Arguers also often link the slippery slope fallacy to the straw man fallacy in order to attack the initial position:
1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)
This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.
Note that these arguments may indeed have validity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious.
It’s my fault everyone, I baited the libertarian!
I’m not 100% against government involvement in things like pollution(dumping, factory emissions, things that affect large areas)
i am shocked—SHOCKED—that you support government interaction in regulating harmful emissions you have nothing to do with, yet oppose it regulating harmful emissions that you personally enjoy
you, sir, are a true patriot
hey I don’t see this in my tv listings. I don’t see any half-hour fox news show.
and in the future is in part fault of ‘trade’ with china. (
WOW you don’t know anything about international economics or the realities of global trade.
GZeus I have a song for you? Have you heard it??!?!?!?
Some people must have.
Some people have not.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
Some people will work.
Some simply will not.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
Like this: It’s society’s fault I don’t have a job.
It’s society’s fault I am a slob.
I have potential no one can see.
Give me welfare. Let me be me!
Hey, Bud, you’re livin’ in the Land of the Free.
No one’s gonna hand you opportunity!
Some people must have.
Some never will.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
I don’t have a house. I don’t have a car.
I spend all my money getting’ drunk in a bar.
I wanna be rich. I don’t have a brain.
Just give me a handout while I complain.
Or this: I wanna stay in bed and watch TV.
Go out weekends in a limousine
And dance all night takin’ lots of drugs
And wake up when I wanna.
Hey, Bud, you’re livin’ in the Land of the Free.
No one’s gonna hand you opportunity!
Some people will learn.
Some never do.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
Yeah, they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
I think the GZeus is a Libertarian because he wants to buy Japan-only hentai PS2 games and the modchips to play them from Lik Sang.
Also — why are most Libertarians male (aynrandorly.jpg)?
“Citizenship is for suckers.”
WTF: Brian Unger is on this thing?!
He’s a whore on the level of Mo Rocca, this is not that surprising.
thanks for killing thread, defensive libertarian man.
things that make me sad:
1. that people really believe jimmy fallon brought the roffles over tina fey
2. bhopal
3. smart people wasting their time arguing with the funtionally retarded.
1. that people really believe jimmy fallon brought the roffles over tina fey
SRSLY. The only thing he ever did on that show is giggle and bat his eyes coyly at the camera.
Gosh that article pretty much sums it up. I’m considering printing it in pamphlet form.
guys seriously
1. do not EVER contest anything The GZeus says (cf. IMM, ILG, countless examples)
2. I will teach anybody how to install and run the killfile in firefox ok? I should write up a howto and post it to a thread.
I still want Negative Zone capability
Ok, I’m not agruing a slippery slope argument. I’m arguing an open door argument.
The anti-smoking legislations(I DON’T SMOKE) open a door that later a lawmaker COULD walk through.
I simply don’t want that option there. The 20 year journey was intended to be the minimum time to get there. Honestly sorry I didn’t specify that.
“WOW you don’t know anything about international economics or the realities of global trade.”
So the complete debasement of the manufacturing base in the USA has nothing to do with everything saying “made in china” on it?
I thought people in this thread would be against big busiess CEOs getting richer as they lay off their union workers to put shildren to work.
“I think the GZeus is a Libertarian because he wants to buy Japan-only hentai PS2 games and the modchips to play them from Lik Sang.”
Buh?
I don’t have a PS2(kinda want one, but only for Katamari) and I was against Sony’s actions because they(I believe unlawfully) interfered with free trade.
I don’t buy from china if it’s reasonably possible, in fact.
H-games are boring as hell, dude. I used to hit keys at random to ‘play’ one of them yars back before I could read japanese. Once I could read the dialogue I realised that the story I thought it in had was false and it was in fact retarded. (stunted, emotionally and socially, but I won’t get into why)
Please excuse this rambling bumbling post but I don’t like walking away from misunderstandings or weird slander.
oh yeah, and MY BEAUTIFUL THREAD LOOK WHAT YOU’VE DONE TO DO NOOOOO THEY BE STEALIN’ MY BUCKET etc etc etc
how do anti-smoking regulations open a door for tyranny in a way that any other regulation dont?
other regulations
Weird slander is the worst kind of slander there is.
Government shouldn’t be telling restaurants what to do. Fuckin’ health code is a sham. If I want to get poisoned at Chevy’s by all rights I should be able to chose to do so.
they be stealin’ kingfish’s bucket. :(
Can we outlaw the wearing of those stupid Chevy’s sombreros by office mates? I normally support the rights of hat-wearers, but we all must have limits.
THAT’S AN OPEN DOOR TO FACISM KINGFISH!
