Yes, finding something profound (ie, non-banal) in something banal is interesting. But simply reproducing banality, not.

xpost—this is a corollary to what Jenny just said.

I grok the concept and I can think of examples of most of those variations, but I cannot abide movies that follow that model. Or books, for that matter. XXXXP

Mamet is interesting. He writes “realistic” dialogue that nonetheless frequently sounds mannered. There’s something incredibly compelling about it.

I mean, it sounds like what John is talking about is a movie of a guy talking on a cell phone about the same crap we all talk about on our cell phones, not a guy having a conversation that is banal on the surface but is designed to support and develop some great conflict.

Amen, sister act. Amen.

Also, it’s only the gigantically obvious self-consciousness that makes HH movies attractive to me, probably...? Because, tho I haven’t seen any lately, I recollect that he does extremely stylized banality quite a lot, too, but it’s SO ENORMOUSLY DEADPAN that you’re waiting for the ball to drop ALL THE TIME.

Jenny and Jesse may be right about this. It’s probably why I never wrote a successful play that put my predilections for banality into practice. When I took a playwriting course in college, I was miserable, because I felt like the professor (Von Washington, what up) cared WAY too much about plot and conflict, and I was like “b-b-b-but Robert Altman, Mike Leigh, etc.” (Dan’s comment about improv probably OTM here) — and in the end, I wrote a perfectly well-made dramatic play that I have no affection for whatsoever.

The tension itself just becomes hilarious after about 20 minutes. XP to me.

Mamet’s incredibly mannered. He uses rhythms and grammar that come from the Chicago dialect, but he does it so specifically that it can be distracting (especially when he directs his own work).

I just saw this movie version of his play Edmond on New Years Eve, with WH Macy and Julia Stiles and others, and since someone else directed it the dialogue is less distracting than usually and it’s easier to get caught up in the characters instead of thinking about the author. (It’s really much better than I’d expected—and a few of the scenes are absolutely perfect as individual scenes.)

xpost- One dramamtic trick, though, Jenny, is to hide the drama in a banal situation. Like—the guy on the cell phone could be talking to the surgeon who is operating on his daughter in an hour—that’s dramatic. Or he could be talking with the guy fixing the stucco on his house, and somehow from that “ordinary” conversation, something profound about the guy’s life happens. If he doesn’t change by the end, that’s bad drama—but sometimes our lives change dramatically from a moment that seemed boring.

Said playwriting prof:

I hear you Eric. xp

I wrote a short play a few years ago about a late-night college-radio DJ, and the whole point of it is that she’s trying to cover up her emotions in order to do her job. And so she’s trying to be banal (unemotional), and it doesn’t work out. But by the end, when she reads the weather or says ‘um’, those should be the most compelling parts—not when she speaks all poetically, which is just her trying and failing to do her job.

Yeah, I love that play.

Although, to John, I think that Altman (I don’t know about the other person you mentioned) does more what Eric said—he allows for banal-seeming dialog that actually leads to profound things. It’s not just purposeless banality.

Aren’t there some web comics (or print, I dunno) that put principles more like what John is talking about into practice? I might be thinking of the Itchy and Scratchy lemonade cartoon that someone quoted on the banal conversation thread, but I can totally see a four panel comic in which two characters have a totally pointless and boring conversation.

Near-topic: The Brown Bunny (at least up till the end) was supposed to be an exploration of the tedium of driving cross-country—though cut with weird, silent making out—but it refused to do its part in the exploration. It was lazy “art” that is supposedly engaging the viewers by making them use their imaginations, but it’s really just slack slapping together of bits of video. (I actually found some of the road shots really interesting on their own, but in context, really boring.)

Jenny: I don’t think I actually want to have the completely pointless banal conversation. I think I just love the banal elements, the verite style, so much that I let that overwhelm my sense about what’s actually great about what I’m seeing. I don’t know how to properly integrate them (not that I’ve actually tried writing a play in YEARS — which makes me sad). For instance, I love in EZ’s play how she says “famous whatever” — I love how she doesn’t finish, how she can’t be articulate, how she stumbles over the words, just like anyone would — but at the same time, the real powerful dramatic moment of the play, if you’ve ever seen it performed or on film, is how the “I’m so fucking sad” comes out unannounced, and it pierces.

I actually found some of the road shots really interesting on their own, but in context, really boring.

I don’t understand this. I found some of the road shots really interesting, too: the Gordon Lightfoot song soundtracking rain on a windshield is particularly beautiful — but I don’t see how the “context” takes away from the beauty. What is the context, anyway?

