples: all the mods and coders; everyone who gave in the donation drive; even people like Jon count here in the formation of the NB. In a less tangible way, the core members are the ones who contribute good content to the threads, are welcoming to newcomers, help out people who ask questions or need consoling.
ILE currently has well over 100 consistent, active posters every day; ditto ILM.
Yeh, and there’s over 20,000 readers every day. You’d expect more of them would want to say something
We’re probably lucky that they don’t? Isn’t that the point of googlers?
x-post—that’s the majority of people who post—it’s self-determining as it essentially means the people who are bothered whether the place remains healthy and positive rather than those who don’t give a fuck.
It’s good that we don’t have 20,000 active posters, yes?
this random googlers argument would only make sense if the new crop of posters latching onto ilx in the past year or so were vicious internet hatemongers instead of the most pussified herbs ive ever seen
how many of them are spambots?
What I don’t want is a forum that’s so vicious in parts that reasonable, intelligent people arrive and go “jesus! fuck this noise”, while a good portion of current members are hiding out in their “safe” threads. What is the point of that?
The point is that people are finding spaces where they feel comfortable participating. I’ve always hated this argument because the not-so-subtle subtext is “I find all of you boring/unworthy, I wish some interesting people would show up/my real friends would come back.” However, because no one wants to look bad, no one wants to come out and say that.
You can’t have a forum that is wide open to anyone who wants to participate and then complain because it isn’t attracting “the right people”; either the forum itself has to change so you can control who has access to it and how they post (or the forum has controls that let you filter the content to your liking, if you don’t want to be draconian) or you take the good with the bad.
It has everything to do with “ye glory Greenspun days”! What are people comparing to if not that (or a period of time shortly after the initial migration, or some period of time after that; the exact period is not as important as the fact that people are comparing the way the board “used to be” with the way the board is “now”)?
Because the arguments (well, some of them :) are equally good if you’re comparing to “the way we think the board could be”.
xpost to Laurel: Yes, we probably are! They would kill the HipHop in the 90s thread, for a start (over 30% of traffic on some days!)
how many of them are spambots?
Not terribly many, actually. They’re quite a lot of traffic, but they aren’t great in number.
Yeh, and there’s over 20,000 readers every day. You’d expect more of them would want to say something
No you wouldn’t! That’s like expecting every person who reads a random online article/blog is going to fill out the comment form!
Yeh, and there’s over 20,000 readers every day. You’d expect more of them would want to say something.
I don’t know if anything can be read into that, though, Stet. When the AHOT list was at its peak, there were 500+ ppl subscribed, about 30–40 of whom ever posted at all Likewise AH, that still has I believe over 1000 subscribers, I see the same names posting, def less that 50, TGS is down to ~10 regular posters, everytime I look at it I see loads of usernames in the “now online” (ie ppl who’ve actually taken the time to register in that case) box most of whom never post. I don’t get the mentality myself, but the figure/ratio quoted does not surprise me at all.
Also, “good content”? Who is the arbiter of “good content”?
We are the worlds greatest dysfunctional soap opera. I think I should die and come back as my evil twin brother.
Also, “good content”? Who is the arbiter of “good content”?
google pagerank
tv guide has over 9 million readers but only about 30 people writing for it