I know I shouldn’t but:
GZeus, do you know that modern anti-smoking legislation—in every municipality and country where it’s been adopted—has its foundation and justification in workplace health and safety? The “door” that was left open for this legislation to walk through was won over the last century in a disparate, gruelling set of battles to secure the right of workers to not be driven to an early grave simply because of the place they work.
What kind of door does it open, what kind of PRECEDENT does it set, to say that some lines of work are simply not deserving of workplace health safeguards? Because they are “dives”, or unsavoury, or whatever other reason, big or small?
Moussilini woulda made those sombreros run on time, i tells ya!
I’m sorry about that, but while my posts are larger than the sophooric attacks on my character/ideas they are outnumbered.
All I said was “I;m a libertarian’ and then I get called a republican in denial.
I don’t care if that’s supposed to be a joke\, it’s not funny.
Republican=insult right there.
denial=lieing to oneself. I don’t take well to being called a liar.
/\that’s a list. They should be seperated by enter keys. Would you like me to add the HTML code to put bullet points? Wait, I suck at HTML...
Name other regularions that prevent people in a private establishment from doing something legal just because other people don’t like it.
It gives a little wiggle room for crazy people to argue things like no gay kissing in public(this was argued somewhere in the USA a few years ago, I think). Such things wouldn’t pass in the current political environment, but it would caus more mudslinging, erbal battles, and trench digging on both sides.
In the future that sort of thing might pass in some city, on the grounds it’s bad for these good christian children as it;s against their relgion, and it impedes on their rights to live in a sin-free environment.
I’m going a bit far, but it’s intentional and done to make a point.
Have you seen the filtration systems in current restaraunts? The distance between smoking and non? The fact the cigars and ‘aromatic’(fucking vague enough to include about anything strong) cigarettes were already banned by the restaraunts and bars themselves?
And yeah, the audience a dive bar caters to smokes.
If you don’t want to be around smoke don’t work in a place that caters to smokers. That’s basic logic, that.
People are also more prone to smoke when the drink(many theories as to why, I’m sure) so ...repeat.
Don’t get in a boxing ring if you don’t want to get hit.
This is not legislation of employees/workers in a workplace, it’s legislation of CUSTOMERS.
Of THE PUBLIC.
There is a difference, though not enough for me to back the anti workplace smoking laws. Why not repeal them? What company’s workers would allow their company to go back? What company would be crazy enough?
Basically the motivation I see is that anti-smokers got impatient and couldn’t wait for the eventuality of restaraunts doing this themselves and decided to force the issue.
“Name other regularions that prevent people in a private establishment from doing something legal just because other people don’t like it.”
Um you don’t think it has more to do with established health risks of second hand smoke more than “just not liking it”?
To be fair some people may think that watching same-sex kisses causes cancer though.
This is not legislation of employees/workers in a workplace, it’s legislation of CUSTOMERS.
Read the legislation. It has nothing to do with customers. It has to do with workers and their right to have a full career in their place of employment without going to an early grave. It’s that simple and yes, there is a difference between that and legislating what customers can or can’t do with their own bodies. Because that’s not the point. Note that cigarettes remain legal.
Don’t get in a boxing ring if you don’t want to get hit.
And don’t smoke in a New York restaurant, bar or club if you don’t want to get thrown out. When in Rome...
Does he not understand the idea of precedent?
BTW I just watched these two clips and this show is painfully painfully unfunny. I can’t believe that this will really be aired.
I’m not 100% against government involvement in things like pollution(dumping, factory emissions, things that affect large areas) or fair labor practices(minimum wage, required to carry workers comp).
^^ whats your take on workers comp for employees who get cancer which couldve been easily prevented with a regulation of cancer-causing substances in their place of employment?
That sets a dangerous precedent that will lead to the government aborting all black babies.
Or his take on people who work the concession stand at a boxing match. Maybe their bosses should be able to just hit them as hard as they can, from time to time.
hahahaha actually i support that
“Um you don’t think it has more to do with established health risks of second hand smoke more than ”just not liking it“?”
That’s why yu don’t like it, fine, but it’s legal, and you CAN walk away.
Second-hand smoke has some corellary relationships with certain health contitions.
Thus it’s shown to increase risks. it doesn’t cause anything, and alot of those studies are tennuous.
Futhermore: auto shop. Tell me how to get the work needed to get done there done in the winter without getting even more carcinogen exposure.
Workplace hazard. Goes with the territory.
I’ve already said this isn’t a slippery slope argument.
The boxing RING analogy is an exageration to make a point.
In Japan there are no smoking bans, to my knowledge, other than on the trains. The shinkansen has a few smoking cars, though.
Thing is, more and more places have either no smoking at all, or a seperate room.