The David Lynch cartoon about the meanest dog in the world definitely does that. He just sits in the yard on his chain and growls, and then the sun goes down and that’s it.

The Brown Bunny is an interesting example of seeing a guy do very little for a long, long time, but then at the end you understand the circumstances. If it didn’t have the payoff, it would be more like a travelogue than anything else. Which, if the scenery was pretty...

x-post—Jesse beat me to it!

I like Eric’s premise for a movie, the guy standing in the high rise talking on the phone for 90 minutes. It would be a like a modern day more solitary version of rear window. There would be no interacting with any one in person. I wouldn’t want to hear the other side of the conversation. I would make a majority of the film POV, peering into other people’s office windows, looking at the activity on the street. It would all work with his conversation on the phone, sometimes relevant, sometimes not. The film would be stylized to an extent, by having the camera have better vision than the man actually has. The detail that he sees out the window would be important.

I really like the POV idea. Maybe we wouldn’t even see the man, just hear his voice — which might make it seem more intimate.

Hence my earlier question about whether we would see what was going on outside the window, sort of.

You’re right—you don’t even need to see the guy’s face, really. Just an establishing shot in the office, something against the glass, and then whatever he sees out the window during the conversation. And with all the HD stuff now (used in the night shots in Collateral), the details could be really beautiful.

Then you could overdub all the audio without even having to worry about matching dialogue to mouth movements.

The context of... endless road shots followed by a so-so payoff with the gratuitous BJ and twist ending. The road shots were not intersting enough to take up as much time as they did and it did not need to be a feature-length movie. I can’t imagine how tedious it would have been in the uncut Cannes version that Roger Ebert talked shit about.

Elephant, Last Days, and United 93 were all interestingly antidramatic movies—those three all have really compellingly banal situations and dialogue. Seeing someone eat a meal or talk about ‘whatever’ underscores the lack of fate or destiny in any of those situations.

Yeah, The Brown Bunny didn’t really add up for me, but I can’t deny that I enjoyed watching it — much more so than Gerry, at least.

And yes, good call on all of those, Eric. I’d also add Bully, which demonstrated the banality of evil more provocatively than anything else I can think of.

I mean, those three films have really artful banality—the scenes have no great subtext or tension to them, and the effect is stronger (to me, anyway) than if there were dramatic storylines (star-crossed lovers and all) that reached a confluence when the big dramatic event happens. Instead, the stakes are low, which is more believable and powerful.

Not to continue this conversation forever, but it’d be interested to get Amanda’s fella’s take on this — because, in making a documentary, you really can just capture ordinary moments, if you want, without creating a dramatic arc or storyline. Frederick Weisman’s movies are incredibly banal but also edited in a way that they really give you a sense of their subject matter. Sh3rrif is kind of halfway between Weisman and Cops as far as banality-vs.-action.

I think United 93 is also powerful in part because of the dramatic disconnect between the viewer’s knowledge of “OMG 9/11 WTF” and the film’s subjects working like it was any other day, cracking jokes, making coffee, etc.

Not to continue this conversation forever

I want to continue this over drinks. Because I want to make this movie.

dudes, do it!

I’m heading out in a few mins too, but let’s.

You’re right, J.—all three of those are OMG 9/11, OMG COLUMBUINE, OMG ROCK-STAR SUICIDE, ho-de-hum, breakfast, etc. With no other competing dramatic storylines (kid dying of cancer, couple fighting, whatever), which I love.

OTM. If Brown Bunny’s outcome had been clear at the beginning then the rest of the movie would actually have been really great. It might have had to have been a little more dramatic than a overdose (right?) but still, it would have helped. But the banality continued right through to the end, even to the point that Sevigny is smoking pot (as opposed to harder drugs or doing something more interesting) and Gallo is whining, “Why do you drink and do drugs?”

Never a sense of something looming.

So little depends

upon the Brown Bunny

driving across the country.

john & jon, sorry, didn’t see your txt until about 2:30 on friday night. i was with some people who were thinking about going up there but we couldn’t come up with a compelling enough reason.

my loss i’m sure.

Although it strikes me that the something-looming contexts in the three movies EZ names are somewhat dependent on a knowledge going in: I mean, I think it’s hard to avoid with United 93 — there’s probably even a “September 11, 2001” title at the beginning — but with the Van Sant films, isn’t the something-looming precisely because we already know (from reading reviews or whatever) that we’re watching his Columbine movie or his Kurt Cobain movie? Is any of that spelled out within the film itself?

xpost: Otto, it’s cool — I only ended up staying there for about 15 minutes, just long enough to meet Jon. I did run into an ex-co-worker of mine, though.

