i agree with all that, and it’s very concisely put. thanks, Jenny! i keep trying to type a post in response to the point about not feeling “held down as a woman,” too, but it gets away from me. i am glad you don’t feel that way! sexism is real, though (i know you weren’t saying otherwise, lexy), and not necessarily reducible to a bad encounter with an individual man, although that certainly qualifies some of the time.
i like Jenny’s list of assumptions, but alternatively we could just have a separate thread for, i don’t know, sexism discussion that’s likely to alienate, or something? maybe that’s a terrible idea.
hey Jenny, I’m not going to search out individual examples nor do I have any one person’s posts in mind when I say what I said. It’s just a general feeling that I’ve had during a few of the shall we say heavier conversations on here. I completely agree that individual experiences are valid, but I have felt in the past that those experiences have been laid out in such a way that the poster insinuated this is how All Men Feel and I wanted to assure E that she was not alone in feeling that those kinds of generalizations were unfair.
‘here’ = not necessarily this thread (I do see I specifically said this thread in my original post, a careless posting-at-work mistake) but in the female centric discussions on this board.
I am not sure where anybody has ever said that every man acts in the ways that some of us have encountered some men acting.
Yeah, I don’t think that anyone has actually ever said it either but I think that the general tone of some conversations (and understandably so imo) is easily misinterpreted if that makes any sense. I was really just talking about the specific term in question there but thank you for the support Lex :)
You assumptions are good ones, J I think ones we’ve all failed to take into account at one point or another itt.
You assumptions are good ones, J I think ones we’ve all failed to take into account at one point or another itt.
Should have read: Your assumptions are good ones, J and also ones we’ve all probably failed to take into consideration at one point or another itt.
Weird just because these threads are the one place I feel I read all this stuff and it *doesn’t* devolve into the feeling of ‘this is what MEN do!!’, and I’ve always liked that. I’ve taken it as given that we’re not generalising.
I have felt in the past that those experiences have been laid out in such a way that the poster insinuated this is how All Men Feel
There is no one way that anybody of any description does or feels anything, obviously. But there are social roles and pressures that everyone is subject to at some point. Not all men do or think anything in particular; HOWEVER, all men are going to be pressured (negative/punishment) or encouraged (positive/reward) to think or act in certain ways that are gendered at different points in their lives. (Women will be too, just the aims of the pressure are different.)
People with remarkable upbringings and experiences will be at the far ends of the spectrum in feeling or not feeling pressure to conform to gendered expectations—some will have it forced on them, and some will escape it almost completely in their formative years so they’re less likely to perceive it as a giant monolithic THING later (like, you can shrug things off more easily when you’re a whole person and have real experiences to build you up). But it’s still provably THERE at some level for almost everyone.
Saying that it would be ideal if all men acknowledged the social pressures and could help fight them or be held accountable if they reinforce the shitty status quo is not the same as saying all men are at the same level of conforming to those influences.
Hi, everybody! I’m in Michigan and not really online but happened to think, “I wonder how the girls’ thread is doing this week?” about an hour ago. :)
That teacher is awesome.
/Saying that it would be ideal if all men acknowledged the social pressures and could help fight them or be held accountable if they reinforce the shitty status quo is not the same as saying all men are at the same level of conforming to those influences./
Yes!!
(clarifying, yes i agree totally w/this statement, not “yes it is”)
Heard at work this month:
“Those kids are lucky to have a mom who has a figure like that.”
What does this even mean???
Same guy just recently made comments to the assistant manager implying she was fat and thinks she took what he said the wrong way. Uh.
This is the same guy who has minimal boundaries when it comes to touching people.
What was the “right way”? Constructive criticism?
“gabbsplaining”
when/why did the ruffalo thread become anything other than a repository for fantasy shtup objects?
can’t we all just get along post stills from zodiac?
so otm
i encourage you to do that, jbr!
Sorry, that is probably my fault. :-(
Back at home now and on a proper computer again.
I just really really cannot take when straight dudes come in and start ‘splainin like that... that whole thing about “why do women fancy this dude? he is so ~unthreatening~ (i.e. womens desire for him is inauthentic)—women should fancy the kind of dudes that *I* fantasise about *being*” (because women shouldn’t fancy who they fancy, they should fancy ... *me*) and then getting so ... like defensive isn’t even the word. When horseshoe and I both pointed out that, like, this is a kinda problematic usage bcuz it is denying the authentic desires and experiences of young women, he decided to try and prove how *nonproblematic* his usage was.. by denying the experiences of the women he is talking to! (“I’m not being sexist! that word doesn’t mean what you think it does, it means what *I* say it does! Because women’s interpretations of their own experiences are wrong, and I’m right! About everything! Because I, as a man, have access to the truuuuuuuth, did I mention I’m not sexist, you uppity bitches?”) and then compounding it by being all “everyone is just agreeing with horseshoe and FT because they are WOMEn”—because, like, it’s IMPOSSIBLE for ppl to be agreeing with women because they’re actually *right*? About something they’re actually *expert* in (men that str8 women find attractive) and said due, as a straight man, is just not? NO.
And THEN. After all this... he just declares, as only straight white men *can*—that we are all in a post gender world, and why can’t we just get along and act like dudes’ interpretations are the right ones? because: I HAVE UNILATERALLY DECLARED MYSELF POST-GENDER.
Just ARGH. Why?
You can argue until you’re blue in the face about whether language is or isn’t gendered. (WRT English, that’s up for debate. english is not an inherently gendered language like, say, Spanish or Cornish—the only gender in English is that which people *put* into it. Which is a whole nother kettle of fish, see also that stupid debate about “actress” and why that word is 500 years of oppression wrapped up in one little word.) But the thing is that EXPERIENCES. ARE. GENDERED. It’s impossible not to experience things without that filter—and ONLY MEN (the default gender, after all) believe that IT EVEN IS POSSIBLE. And the ability to even hold that belief is a part of male privilege.
I’m sorry I said anything. I’m sorry I ruined the thread—actually, fuck that, I didn’t ruin the thread, I was enjoying the pictures because I was bored on a train. Who is that dude anyways? Is he just some vintage ILX troll that I’m not recognising because I’m always the last person to know who anyone under a fake name is?
Anyway I’m gonna read some cheesecake and try to pretend none of this happened.
wait i haven’t read your post yet but it was definitely ck dexter holland’s fault. okay, now i will read your post.
Did I just get totally got by some ante-dilluvian troll? Sigh. I don’t even know who he is.
you didn’t ruin the thread! you were otm. it is hard for me to take a person seriously when they claim calling a dude women find attractive “nonthreatening” is not about gender on some level. i guess that dude might be gabbneb? it’s not clear to me whether he’s said so or not.
he is so ~unthreatening~ (i.e. womens desire for him is inauthentic)
women should fancy the kind of dudes that *I* fantasise about *being*“ (because women shouldn’t fancy who they fancy, they should fancy ... *me*)
Not at all what I was saying. Don’t put words in my mouth.
I guess I feel more stupid, than anything else, for rising to the bait. Oh well.
YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE.
YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE.
No. You talk about me, I respond.
Please don’t do this here, CK Gabbnebbb whatever.
you want to respond, plz feel free to respond to FT in the orig thread. not here.
xp
Plz feel free to talk about me on the other thread, not here.
Please don’t do this here, CK Gabbnebbb whatever.
^^^^^^^
I am so sorry, girls. I had no idea that this would happen. :-(
It’s okay!
missing the real ilx girls thread and roxy’s banning of boys who post in this thread.
^^^
also it would be very lol for roxy to ban ben b. bag
Yeah I kinda didn’t realise we didn’t have that here. It started to feel like an actual ~safe space~
But on a positive note, it does make me realise how good at boundary-respectin’ most ILX dudes are, in terms of this kind of invasion being the exception, not the rule. That is me, saying something totally A-OK nice about ILX Dudes! It must be the season of goodwill or something. ;-)
I know one ILX dude who respects boundaries by not posting here even though it kills him. (Hi!!! You rock, ILX dude! xoxo)
It’s cool. :)
As hard as it is for me, sometimes, seriously, the best thing is simply not to give it the attention. It has been one of the most freeing things of the past year or maybe a bit more, learning that I don’t actually *owe* anyone my time, or my attention. I don’t *owe* anyone a response. That it doesn’t make a dude ~right~ if I just don’t respond, but it does make me feel much less of the crazy-making of beating my head against that wall. I know this is one of those lessons that you all probably learned back in grade school.
“YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE.”
Sticking to the co-ed threads because at 40 it just feels weird to see such things.
I am sorry you feel that way. But after the events of this afternoon and that particular man’s behaviour, I’m more relieved than ever that there is one place on this board where I don’t have to put up with a person like that, or behaviour like his.
not to derail, but went to gyno today (picking up on gyno convo that happened in original ilx). 1st time with a male gyno, and whoa was it ever a different experience. perhaps largely because of this particular dr’s personality, but it’s made me decide to just go with female gynocologists from now on.
I just had my first female gyno not long ago, think I need to make her my regular...nowhere near as awkward.
I’ve kinda been neglecting feminine health matters more than I should have—I had the first pap smear I’ve had in 20 years just before I left Englewood.
i had my first US gyno apptmt the other day—OMG SO TRAUMATIZING!! i wasn’t aware there was a boob exam and pelvic floor exam involved, since my previous smear tests were always done by my GP and were just that—a smear test. i know i shouldn’t be such a wimp about such things, but it’s just so awful and awkward. the one good thing was the NP who i had the apptmnt with was a large middle-aged english lady with warm hands and a soothing voice, who talked about weather the whole time and kept me distracted.
lol christine, i would go 20 years without getting one done except my husband has been nagging me to go for about a year.
smoove, same for me today! i was like, omg what is HAPPENING. it was kind of traumatizing. i retroactively appreciate the gentle female gynos I had in the past to such a greater degree.
there is no way i could see a male gyno—bravo to you for doing so!
(It’s not that I was frightened of the procedure, not at all. I haven’t had health coverage for most of those 20 years.)
Hahaha I actually think this is a brilliant idea—if dudes try to come in this thread, talk about our gyno exams until they go away.
I’m lucky in that my dr’s practice pretty much gives female practitioners for pap smears etc. by default. It makes such a difference—ESP the talking thru what they will do next instead if jabbing. Doesn’t make it any less painful but it makes it less stressful. I prob need to go back and have been avoiding it bcuz they found I have fibroids but the treatment for that is either The Pill (which I can’t take bcuz: migraines) or else inserting a coil which requires dilation which if you have fibroids involves p much crippling pain so just... it’s only 10 more years until the menopause, right?
Hmm, what else happens at a US gyno appt? I go for smear tests every time the GP’s computer summons me (and always with the female practice nurse, luckily) but I’ve never had any other kind of gynaecological checkup.
I don’t know if this is good or bad because on the one hand I uh don’t really like having strangers see my body, never mind poke around its more intimate crevices, but on the other I do from time to time convince myself that something may be wrong, in that way where you start to think you may die horribly at any moment, but still don’t go to the doctor because it “sounds a bit silly”
also, xp, best wishes FT, I went back on the pill after mystery “mittelschmerz” (good word for bad thing) and tried many different brands with many different side-effects from migraines to hair loss (ugh!) and I have definitely had the “oh god why do I have to make these choices” thoughts many times—I realise your choice sounds more horrible than mine, too
(current solution: found brand of pills where the unpleasant side-effects are milder and come on the week off and not the days on, running packs together to avoid weeks off, though my GP says I shouldn’t do that so generally I still take my week off every other pack, by which time I’ve forgotten how much I complained last time)
Extremely jokey straw feminist post: srsly if men got periods medical SCIENCE would have SOLVED this nonsense by now. ;-)
Kidding, kidding etc.
It’s the all time “dammned if you do, damned if you don’t”
(oops, shh)
Jesus WTF is wrong with ppl lately? This is not OK, knock it off.
Spacecadet I had to look up mittelschmerz—sounds awful. Commiserations.
Hmm, what else happens at a US gyno appt?
It’s been awhile since I’ve gone anywhere by Ye Olde Feminist Health Collective, but you come into the exam room, the nurse takes your blood pressure and asks to weigh you (I decline, mostly out of principle but also because it’s kind of fun to defy people who are not used to defiance). Then you take off your clothes and put on a gown and get on the exam table. Once the doc comes you, put your feet in the stirrups and the doc will, in some order, insert the speculum (if you’ve got a good one, they warm these up), take a peek at your cervix, and take the cell sample (sometimes just around the cervix, sometimes inside (I hate that part)). Then they remove the speculum and do a pelvic exam which involves putting two fingers in you and then pushing on your lower abdomen (called a bimanual exam).* Then the doc does a breast exam. If the doc is good there will be some amount of discussion before or after the exam (not during).
*Earlier this year I think there were some studies published saying this isn’t really necessary or useful so maybe this will go away.
Here it is: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jwh.2010.2349
Oh also if there is to be any STD testing, that will either happen during the speculum exam or you’ll have blood drawn before or after.
*Earlier this year I think there were some studies published saying this isn’t really necessary or useful so maybe this will go away.
I certainly hope so — this is always the worst part for me, it is very painful. I don’t know if I have a sensitive abdomen or what, but the rest of the day I hurt. And it’s not because of one particular doctor, this has happened with three different doctors.
last time i went to the GUM clinic for a checkup (i’m not going to lie, a large part of the reason for going was that i’d recently been reading a bunch of US feminist blog posts about gyno appts and thought ‘hm, i have never done this’, and discovered that was cos we don’t really do regular gyno checkups on the NHS unless there’s a specific problem/question) i managed to convince the doctor to do the smear test at the same time. which was good as now i don’t have to put my feet in stirrups again for, ooh, a good couple of years.
Do you get regular Pap smears under the NHS?
I certainly do! I get regular reminder letters from my GP! (But I think I may be substantially older than Cis. They only kicked in at A Certain Age. though I can’t remember what that age was, LOL senility.)
Yeah, you do from 20 onwards iirc. I avoided mine for a few years after the first letter but started getting more and more stern letters about it and finally went in my mid-20s.
I think they get more frequent when you are “a certain age”, though; in 20s and early 30s it is every 3 years (or is it 2?) unless you have a suspicious/inconclusive reading, in which case it’s yearly or 6 monthly instead.
No breast checks until post-menopause, though. Would sort of appreciate an exam because when I do a self-check I always feel like I have no idea what I’m looking for.
ACOG came out with guidelines recently saying every two years when you’re under 30, and every three years if you’re over 30 and haven’t had any abnormal paps—http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pap-smear/MY00090/DSECTION=why-its-done
(Are you getting the toilet paper Imodium ad on that page? That is horrible and LOL.)
I always assume that w/ breast self-checks I’ll know it if I feel it? Otherwise, I would probably be freaking out about everything all the time, since not only do I not really know what I’m looking for, they also always give the disclaimer about normal changes due to hormonal fluctuations, etc.
aforementioned gyno convo that happened in original ilx inspired me to get my first gyno checkup in eons. thanks, girls thread!
jenny set me up with Ye Olde Feminist Health Collective and it was rly nice to get some answers to some little nagging questions i’d had for yrs.
I’ll know it if I feel it
i assume the same—i’ve found a lump which was difft than my usual lumpy breast tissue. it’s small but definitely a lump. (i forgot to mention it to my doc but then gyno found it—benign cyst, no big deal)
So I got my Bass Rachel Antonoff heeled saddle shoes for X-Mas—THEY ARE AMAZING. SO comfy and adorbs!!
pics or gtfo
I have to buy shoes now and this gives me TEH PH34R. How the hell do you make shoe shopping enjoyable or even bearable?
And I’ve already had to *go* shoe shopping once already this month bcuz Cornwall destroyed my hiking boots so I bought wellies in Penzance but wellies work in places where everything is made of mud or sand, but do not work on the hard concrete of London ;_;
No more shitty cheap vegan shoes made of hemp and cardboard that fall apart after 3 months of use, I need to get shoes that are made of IRON and BOOTSTRAPS and will last for at least a year so I don’t have to do this again. HALP ME GIRLS. #ShoeCrisis
I’m dreadful with shoes. I buy a pair of Docs, a pair of Kumfs maryjanes (orthopedic sandals basically, my feet are effed), a pair of sneakers and a pair of knee high boots for winter and thats it.
All flat—cant wear/walk in any kind of heel. Makes being girly in shoes... impossible basically :/
I don’t know if my feet are just really wide, but I p much just can’t wear girly shoes. Like, literally, I just cannot get my feet into them.
I’d buy shoes mail order to dispense with all the hassle, but the last time I did that, the shoes were just not wide enough (even after stretching) and I could hardly send them back after being stretched.
Maybe I should just give up and get a pair of Docs. They’re supposed to be p much indestructible—are they? I need a pair of boots that will stand up to a year or so of hard London walking. A friend told me to get these Spanish goth boots—called New Rock or something like that? But again, that mail order problem.
I should get off the internet and go up to Camden but just... ugh.
Docs are pretty rad. An indispensable part of my youth—I think my massive steel toe-capped ones lasted me for three years or so as a teen, and probably only not longer as I started wearing trainers instead.
I feel the shoe woes. I think I’ve complained about my stupid feet plenty so I won’t go into it again but I’m basically like Trayce. All I want is a brogan, a work shoe (plus a pair of interview shoes), sneakers, and snow boots and I’ll call it a day.
Actually, lately all I want is for it to be climatically and socially acceptable for me to wear Crocs (the big, ugly kind) every day since for the past few months, those have been the only shoes that are actually comfortable.
I did make a feeble stab at buying rain boots yesterday but I got overwhelmed and frustrated and gave up.
And of course it’s raining today and, probably for the same reason only Crocs are comfortable now (I’m guessing some mystery toe joint ailment, probably exacerbated by the cold, rainy weather and the fact that my orthotics are wearing out), my beloved rainy weather shoes* feel just miserable to wear so I’m really wishing I had bought the pair of rain boots I was thinking about buying but didn’t because they were really stupid looking.
Which isn’t to say they wouldn’t hurt my feet eventually, but they would at least hurt slightly differently.
*Well-waterproof Fluevogs, like so:
This is very silly but I want to post a picture of shoes and can’t work out how to do it using Dropbox. When I copy the link to my pic from the Dropbox site, it doesn’t end in .jpeg. (I have posted in WDYLL but can’t remember how I did it).
Jenny, I really sympathize. It’s not like feet are something you can avoid bashing around. I feel lucky not to have this problem. Instead I am just crap about what shoes look good with what.
Thanks for the sympathy.
I’m going to complain a little bit more and then drop it, I promise: I got ready early today because I am leaving work early, basically as soon as I finish a few things, so my plan was to get in early, get done, and GTFO BUT since I have to wear the Pain Shoes, I’m really reluctant to walk to the train (about a half mile) so I’m waiting for a bus, but the bus isn’t coming for like 15 minutes, all of which pretty much negates my whole “getting to work early plan.”
I simply cannot cope with my feet hurting. Any shoe that hurts my feet if I wear it more than twice goes straight to the charity shop to hurt someone else’s feet. I walk far too much to ever put up with uncomfortable shoes.
This is why, once I find a pair of comfortable shoes, I tend to wear them until they literally fall apart. My hiking boots, it turned out, were only held together with mud, and split when the sea got at them. ;_;
I am also having the same massive desire to cut off ALL OF MY HAIR that I was experiencing last year on Girl Thread on Proper ILX.
Except this year, I don’t want a bob or an Eton Crop, I want a French Resistance hairstyle like at the bottom of this page
http://www.joeri.net/retro/fashion/gentstop.htm
I’m a massive hippie and I want to keep my hair long and flowing for ever and ever but I’m starting to recede at my temples (!!!!!!!—I know, but it happened to my mum, too) and I am trying to face facts that I should really do something about it, but really, who wants to have to get a proper hairstyle trimmed every three months or whatever when I can just throw it in a ponytail and forget it exists?
Also I would probably look like a potato.
Something like this should be do-able but leave you enough hair to have something going on when you don’t pomade it back?
But other than the haircut, you can start by wearing that hat like 3“ lower over your forehead! Yes, it sucks for visibility. I don’t know why people put up with it for so long. But almost no hat looks good when it’s barely perched on yr crown and about to fall off.
Yeah, that was exactly the photo I was liking, because his hair is quite wavy and mine is quite wavy so it would probably work. And I originally had the hat pulled much lower on my brow (which is how I wear it when I’m trying to keep out the coldy freezes and rain, because really it’s about head protection and it totally works) but it looked kinda dumb like that in photos, also I was mainly wearing it to try and keep my voluminous quantity of hair from flopping out and ruining the effect.
have you considered just getting men’s shoes?
I usually do. But shopping for them is still a pain in the arse.
is it that what you want doesn’t exist or that what you like doesn’t fit?
i don’t like shoe-shopping either
I love it. I go to Nordstrom Rack sometimes just to try on shoes... with no intention to buy.
What I want exists, it’s just that I hate having to go into town because London sucks and I’m annoyed before I even get to the shop because, tourists, and then be given the side-eye by shop assistants because I’m shopping in the wrong section, and then try on at least 3 or 4 pairs because translating sizing between men’s and women’s shoes is unreliable and it might be a 6 1/2 or a 7 or an 8, and get given the side-eye again for wasting their time and I feel like a cow if they don’t fit my calves because mens calves are skinnier, then looking in all those mirrors I start to feel fat and unattractive and hate myself which is not something that I really like to feel and just ... ugh. I will wrap plastic bags around my feet and carry on wearing the shoes with holes in them.
i guess the one positive thing about shoes—for me—is that i am at peace with my feet: they are wide and flat and look like flesh-covered rectangular robot feet, but finding shoes is mainly a functional issue as opposed to an aesthetic/self-esteem one. Sometimes i feel that way about clothes, makeup, the other adornments — but not as consistently as i do about feet/shoes.
I was looking round the sale section of a shoe website earlier, and had specified some other search term which took away the choice of men’s vs women’s, and everything I liked enough to click on turned out to be a man’s shoe, and therefore only start at size 6, whereas I’m a size 5. Hmf.
(and because of my wide feet I am actually a size 3 lengthways but a 5 width-wise or something, so going up another size = bad fit. and also the skinny man-calves thing, my fat ankles often don’t even fit into women’s boots. and argh etc.)
i have similar boot issues — i look for boots that lace up.
I have exactly one pair of boots that I can actually lace up over my fat calves. It’s so frustrating. But at least I have big feet, it must be so annoying that they’re all just one size too big.
Which is why I’m so annoyed that my original pair of motorcycle boots died—they were German manboots for fat old man bikers which actually fit my calves! And then the heel on one of them got all squishy and weird after breaking on some sharp Cornish rocks. I have tried cutting the other heel in the same way to get it to collapse down so at least they’re at the same height, but no dice.
German biker boots sound awesome. Actually I’m reminded that the army surplus shop has sturdy-looking boots in a wide range of sizes. I think I even tried some on before and found that they fitted. Must go back.