Still more smoking there than here, but it’s not in style any more, and is just fading out.
Ya couldn’t wait?
Second-hand smoke has some corellary relationships with certain health contitions.
Thus it’s shown to increase risks. it doesn’t cause anything, and alot of those studies are tennuous.
wow
it’s legal, and you CAN walk away.
Not if you work there! Unless you’re ready to get fired. And then go work at one of those non-smoking bars that you have already said don’t exist.
i feel like we’re witnessing the finale of some flowers for algernon scenario here
This guy must work for Phillip Morris.
You know, I think Some People just can’t get their heads around the idea that some people are bartenders and actually like it, and are proud of it, and probably if they thought about it enough don’t want to die 15 years before their spouses do. It reminds me a lot of the NYC transit strike, when people were like “wait a minute, these drivers make $65,000 a year??!” as if that was some ridiculously inflated salary for what they do. As if people doing these “dirty” jobs are just not entitled to expect what others expect for similar work.
The air in bars is crappy enough without having to breath cigarette smoke frankly.
i feel like we’re witnessing the finale of some flowers for algernon scenario here
— and what (an...), Today. (later)
lol
There’s that, and also the lowest common denom or deflation of salaries. I.e. people getting all mad at folks who actually make a good living when they themselves work at a place with shit wages.
The anger gets redirected towards the people making a living wage, not at the companies lowballing the pay rates(and supporting politicos and pundits who go on about how the min.wage will destroy business, bring on communism, violate your daughters, etc)
xp
ok, it’s already been established you have a CHOICE of workplace and if you chose to work in a bar, that’s YOUR problem.
Other place doesn’t pay as much? Suck it up or start a business.
Know why non-smoking bars didn’t exist? people didn’t want them.
However, non-smoking restaraunts that sevre liqour did.
Oh, and yes, I do just want the last word at this point. I can agree to disagree, but not to people calling me stupid because they disagree.
63k is actually a barely managable wage for people who actually want to retire, and I think the fact that people somehow still think 30k a year will cut is really sad.
No one saves money ay more, we’re all in debt up to our eyeballs, and we still can’t see something that simple...
I know some people who are bartenders and like it.
They knew the industry they were getting into, and half of them already smoked. The other half were annoyed at the drop in cigarettes sales and number of customers.
GZeus I could count the number of bartenders in New York who are really fed up about the smoking ban on one hand. The vast, vast majority love it.
my only thing with the smoking ban is that I think it should legislated differently. Like, fuck a ban, and fines that go to the city. Send the atty generals of a few states after some places that are going out of business anyway—set a precedent for later class-action civil suits, put the liability on the bars, but let them take their chances. Most places would self-enforce. Smoking bars would be staffed by smoking bartenders. The End.
“They knew the industry they were getting into, and half of them already smoked. The other half were annoyed at the drop in cigarettes sales and number of customers.”
I call bullshit.
How would you assess liability for somebody who worked for a place for like, a year and a half before moving on to another bar, though?
I would totally be in favor of places being able to apply for hugely expensive smoking licenses, in the same way dance clubs or carnivals have to get extra permits. And the establishment would be obligated to pay for really good health-care (the same way other high-risk workplaces do). You could have these, like, smoking EMPORIA.
“GZeus I could count the number of bartenders in New York who are really fed up about the smoking ban on one hand. The vast, vast majority love it.”
I don’t live in New York.
I would have been fine with tax breaks for non-smoking bars.
I would totally be in favor of places being able to apply for hugely expensive smoking licenses, in the same way dance clubs or carnivals have to get extra permits. And the establishment would be obligated to pay for really good health-care (the same way other high-risk workplaces do). You could have these, like, smoking EMPORIA.
— Euai Kapaui (tracerhan...)
this is otm
So uh, that clip is really amazingly unfunny.
There are places where they’re allowed to smoke still and sell beer, btw. in wicker park there’s this smoking lounge run by phillip morris
Yeah I think in SF if everyone who works in a bar is a part owner and they have voted to allow smoking that it is allowed. There are a couple of establishments like that.
Wow, something I like in CA... Cool.
Could we get back to talking about this toilet of a TV show? I think both sides have said their peice.
What is to say? It’s awful.
Like, so bad it’s not even laugh AT-able?
If that’s true, then I’m glad I didn’t watch those clips. I assumed they’d get me fuming, and sounds like I was right.
if everyone who works in a bar is a part owner and they have voted to allow smoking that it is allowed.
I would be surprised if that’s the case. If so, it shows how pathetic the demand from bartenders themselves is to keep smoking going in most places. (I would be very interested in the mechanics of the “vote” at a bar run by Philip Morris).
I suspect that instead it’s like NYC, where as long as at least 10% of the establishment’s receipts are from tobacco you can smoke to your heart’s content. i.e. you are a CUSTOMER for the product, rather than bringing it in with you.
I wonder how GZeus feels about the longstanding smoking ban in cinemas. Those places used to be a smoker’s paradise.
proactive vs. reactive
Any reaction from Stewart or Colbert yet?
(xpost)It’s so bad, it’s just uncomfortable to watch. It’s to stupid to get anyone mad and the ohmigod I can’t believe someone made something so crap laughs don’t last more than a few seconds.
daily show no longer on youtube?
still listed as running next weekend.
more here. Includes a 2nd YT vid, “where the show’s producers discuss who might be offended at it.”
“I would be surprised if that’s the case. If so, it shows how pathetic the demand from bartenders themselves is to keep smoking going in most places.”
It is the case. Or at least according to the owner of Amber (in SF), it’s the case. There is one other place that is run the same way, I think (the Phonebooth maybe?)
Saw a brief segment about this on the news last night. They sat some Young Repubs. president in front of it, and when a zinger like, “OMG Obama popularity ratings among Dems down to all-time low of 99.9%!!!1” he turned to the camera, slight smirk on his face, and say, “That was funny!” — without laughing.
isn’t this going to give people a nice easy way of attacking Fox News over being “fair and balanced”?
OBAMA MORE LIKE OSAMA
Barack Obama? More like Black Osama!
The racial stuff in that clip is disgusting—marion barry, ‘who’s more diverse’ w/ tiger woods article, etc
the cover story of “about that ‘hussein’ thing” was one of the worst things. I mean, what about it? Next episode: Michael Moore is fat.
tombot: i appreciate all the time you took to help ppl with killfile in the sandbox, but i’m currently really glad i didnt use it.
Ann Coulter’s line at the end was a little funny.
because its true
god neither of these clips resembles anything close to proper satire. and the stuff being telegraphed in the obama bit is absolutely insane! like, unless you’re a fucking flat-out racist, why else would the *extent* of the democratic love affair with obama be funny on it’s own? and the limbaugh/coulter thing, that’s satire how exactly? that republicans are supposed to find the prospect of those two in power somehow FUNNY = their idea of humor is actually pretty nervous and self-consoling
If the democrats were fucking as badly as them, do you think it’d be any different? (of course, liberals are intrinsically somewhat funnier tho)
democrats fuck badly?
Bubba was pretty good at it by all accounts
liberals are intrinsically somewhat funnier tho
liberals = better educated
smarter people “get” more jokes, tell better jokes
Suck on THAT stereotype, red-staters!
vs
(of course, their lines were written by left-leaning folks on tv shows created by left-leaning folks)
I was gonna say.
Kelsey Grammar is a rightwing asshole
Wasn’t the dude who played Bunker a left winger?
Kelsey Grammer read whatever lines were put into his mouth for a paycheck.
and if i need to be head-trauma-inducing obvious, i meant the characters, not the actors, obv.
thus the contrast of niles vs archie
Bubba was pretty good at it by all accounts
LOL a++
Smoking bans in cinemas(theaters in the USA. We spell the wrong word incorrectly, like English wasn’t complicated already. Joy -_-) is something I’m all for, if it’s done by the owner.
It’s actually interferes with the projection. That’s fucking STUPID. “Well, I think I’ll ruin this movie in general so I can relax a little more...”
I’m all for there being non-smoking establishments. Even that being the majority! I mean, most people don’t smoke. It just makes sense for smokers to have fewer places to go.
Thing is, if I’m going to see a noise band in a dive bar, what happens is 50%+ of the audience is rotating 5–15 peoplee at a time in and out the door, getting more and more annoyed.
It actually never bothered me that much(I kinda like the cold and how that neighborhood looks) but other people tended to get sick of trying to mark their territory, protect their drinks, take turns being the chair-watcher and spending alot less time listening to the music.
That’s the only personal problem I have. It just makes me sad to see bands I like miss out being heard.
But it was more what I mentioned earlier.
I’d prefer to play in a place that allows smoking. it’s the audience I want to play for. *shrugs* I have to sellte for the place where the most people are standing outside in the dead of winter ;)
Oh good lord that Limbaugh clip is bad—it’s like a sketch some staffers would do write for a political fundraising dinner.
“Andy Rooney”
Good point. I ramble like an old man.... -_-
GAY PENGUINS!!!
I’d prefer to play in a place that allows smoking. it’s the audience I want to play for.
I wasn’t aware smokers were a separate audience.
He’s just saying he doesn’t want people leaving during his show.
MAYBE HE SHOULD SUCK LESS THEN AMIRITE?
(kidding)