I finally put a note on my water bottle that says POR FAVOR, ¡NO LO BOTES!

If they throw this one out, I’m going on a rampage. I don’t have $1.69 to spend on Nantucket Nectars every other day.

Get one:

No.

Or you could write “No es basura”, John. That’s what my Chicano colleague said to put on my cup when it was getting thrown out.

Get one:

2x, just don’t get the narrow mouth kind like the one in the picture because you can’t fit 1. ice cubes through it and 2. a water purifier on it.

Favor de no tirar. Botar means something more like to throw or toss whiletirar means to throw away.

“Please do not throw this bottle.”

“Fragile: glass may break if thrown.”

Actually, botar is OK too, according to the most useful website ever, wordreference.com. The best might be Favor de no echar en la basura or Esta botella no es basura, y si no quiere que el ICE le deporte, no lo tires en la basura, pinche mojado flojo.

And the cleaners should leave a note saying, “Comprete un Nalgene, puto Americano.”

Kr told me to use “botar.” I think she consulted with her Ecuadoran co-workers.

Don’t tell her to ask them what I said means.

I like the small mouth bottles better because I am less likely to pour water down my chin when drinking. I don’t use much ice and never leave Chicago so filtered water isn’t an issue, either.

I am now down to one bottle and no caps, though, so I need to pick up a couple more to get my three bottle rotation in place for next semester.

Sunovabitch I have to work a full day today because my coworker is sick. BOOOOOOOO. Who wants to meet me for lunch?

i would but i’m at least 5 miles from chicago city limits and about 15 from the loop so i doubt i could make it.

I finally put my Ikea bookshelf together last night.

Ok, 3van put it together and I helped.

Also a problem w/ the small-mouthed bottles: can’t get a spoon in them when you make chocolate pudding by wedging the bottle between rocks in cold running water. : D

wow, that’s like the pudding equivelant of free basing cocaine laurel.

you may have a pudding abuse problem.

You try eating freeze-dried, boiled things for three days and see what you’ll do for pudding.

I don’t understand the MacGyver pudding.

I want to see Children of Men but apparently it’s not playing here. :(

xpost

You try eating freeze-dried, boiled things for three days and see what you’ll do for pudding.

i’m not talking about what i’ve done for pudding on the internet.

Wait, what’s not to understand, Jordan?? You’re in the great out-of-doors, in need of nourishment, you have previously added powdered milk to some pudding mix and dumped it into a Ziploc. Now’s the time to add water, shake, and CHILL. And then eat.

xp:

john, get a metal bottle. it’s not plastic.

ihttp://www.justsportandleisure.com/images/Product2/800880.jpg

also: hubcap is fine! he was very tired when he got home but I think that’s totally normal.

oh, yay, Kelsey! that’s such good news.

I think I might go to Skokie to get a good bagel at this Kaufman’s place today.

hubcap does have a new “haircut” however. it makes him look so bad ass. the long scar doesn’t hurt, either (in the bad ass department. it might actually be causing li’ hubcap some pain b/c the vet gave me pain meds to give him).

you have previously added powdered milk to some pudding mix and dumped it into a Ziploc.

Ha I guess I’ve never bothered to make pudding before.

xpost, I am glad your cat is okay, Kelsey

jordan, it’s a rat.

which is kind of silly in a way & i felt slightly embarassed at work yesterday when i said i was leaving to pick up my rat from the vet. but hubcap is great. even the vet assistant said that after meeting hubcap he kinda wants a rat. hubcap is very very sweet. he’ll cuddle anyone.

i’m glad your rat is ok kelsey.

i have to go to a wake for a cat tonight. i just saw him friday night! he’d lost a lot of weight but he still looked ok. anyway, his former owner is having people over for cocktails and chex mix.

not silly at all! one of my college roommates had a pet rat that was a total sweetheart.

Well, that’s just instant pudding, which is pretty crappy compared to the home-made stuff. But you take what you can get.

for those who love pudding and aren’t out camping: it’s really easy to make from scratch, and so much better than pudding mix chemically stuff. the betty crocker version of vanilla pudding, straight from the microwave, was my comfort food for a long time. xp—yes!

yay for badass healthy kitty cat.

jordan, it’s a rat.

Oh. I take it back then.

(j/k!)

i’m actually in the process of contacting a rescue to get a new cage friend for hubcap. i feel like as a human i’m just not enough for a rat.

is it, could it be, cage friend tiem pls?

Yay Hubcap! I’m so glad, Kelsey!

Julia, how do I shot pudding from scratch?

Okay, John, get one:

They supposedly don’t have the toxic chemicals supposedly in clear plastic Nalgene bottles. Laurel, surprisingly, I’m sure, I don’t make a lot of pudding in streams so... yeah.

I still gotta vote against the narrow mouth, srsly.

Although when it rains a lot, there’s a pretty fast-moving river of water that runs down Addison, so I could probably make pudding there if the mood struck me.

I probably have a defective lip or something but about the third time I poured water down my chin during class I realized I had to do something different. Although there is always this:

You know, perusing the Nalgene website, if their #7 plastic bottles really do leach carcinogenic chemicals into the water and should be avoided by babies and pregnant women, the fact that they make a bottle especially for toddlers is more than a little evil:

Also: the link between hard plastic Nalgene bottles and cancer is pretty tenuous and much debated. It’s one of those “you’re getting more cancer from breathing in the city” type situations: “There is no doubt that polycarbonate bottles contain BPA, but there’s little evidence that it leaches out into liquids under normal conditions. Even if small doses do seep, the chemical’s effect on humans may prove harmless.”

chicago, why is damn near every site i want to go to today blocked? i have some record shopping i want to do dammit.

the government site police are on to you, dude

oh, well then in that case... hi fellas!

BACK TO WORK, COG!

Our stupid internet keeps going down.

pudding: big pyrex bowl, whisk, microwave, milk (skim is fine), corn starch, vanilla extract (always more than the recipe calls for), eggs, sugar. i think that’s it...i’ll look up a recipe for you.

awesome awesome comfort food and oh look you’re getting so much calcium!

and yay for healthy rat, i was too distracted by pudding thoughts to understand.

This is probably a stupid question, but I need to send someone an email and I don’t want to start it off with “I hope you had a lovely New Year” if it would be inappropriate, and so: Do non-Orthodox Jews celebrate Jan. 1 New Year’s or do they stick to Rosh Hashanah? Is it okay to start an email to someone whom I assume, but do not know for sure, is Jewish with the aforementioned New Year’s greeting?

Healthy pets are far preferable.

I watched the premier of “Dirt” last night on F/X, and while the show didn’t blow me away despite a hefty helping of sex, violence, and mental illness, the subplot involving a sick (and finally dead) cat proved almost too much to take. I had to give the kitties treats after that and make them promise never to die.

huh, i just realized i haven’t had a cigarette today. and probably haven’t had one in 13 hours. i wonder why i’m not nic-fitting?

Yes Jenny, NY greeting is perfectly fine.

I was just making fun of a Jew on NYE for already having had their shot, but I don’t seriously know any Jews who ignore western-calendar New Year’s.

Thanks, Jordan. I will send the email. My Jewdar tells me that this particular fellow is Reform to nonpracticing so I figured it would be okay but one can never be too careful.

Everybody come back and entertain me. Work blows and I’m all alone in my little law hole. Also I worked out my schedule over the next two weeks to conform with my coworkers and she keeps freaking changing things and messing me the hell up. Grrr.

I don’t have much to say. I wish I did.

I guess I could share with you that I’m excited about an all-new NBC Thursday lineup tomorrow.

lol lawhole

“Fuck you, lawhole!”

Is it sad to get excited about TV? It’s been so long since I’ve done it. But with Earl and The Office and 30 Rock on the same night... come on. This is good shit.

I just wish they would move Scrubs t0 7 and mash the rest of the shows together, thus giving me a clearer option if I’m in a non-Braffy mood.

Well, they call it “the library” but that makes it sound warm and inviting instead of windowless and harshly lit by fluorescents and furnished with cast off office furniture remnants. There are a lot books in here, however.

I like The Office. Sometimes I get excited about TV. I’ll be glad when BSG and Lost come back.

Sometimes I call it the “clerk hole.”

I have a weird relationship with Scrubs. I kind of hate it and yet I watch it at the gym a lot, because it is on Comedy Central ALWAYS and it’s better than a lot of other tv.

I should have Harvey Birdman dvds in my mailbox tonight.

I went out to a kosher steakhouse for lunch and I am FULL of “fillet”. Because the fillet mignon is a NON-KOSHER CUT, so they serve something else and the menu reads “fillet”. It was all right, not terribly special. Also, the non-dairy garlic mashed pot. were almost tasteless, I’m taking them home and slathering ’em in butter, thank you very much. I’ve had non-dairy ice cream at another steak place around here that’s indistinguishable from the real thing, but today’s dessert was a little...thin. Icy. No depth of flavor.

Overall, adequate but nothing I’d tell my friends about. Of course my friends aren’t obsessed with THREE THOUSAND YEAR-OLD DIETARY LAWS INTENDED TO MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT.