Oh, I don’t mind if it is and if other people want it to be that’s fine with me. I just didn’t want people to feel the need to apologize for posting in here since it really didn’t state anywhere (until now) that they couldn’t.

First of all, there’s no reason for it NOT to be about that except that there are fewer pictures on the internet of “normal” people in their underwear and god forbid we run short of pictures of tits.

I never said there wasn’t and I would welcome such a thing but precisely because of the reasons you stated it never will be. That’s all I meant.

relatedly: https://twitter.com/#!/helenlewis/status/147682384047906817

straight women who are average looking expect to date men who are average looking, but men who are average looking expect to date, I dunno, Zooey D. And you can’t even *talk* to them about the expectations these images create without them getting all offended about it.

^^ otm

Espesh when perfectly nice, normal dudes defend themselves by saying, like, “But my girlfriend/wife is beautiful, and she’s a normal person! Really, I’m attracted to lovely normal women all the time”, while being (purposefully?) oblivious to the fact that their public worship of faked beauty is part of a culture that makes their real-life loved ones feel terrible about/critical of themselves.

FWIW I also don’t think it’s *good* to export all these bodily concerns to men, as well. Like, I do not think that’s the answer.

Firstly because hey, as a massive FAN of dudes with bodies like Thom Yorke (I have waxed lyrical about scrawny pale English dudes with bellies a million times before) that would be a thing of sadness to me.

But also, like, I went upstairs and there was a massive photo ad of RIPPED CHEST DUDE staring me in the face as I tried to fix someone’s computer and I just think that’s got to be so harmful for men, and also it’s so clearly “give us all your money and you too can be surgically enhanced to look like this!” which is just gross late capitalism bleh

it’s all just so depressio and I don’t wanna be depressio

That tweet/letter is great.

Pyth, this is a thousand times OTM. Like, they just literally can NOT see the connection between “public adulation of unattainable photoshopped perfection” and “this is why my perfectly lovely normal looking wife/gf feels like shit about herself”

Anyway. Sigh. I have to go and do some more reports to market this shit to more ppl to exploit them by making them feel crap about themselves and it makes me want to vomit when I just want to be counting down the hours til I’m back in Cornwall and feeling like a human being again.

Haha @ the Roald Amundsen part of it!

I’m surprised you still work there, FT, given how you’ve felt about it since the beginning and how much it must be bringing you down. Things are hard enough without that shit on your back? I guess lack of income is a whole different shit, though.

Like, they just literally can NOT see the connection between “public adulation of unattainable photoshopped perfection” and “this is why my perfectly lovely normal looking wife/gf feels like shit about herself”

There is no doubt that this is an issue and it’s depressing and awful. It’s why I tried posting more “normal” looking people in WS after a while and part of the reason why I posted there less and less. I’m not saying that there aren’t problems with the very idea of the WS thread because there obviously are. I just feel like most of the people posting there do actually understand that connection and I think that the range of people posted itt is actually wider than has been suggested here. I sort of wish that reg ILX was up so I could look at the real thread and verify that but the sort of Stuff for Men, Maxim type shit that I find most offensive isn’t actually what gets posted most often.

I cannot conscience knowingly making myself unemployed in this economic climate—there are literally *no* jobs out there, I keep looking and seeing only short term contracts because the NHS just isn’t hiring and no one else wants medical data analysts—and they simply will not sack me, I don’t know how I’ve survived this many rounds of redundancies because no one else in this industry can speak in maths apparently—I dunno. It makes me crazy.

But it’s also brought a whole new level of understanding of the discourse around Beauty Myth type shit to which I used just shrug and say “who cares what stupid women do to their breasts” like now I know the mechanism and the pressure—but I also feel more confident about telling stupid strawfeminists to STFU “the problem is *not* porn or these vague notions of ‘sexualisation’—the problem is commercialisation and hard core late capitalism on a level you couldn’t even get your heads around, but here are the effing stats!” grrrrr

This report is not writing itself. I need to look at Thom Yorke’s belly until I get my happy place back.

Can I just say that I am always really very reluctant to post in this thread when we get on these topics because I feel like you’re all r your de at me thinking about how sad it is that the poor dumb pretty girl has been brainwashed or that I don’t have a right to take part in these discussions because I may or may not have had similar experiences to you? There, I said it. Of course I have been brainwashed—we all have to some extent and I’m more conscious of that lately than I have been ever before. Still, every post I make about this stuff I sort of picture a handful of you all sitting there clucking at my naivete and stupidity. I realize that probably is more a reflection of my self-doubt than anything else and very well might not be what’s happening at all but wanted to put that out there and assure you that it’s not the case and that I do think about these things. A lot. I mean, my participation in WS was pretty intentional from the beginning in a sort of “I’m here too boys” sort of way. I found it easier to participate in some way than allow myself to be excluded. Sorry, I’m babbling now.

Well, that reminds me of when I first joined ILX, the Music board I was OK with but all the politics and culture and so much else, it all seemed like if I was to say owt, I’d get tutted at and so on.

Of course, we all no nowt and continue to do so really.

E, there’s no way that this is not gonna come out the wrong way, so I’m just gonna say it and hope you aren’t too hurt by it.

I spent a *lot* of my life being “one of the boys”—because I kinda had to, having worked in so many male dominated fields. I could either participate, and join in, and prove myself “more of a lad than the lads” in the recording studio, or in the computer lab—or I could kick up a stink and vent my feminist feelings, and not get to be in the club at all. For a long time, that worked, and I don’t actually know what the *moment* was, that it stopped working. But it did. Somehow the “one of the boys” forcefield stopped working, and I had to deal with all of this stupid crap that I thought only women who weren’t, you know, “putting themselves forward enough” did.

That said, I don’t think I was ever unaware that there were women who didn’t, or couldn’t, make those choices. I will confess that I often get very very irritated and frustrated with you—not because I’m “clucking at your naivete and stupidity”—but because sometimes it *feels* (operative word—this is how it feels to *me*, not what I’m accusing you of doing in terms of intent) like... because you have not directly experienced these issues, you start to actively deny the reality of the experiences *I* (we?) have, and the conclusions that *I* (we?) draw.

That is my number one trigger point of what will turn me from a fairly reasonable person into a raging angry beast. Different people have different experiences. Those experiences will lead them to different conclusions, different interpretations. (And also, the expectations based on those conclusions may themselves shape future events.)

It’s one thing to say “I’ve never experienced that”—that is completely fair. But it sometimes *feels* like you step from “I have never experienced that, and it is literally impossible for me to conceive of anyone feeling that way”—which leads to the implied/infered coda of “...therefore anyone feeling that way is lying, crazy or stupid.” Which is denying that other people have their own equally valid reality and that makes me super crazy angry in a way I can’t control.

I really hesitate to post this, because I read it, and I’m sure it comes off as a personal attack. But I feel like I’m never going to move on or be able to deal until I explain to you—I am not angry at you about X, that you’ve just said. I am angry about Y, which is something kinda beyond X.

I’m not saying that you being on the WS thread is “being one of the boys.” I don’t have a problem with any woman who walks into that envrionment and tries to humanise it or gender equalise it, or just be *present* as a reminder that women are human beings with brains and eyes and libidos, too. I’m fine with all that.

But there’s this complicated thing where it feels like you start to impose your reality onto me. And you start to judge my reactions by your experiences, and have no conception of why I (with my different set of experiences and conclusions) might feel and think a different way. And I am really not OK with that.

Anyway, that’s really heavy for a Friday afternoon. And I feel a bit like I’m a mean kid who has just squished a butterfly. But this is stuff that’s been building up for a couple of years now, and I either have to say this, now, without fearing that every other person on this thread has their finger hovering over the SB button for being ~mean~ to you, and run the risk of upsetting you, or just carry on with this bad blood between us, which is no fun for either of us.

Sorry, many phone calls and shocking work-related announcements today, got delayed in response.

E, I know that’s why you’ve embedded yrself in that thread from the beginning and if you can really stomach that, you have a more resilient approach to the subject than I do. (And possibly you also believe more charitable things about the participants, whereas half the reason I avoid the thread is because it makes me feel really bad about some dude posters that I’m otherwise fond of.)

What you say about inevitable brain-washing is true, and sad, and the other half of the reason I stay off ws is that I want to block that message out of my life as much as possible, because we are all varying levels of susceptible to it. I know you’ve let us in on a little bit about your own body-image difficulties and that you’re working on finding a balanced view. Wish you all luck with this and am v interested in your thoughts as you work toward something more beneficial.

x-post—

Not upset at all—don’t feel attacked. Promise.

To be honest, what you said is something I feared you (and other people) felt wrt to this part:

But it sometimes *feels* like you step from “I have never experienced that, and it is literally impossible for me to conceive of anyone feeling that way”—which leads to the implied/infered coda of “...therefore anyone feeling that way is lying, crazy or stupid.”

I have tried to acknowledge that and make a point of not denying other people’s experiences/feelings and I apologize if I’ve not been successful in doing so and if that has seemed to be the case.

I have more to say but a) I’d like to think about it more and b) for some reason I agreed to take part in some lunchtime yoga bullshit that I really don’t feel like doing but don’t think I can get out of.

OK it’s taken me 6 months to actually say this, so I don’t expect a reply immediately—I just wanted to say I’m glad you don’t feel upset or attacked. Genuinely. Bcuz it’s rlly hard for me to say this stuff.

I peeked into the WS thread on ILX once or twice and I just can’t get into posting pictures of ppl and judging their bodies and their fuckability (even if it’s all positive, it is judging). And given that measuring the worth of women (I presume it’s mostly women in the thread, TY notwithstanding) on their fuckability first and p much everything else second is a basic tenant of sexism, I don’t want to participate in it.

Also what Laurel said about needing to maintain a certain fiction about some ILX dudes that I generally like.

I also hate “smash” as a sex euphemism.

And also I would like this to be a “girls only” thread. Sorry Evan.

I also hate “would smash” as a metaphor but, like, I just wanted a place to post pictures of Thom Yorke’s amazing belly without being shouted at as being off topic or ~CREPEY WEIRDO~—well, that turned out well! :D

hullo fotherington hullo thomas,

There are a few data manager/data analyst jobs for clinical research projects up at jobs.ac.uk. Not saying you should go for them as I have not much idea what they want, what you currently do, etc, and I suspect they probably pay a lot less than the big bad corporate self-image-hounds. But if you are looking for an out, it may be worth a look.

WS thread scares me too. Even the “girls/gays WS too” thread on big-ILX makes me feel a bit like a visiting alien.

I don’t wanna do this yoga thing. I’m trying to hide and pretend I’m not here.

Oh, it’s not until 1.

Moving whatever discussion about the term “mansplain” to here:

I am 100% guilty of being an over-explainer for a bunch of reasons!!! Big sister, production manager, nuts & bolts, etc. I know I do this. But there’s a already a gender imbalance present in all of our perceptions about who gets to “know” things and who is supposed to “learn” things from others, and I am positing that the imbalance makes it not the same when a woman overexplains (although equally annoying to the listener, I’m sure).

Hm maybe not “equally” but “also”.

Sorry, I answered this on the wrong thread, Pyth.

The problem is, the “man” in “mansplain” doesn’t ~have~ to refer to the male gender, but the inherent assumption of automatic greater knowledge due to unspoken privilege. If you can get all that in a snappy 2-syllable phrase, we’re laughing.

^^ Yes. I wish there was something snappy to encompass that.

I meant my post here as a response to ENBB’s saying that she’s offended by the term, and I assume she doesn’t mean because it’s an ugly portmanteau, because “offended” is a strong, possibly inexact, word to use in that case.

There really needs to be a word that encapsulates the whole damn thing, because it’s not as if there isn’t White-splaining or Ameri-splaining or Hetero-splaining or any of those other things, we just don’t have snappy words for them, really.

x-post—It just seems to me to imply that it’s something that all and only men do which I don’t think is actually the case. That’s why I was saying that I’d prefer a term like FT was suggesting. One that encapsulates the phenomenon as FT stated above and doesn’t seem so damning and exclusive.

the “man” in “mansplain” doesn’t ~have~ to refer to the male gender, but the inherent assumption of automatic greater knowledge due to unspoken privilege.

Privilege that men have and women do not, in the hypothetical situation AND the specific conversation in which I used the term. To say that “men do it” does not imply that other kinds of people, in other situations, are not also benefiting from some other kind of privilege.

I don’t like it because it’s an ugly portmanteau but a word for the phenomena described aptly by FT needs to exist. I tend to use “mansplain” and then “mansplain” the shit out of why I’m using that word even though I hate it.

It’s totally ugly and horrible like basic all media-created portmanteaus!! I first noticed it in what I think was the Tiger Beatdown essay about how fans of A Game of Thrones were so butthurt when the TBd writer critiqued the show from a feminist perspective, and how male fans kept trying to mansplain FEMINISM TO HER in the context of the awful, awful female characters in that entire show/series!!

I have to admit, that usage kind of validated it for me.

So, I’m the only one that seems to find it problematic because it makes it sound like something every man does? Really? I’m genuinely curious. I know a lot of guys that I’ve never heard/seen do this and think I’d pretty WTF at the existence of the word if I were one of them tbh. I know it doesn’t actually mean that every single man ever does this but it just sort of makes it sound like it does in a way that I’m not comfortable with. Also, it’s a horrible portmanteau, yes.

I don’t think it’s a media-based portmanteau? I think it came out of the blogosphere. Actually I would love to know who originated it because its slow seepage has been really illuminating—I can remember the reaction the first time I used it on ILX, and it’s weird to me that it still gets that kind of reaction in places where people encounter it for the first time, like, a year or so later?

But no, you’re not the only person who finds it problematic—but the problem is, there doesn’t seem to be a word that has quite its power to accurating describe the phenomenon.

But also, this is like Feminism 101—when you describe a problematic behaviour that men sometimes do (e.g. mansplaining)—you are NOT automatically associating it with EVERY MAN EVER. It’s just saying that it’s a thing that ~mostly men~ do, because: privilege. But it’s so tiring to have to explain this, and not create a “do you not do this? then here are your feminist cookies, now try and convince other men to behave the same way rather than protesting your innocence, pls” badge afresh each time.

I know. I thought I said that I realized that? It just SOUNDS like it does in a way that makes me uncomfortable using it even though I know that.

Thank you, I couldn’t quite find the calm place to think of that explanation from. Also, aren’t blogs media? Maybe not in the big/commercial sense.

FT—I don’t know if there’s anything else I can say other than what I already have. I’m sorry that it’s felt that way and will try to better clarify that I don’t mean to delegitimize other people’s experiences. In some ways though I’ve felt the similarly insofar as what I was saying earlier where is often seems like people have responded to things I’ve said in such a way as to suggest that I haven’t experienced certain things/feelings because I just don’t know or am not enlightened enough to realize certain things when I feel pretty firmly that, while surely true sometimes, is not always the case.

Also, I need to say this because I was really upset at the time but you were really horrible to me and all of the other women in this thread not that long ago. I know it was in reaction to the situation you’re describing above but I don’t really think that makes it OK. I was hurt and extremely upset when you completely dismissed my academic/work experience in a post that can only be described as a personal attack. I needed to mention this because it seems strange to me to be having these discussions without at least acknowledging that whole thing happened. I mean, you also took it outside ILX which just wasn’t on. I also realize that I responded in a pretty cruel and perhaps harsher way than was necessary but I was really upset (and understandably so imo) at the time.

WRT WS I understand that it makes some people uncomfortable and they don’t want to participate and that’s fine. Personally I’m OK with the judging part of it though, especially when it’s positive. It’s pretty undeniable that (while women certainly feel the brunt of this a lot more than men and also in completely different ways) we all make judgments about people’s physical attractiveness all the time whether it’s on a conscious level or not. Appearance is the first thing you notice about someone and a judgment is instantly formed somewhere. Denying that would seem a little strange to me. I don’t really have a problem with someone saying “This is someone I find attractive.” and find it pretty interesting a lot of the time.

When you say “prostrate cancer is a male disease”—are you saying that ~every~ man has prostrate cancer? Or just that it’s a disease that mostly men get, because it’s 99.9% (cis) men that get it?

That’s kinda how I think about terms like “mansplaining”—while still recognising that the point you make is valid, oc. But I don’t know how to get that across.

x-post because I need to read that properly and digest it.

xp I wd just like to say, though, that in certain ways that blow-up precipitated the revival of the Girls Only thread as a way more serious conversation about gender and less of a nail polish comparison manual (an awesome thing which has its OWN thread on normal ilx) and I think the GOT has become many times more active and supportive and brought something back to the conversation(s) on ilx that had kind of disappeared without anyone saying anything.

And I need that, because I can only fight the battles that I perceive to be present, and I need other people to provide meaty discussion topics that I’ll never think of, and drop facts I don’t know, and remind me to be kind and work for something better for everyone and not go down my personal rabbit-hole of anger.

Yeah, what FT said. There’s also a parallel between that sort of objection to “mansplain” and the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” phenomenon (it’s too hard to post links on Zing, but search for sh@pley pr0se and schrodinger’s rapist and you’ll find the post.

While recognizing the many problems inherent to the term (including the one E articulates) I am unmoved by men’s objections to the term because said objections change the conversation from “here is a thing that men often do to women that is a symptom of and also perpetuates sexism” to “your experiences are invalid because this word is imperfect and makes me feel bad.”

I’d rather be able to have the discussion than spend that energy spraring men’s feelings.

idk, i started out in the ‘mansplaining is the correct term for this thing, it is an ugly but unavoidable term’ camp but hmmm

i feel like “mansplaining” could be unfolded to “explaining, the way men do it” (which does not necessarily mean all men but certainly suggests a ‘typical’ man)

but you can’t really say “getting prostate cancer, the way men do it” unless you are doing stand-up of some kind

(i have been thinking about the man-prefix quite a lot recently, after deciding to retire ‘manwhore’ from my vocabulary)

(because while it is a funny thing to say about dudes it implies a whole world of seriously unfunny things about women)

Sorry, I’m not ignoring what you’re saying, E, I just need to think about it.

...

but seriously, on another topic, there comes a point where I just have to disengage when someone keeps repeating something ~as truth~ that has like 30 to 40 years of academic debunking of, and I just can’t keep having that conversation without going crazy. I can’t. I know this seems like I’m bowing out of the argument and letting them win, but it’s like... there’s 40 years of research on it. Go look it up! I know I brought up this subject, but, like—I have to remember. I am not ILX’s personal Womens Studies Professor. If someone has a brain, go look it up. It becomes derailing for dummies—and I feel like, if I don’t have the stamina to have these arguments I shouldn’t bring it up, but really. I try but... I can’t.

That’s fine!

No, Foth, I think putting the info out there is all you can do. I ran into this blank wall w a male acquaintance the oth weekend and posted about it as well—people that should be allies still have some seriously fucked up and purposefully ignorant habits of thought and comment.

It is 6pm the day before I go on holiday and I am still staring at a report I haven’t finished because I’ve been having these arguments, yet again, and I hate this feeling that yet again, I’ve got that “if you actually cared about this, you would explain 30 years of study to me instead of quoting authorities” which makes me feel like I’ve lost but really : I HAVE A LIFE I WOULD LIKE TO BE LIVING.

FT—get your stuff done and go home. Don’t feel the need to respond to that post of mine now btw. I just wanted to put that out there but I understand needing to think about it. I thought it just deserved and needed to be mentioned and not in a malicious way either. I would have felt too fake not at least acknowledging it in some way.

seriously, do not let this get in the way of your awesome holiday! you having a gloriously beautiful break is way more important to the world than pandering to someone’s argument-delaying tactic.

er xpost, i meant the explain 30 years of study stuff to me, we’re all clear on that, right

This is so exhausting. Need to close the window before this happens:

http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444

Talk Show Host just came on Spodify so I’ll be waiting with a gun and a pack of sandwiches, I’m READY.

(Yeah, I was talking about the “explain 30 years of feminist lingustics to me at 6pm on your last day” topic, not the unresolved stuff with E—just making that clear too!)

I prefer to use “condescension” as a catch-all for people explaining things to me that I already know, or acting like I’m stupid, or don’t know what a churro is, or whatever. I am also the sort of person who will hold back like 498 of the 500 things I actually know because I like to have an arsenal of secret weapons at my disposal.

Anyway, my $0.02 is this: the ws thread has never really seemed as malevolent to my eyes as “women’s magazines” in general — ws says “this is attractive” whereas SELF/Cosmo suggests “this not-real picture of a humanoid is attractive and here are some lies to achieve that look, which btw you will never EVER achieve”

objectification vs focused self-esteem squashing, basically

LOLing a little at the idea of someone explaining a churro to you. Has that happened?

a mere two days ago!

There’s a scene in Sheriff where the sheriff goes hunting with his daughter, and he sees some turkey shit in the path, and he says, “Jessica. You see that? That’s turkey droppins. A turkey left that.” The camera later pans to Jessica, and you know she is still pissed about the turkey droppins incident. She doesn’t say a word, but you can tell. I love that part!

I mean lots of times I really don’t know shit — and at those times I like to have people explain things to me. But I know turkey droppins. Most of us do.

I sure as hell don’t! Turkey droppings? Never seen ’em!

It looks like goose shit.

Oh I know what that looks like. DAMN YOU CANADIAN GEESE!

“A turkey left that” is what gets me.

Yeah. That’s amazing.

“A turkey left that...for YOU.”

when a male turkey loves a female turkey ...

A turkey left that precious gift...for you.

...(whispers) turkey droppins

but on the serious side — i’ve spent a lot of my life being “one of the guys” — and half the time I didn’t really think about my gender at all. In moments of insecurity (that are too frequent tbh), I feel/felt that that status wasn’t a privilege, but consolation for being fat and ugly.

When something is designed to exclude you, there’s no end of ways it can make you feel bad abt yourself, sometimes with a lot of your own help.

AND BY “YOU” AND “YOUR”, I MEAN “ME” AND “MY.”

I feel/felt that that status wasn’t a privilege, but consolation

i decided at quite a young age that since i was never going to be pretty i would have to be ‘one of the guys’ in order to be accepted

and, you know, it worked all right.

I was going to say “haha me too”, but I was one of the boys before it ever occurred to me that pretty was a thing that might be expected of me and was unattainable.

I was one of the boys throughout primary school to such an extent that puberty was a big shock to me—I think I’d been assuming that somehow I would grow up to be Man, or at least Not Woman*, and there I was, suddenly facing this whole being a woman thing, and realising that I wasn’t very good at it

(* like all the protagonists in all my favourite books were boys without it ever needing to be pointed out, and any girls were spelt out at great length as Girls and were all a bit rubbish too.

I had one treasured exception, a book where the protagonist is cool and funny and hard as nails, ringleader of a gang of boys, and you don’t even find out until the last chapter that it’s a girl, when a teacher is talking about her in the third person—I’d name the book, but I’ve just spoilt it! but I still think of that book often, 24 years after first reading it. Thank you, Gene Kemp. And ironically it took me 20 of those years to realise that Gene Kemp was a woman too...)

xp Ime it works out okay as long as the guys you’re placing yrself among are polite and fair-minded and sensible/educated about gender (or just too well brought up to say anything offensive in the first place). But when dudes you trusted start being batshit about feminism or “pussy power” or language or w/e, you have to be the police all of a sudden and it can totally suck for you.

I was one of the boys throughout primary school to such an extent that puberty was a big shock to me—I think I’d been assuming that somehow I would grow up to be Man, or at least Not Woman*, and there I was, suddenly facing this whole being a woman thing, and realising that I wasn’t very good at it

omg yes! like getting boobs and having to wear a bra was kinda traumatic — and i’ve probably posted about when i first got my period — but i was crying and asked my mom, “You mean, I have to go through this every month, for how long?”

spudette, there is a charming book called Keeper of the Bees that is probably really racist in a 1930s way and sexist too but actually not for its time? And there’s a rabble-rousing character in it of about age 9 or so who wins all the fights and shoots all the pretend Indians and tends the bee hives and catches the bugs and makes the campfires and is called “the Scout” and doesn’t turn out to be a girl until the very end.

omg yes! like getting boobs and having to wear a bra was kinda traumatic — and i’ve probably posted about when i first got my period — but i was crying and asked my mom, “You mean, I have to go through this every month, for how long?”

― sarahel, Friday, December 16, 2011 2:39 PM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink

Were you really young?! I was 16 so by that point I was downright thrilled because at least it didn’t mean I had secret testicles like the girl I saw on some true life medical story show.

xp At which point of course a big deal is made of the fact that her male cohort is going to outgrow and out-strengthen her and she has to stop taxing herself trying to stay ahead of them. Sigh Gene Stratton-Porter, sigh.

xp—i was 9! it was the day before my 10th birthday and I was omg having a slumber party!

there’s a line in some Xiu Xiu song from years back, where Jamie says/sings “This is the worst birthday ever!” and it always reminds me of that incident.

OMG nine! Yeah, that would have been really scary even though I think by that point I knew about all that stuff in at least a very basic sense.

I was not a tomboy and didn’t have any boy friends through about 8th grade. In fact I was ridiculed mercilessly to the point of having to change schools and said bullying was done mostly by boys. It was awful. Went to an all-girls HS so no male friends then. Went to college and getting a lot of male attention for the fist time in my life was completely overwhelming. I think maybe that’s when I sort of started being one of the guys mostly to deflect that attention and make it more bearable somehow. Like, “I’m not gonna fuck you but we can totally hang out!” only that didn’t always work and I wound up in some pretty awful situations along the way and made some really bad decisions. I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I talked a bit about this the other day too—the mostly having more male friends thing. As an adult I have found that for the most part it’s worked out and specifically for the reasons Larrel stated in terms of the guys I consider my friends.

I’m on a bus on a diversion through Clapham(?) so I just wanted to add to Cis & Sarahel—I know that feeling. Like, I did that, too and I wish I knew when it changed and it stopped being OK?

Was it when I went from being a session bassist (the old joke of “what you call a girl who hangs out with musicians”) to being in mine own band and discovering I no longer played music but “women’s music”? Maybe it was developing disordered eating (drunkorexia?) and found myself suddenly at the age of 31 actually conforming to the stereotype of “hot girl” for the first time in my life? Maybe it was the constant wearing down on the Internet (not just stuff on ILX but a host of other sites after I got sick of being misgendered bcuz of my interests? Maybe it was ageing and seeing exactly how I transformed from “one of the guys” to ugly old hag as I watched my prospects narrow while dudes’ stayed the same or widened? Maybe it was just reading on the endless Internet that my experiences were not just isolated incidents easily explained but part of a wider system that was too regular to be coincidence and I was sick of making bargains about it?

It’s complicated. It’s complicated for all of us but I think the only way to deal with it is to talk about it to one another instead of pretending it doesn’t matter if—if, because everyone’s mileage varies—it bothers us?

xposts to Keeper of Bees: Awesome. I would very much have loved that book as a kid! Too bad about the ending, but I might still track it down. I’ve been harbouring some thoughts of going on a massive kids’/YA fiction kick, not least because I never seem to make it to the end of adult books these days.

fewer xposts: Urgh, 9! That sounds horrible. Mine was the summer between primary school and secondary school, adding to the sense of a whole new terrible chapter in a way, though not completely accurately.

Was this the thread with the girls-kissing-for-practice thing on? I’d been in a group of three best friends aged 8–10, but age 11 the other 2 were pairing up for “exploring” (as they called it) while I was the gooseberry. Went to a different secondary school and never saw them again, but that feeling of being left out hung around.

(sorry I’m on iPhone so I couldn’t edit that and it didn’t show x-posts from Cis on)

Also I don’t think that being “one of the boys” or having mostly male friends precludes having an awareness of feminist issues in any way shape or form and don’t see why one can’t do both. Of course I’m not really sure what we exactly mean by being “one of the boys” here and assume it’s different in each person’s case. I realize I didn’t address that part of FT’s post to me earlier because I don’t really think that’s what I was doing on the WS thread—at least not intentionally so. I think it was more the other stuff about inserting myself.

Is it time to go home yet? Early birthday dinner tonight!

yeah—and one of the things that made it (the being one of the boys thing) better was knowing that other women had also been there/done that, and that i had role models or at least partners in commiseration. Like when my life fell apart 2 years ago, I had a female acquaintance (friend-of-a-friend) that I almost immediately contacted, “Hey L****, i know you’ve had the experience of starting and running an arts space with your husband, who then cheated on you. Guess what I just found out! Ugh!!!”

i was really proud of being mistaken for a boy by adult strangers while i was a kid, for as long as i could be—and then i moved to a school with uniform, so i was marked as a girl. boys weren’t particularly better friends to me or anything (in fact i really suffered trying to make myself fit in with a gang of boys, trying to impress them, trying to get them to let me in), maybe it was because i idolised my big brother, I dunno. and then puberty happened, and girls’ school, and so i was a girl but the people i wanted to be were always male. and so “being a girl who is one of the boys” seemed to be my one option for being a person, since it was clear i would never be “a girl” the way other girls were doing it.

looking back i’m sad that i could only see it as a binary choice. and how much bullshit i internalised and invented myself that made femininity ‘bad’ (especially given that i was brought up by feminists, and tbh most of my friends were female). but... i don’t know, it really could have been worse, i guess? and i spent enough time doing all that bullshit as an adolescent that i don’t have to do it as an adult.

I think there is a difference between “one of the boys” meaning just has lots of male friends and “male” interests—and that “one of the boys” meaning the loophole woman (as per Ariel Levy) in tolerating and validating male bad behaviour and going along with the whole supposition that women themselves (as opposed to notions of Femininity) are, well, *shit* and that thing going even further and actively putting down “women” that you were discussing when talking to Tera

But I don’t know where that line is. It’s a slippery slope not an exact demarkation. And I don’t know exactly how far along that line *I* even meant so I apologise if I implied you were in the wrong place, E, because I don’t actually know and it’s wrong and bad of me to assume I get to say where.

And if it’s your birthday dinner tonight, early happy birthday!

I think is definitely a slippery slope in a lot of cases and something to think about for sure. I’d like to think that not one of those “loophole women” for the most part. I definitely don’t “go along with the whole supposition that women themselves (as opposed to notions of Femininity) are, well, *shit* and that thing going even further and actively putting down ”women“. I do sometimes tolerate and validate male bad behavior but unfortunately that’s something I do with a lot of people and not just men. It’s also something I’m actively working on stopping so we’ll see.

Thanks! Actual birthday isn’t for another 12 days but am joint celebrating with a friend whose was last week so we’re meeting in the middle. :) Have a nice time in Cornwall.

I was one of the boys throughout primary school to such an extent that puberty was a big shock to me—I think I’d been assuming that somehow I would grow up to be Man, or at least Not Woman*, and there I was, suddenly facing this whole being a woman thing, and realising that I wasn’t very good at it

ME TOO. Also: I was nine or ten (I actually can’t remember).

I have done a lot of thinking on why this was for me, and it was a combo of boys always getting to do the cool things I wanted to do (I was a sci-fi/fantasy fan seemingly since birth and the protagonists were ALWAYS boys. I wanted to go out and have adventures, a la Bastian, not sit around nameless in my crumbling crystal castle, crying and waiting for some random kid to rescue me by giving me an identity, plus I wanted to play drums in a heavy metal band (and my elementary school band had a rule (lifted the year after I started, but by then I’d already committed to an instrument and we couldn’t afford another one) that you had to be a sixth grade boy to play the drums), etc.) and of my family (particularly my father) actively and overtly valuing boys over girls. Being a girl really seemed to suck and I wanted no part of it.

I’m quite pleased with how things turned out, however.

Of interest: Sady Doyle posted five long essays she liked from 2011 on longreads.tumblr.com. I’m reading the one about “Kiki Kannibal” and it’s pretty devastating.

not sit around nameless in my crumbling crystal castle, crying and waiting for some random kid to rescue me by giving me an identity

Oh God even as kid I knew she was unbelievably irritating. Gah. Hated her—still do.

nd of my family (particularly my father) actively and overtly valuing boys over girls

I feel really lucky that I never ever experienced this growing up. At least not on the home front. Granted I am an only child so there weren’t any boys around to actively be favored on a daily basis but neither of my parents ever made me feel like there wasn’t anything I couldn’t do because of my gender or that boys were better than girls. Not once.

I think having gone to an all-girls school and then an all-women’s college (in a co-ed environment) for a couple years also helped in some ways.

Re the gender stuff at home—it’s pretty amazing that this was my experience too because my dad is one of the least progressive people I’ve ever met and can be downright misogynistic at times. I don’t really know how or why I was spared but I was.

I have packed as much as I’m going to be able to do tonight, but this is still banging around in my head, and I kinda want to say this before I disappear off to Cornwall because interweb reception in Mousehole is *terrible* (which is kinda why I like the place, TBH) but there are some things that I do need to address before I disappear and the sandbox disappears and we lose the plot. Like, about this stuff:

Also, I need to say this because I was really upset at the time but you were really horrible to me and all of the other women in this thread not that long ago. I know it was in reaction to the situation you’re describing above but I don’t really think that makes it OK. I was hurt and extremely upset when you completely dismissed my academic/work experience in a post that can only be described as a personal attack. I needed to mention this because it seems strange to me to be having these discussions without at least acknowledging that whole thing happened. I mean, you also took it outside ILX which just wasn’t on. I also realize that I responded in a pretty cruel and perhaps harsher way than was necessary but I was really upset (and understandably so imo) at the time.

OK, there’s like 3 different threads tangled up in this which I need to get at, and it is going to result in 1) an unconditional apology 2) a semi-apology explanation which is merely that—an explanation, but not a justification or an excuse and 3) a non-apology

It is hard coming back to this because it was a really painful thing—for both of us, obviously, but also, you’re right. I said some shit that got everyone involved by association, which wasn’t fair. Which is why I’m saying this, on the thread, and not via private email. Because it became so public. But it’s also hard because I don’t actually *remember* a lot of the stuff that went down, because, like I kinda said on another thread, that experience of being bullied under the weight of such a huge clusterfuck actually triggered a mental health episode that was so bad it put me in hospital. I’m not trying to make this excuse of “oh, I have MH issues, I don’t have to justify my behaviour”—I am trying to explain that when I get into a paranoia-depression spiral like that, I am sometimes not entirely cognizant of what I’m doing or saying. Which is a pretty scary place for me to be. So sometimes it’s like having to explain the behaviour of this weird party guest who crashes my head that *I* don’t even understand when I’m not in the grips of that kind of episode.

1) The shit about your academic degree/experience. This is inexcusable, and I utterly and unreservedly apologise for that. This is stuff that I *know* is hurtful, because I hate it when people do it to me—that whole “oh god, womensstudiessplaining” thing that I got on the WS thread—dismissing this stuff as some academic exercise rather than the actual lived experience of our lives—this is invalid, unfair and uncalledfor. It is maybe something we could talk about on this thread—is there a difference between academic study and lived experience (because I’m pretty heavy on the lived experience but have 0 academic expertise on this outside 8th grade women’s studies—I am a total auto-didact on the subject.) But as a basis for an insult, it was completely out of line and I will never knowingly pull that shit again.

2) Widening the scree of my anger to other women on the Girl Thread. This is a tough one. Because yes, a lot of it was depression-paranoia spiral, that thing when, one or two people are actually bullying me (whether or not you thought a 500 post clusterfuck is bullying or not is immaterial—it felt like bullying to me, being the focus of it) everyone and anyone becomes suspect, I think the world is out to get me. As individuals, the women who post on this thread (and ILX in general) who I have a HUGE amount of respect for, who have opened my mind, shown me new things, given support, just generally been A+++ human beings. I’m not going to pretend it’s always cuddlestein mountain and there aren’t people that I feel friction with. But on the whole, I have no malice and a whole lot of admiration for the women here.

BUT—things sometimes appear differently in group dynamics. There was something that emil.y posted a while back, about how when this thread disappears into lipstick and dresses and I forget exactly what she said, but it was something like here is that kick in the teeth realisation that I totally fail at Being A Girl and I’m excluded from the party. I get that too. And that experience felt like—here was a perfect situation where women should have Got My Back because here was a situation where a woman was being disproportionately maltreated for something men did *all the time* (and some admittedly did get my back, there was honestly a point where I stopped reading and just started counting the posts)—and instead of Getting My Back it felt like some women just threw up their hands and said “what did you expect, talking about your vagina” which was just “well what did you expect, getting raped, when you went out drinking in a skimpy outfit!” style victim blaming in new and exciting clothes. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. I don’t remember exactly what happened or in what order. (And I really do not want to get into another fight about what display names are appropriate for men but not for women.) But that is how it felt, to me, at the time. Like I’d been kicked out of the Girl Club. And I lashed out. Blindly. And hit some people I really really respect. So I would like to apologise to anyone that I hit while I was in that state, without having to apologise for being in that state in the first place, if that makes any sense at all.

3. The “outside ILX” stuff—this is one of those grey areas. Because are you honestly trying to tell me that no one on this thread has ever *gone home and talked to their partner about someone on ILX *gossiped about ILX people in the pub *emailed or texted people to discuss stuff ILX0rs do *talked about another ILX0r while in a chat *posted ILX-related stuff on Facebook and yes *posted “grr argh!” stuff about ILX on twitter

Because there’s like this sliding greyscale of public/private interactions involving the internet and social media. I am still working out what’s OK and what’s not.

There is shit that happens on ILX that you *have to* scream about NOT on ILX for whatever reason: because you don’t want to get in a big public fight, because you don’t want to start a clusterfuck, because you don’t want to get the SBs for saying something ~controversial!~, because it’s not appropriate to say it to someone’s face, because you’re just blowing off steam and you will calm down in a day or two and come back and be reasonable.

I am sorry that you saw it. I am sorry you were hurt by it, and that other people on this thread were hurt by it. I am sorry that it became dragged back into yet another huge public ILX meltdown. (Because that was not pleasant for me, when I had set my twitter to private, and I suddenly had all these follow requests from cretins like Chaki wanting to rubberneck on the carnage.) But I am *not* sorry that I took my steam-blowing off ILX to somewhere I thought was more private or safe or acceptable to blow my steam. Because I do recognise that when one is in a ARRGGGH RRRRRAGE mode, that shit does not belong on ILX and people should be allowed to have private or semi-private ways of discussing ILX-induced rage without being penalised for it on ILX. Maybe twitter was not the right place for it, and I should have saved it for 750words or for emails or LiveJournal, but that rage was something I needed to express OFF ILX or that clusterfuck would have been much, much worse. In fact, I feel kinda betrayed that someone on ILX was copy/pasting or linking my twitter here, because I try not to link my social media on here due to, well, not wanting ::insert ILX bully here:: to know where I live, go on holiday and have access to my stream of consciousness thoughts.

But I don’t think we will ever resolve the public / social media / private communication issue, we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

If you have made it to the end of this, congratulations. I am sorry this is so long, but this is stuff that I thought needed a proper, thorough explanation, and proper apologies where due.

Respect for that.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/16/baby-lips-thanks-for-the-infantilization-maybelline/

Sigh. I have like three of these because I am a giant sucker with a thing for tinted lip balm.

Hmmm. I agree with everything the essay said except that I’m not sure that those lip balms are actually “a straightforward example of the infantilization of adult women”.

I hadn’t thought about it before but I would have just taken it to mean that they would give you baby soft lips instead of chapped. People of all genders use phrases about skin being “as soft as a baby’s butt”, right? I think there are examples of the infantalization of women everywhere and it drives me up a wall. Ctrl F posts I made last spring/summer about the jumpers being made for adult women. I just think this example is sort of reaching too far.

BTW Kate—I did read you post btw and it was pretty great in a lot of ways. I just haven’t had a chance to write the response it deserves yet. I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring it/you.

I kinda grew up not really feeling like a girl, or at least ignoring it. I always had a mix of girl and guy friends. I like people who are in the middle of gender identity (behavior and interests)—men who are sorta feminine, women who are sorta masculine. I feel I fall in this category.

I’ve been trying hard to remember and I don’t think there were that many times (when I was a little kid) where I considered being a girl as what I am, first and foremost or as a thing that would stop me doing something or cause me to be expected to do something. I read tons of books (mainly Enid Blyton, ha) and even though there was housewifey Anne and tomboy George, I never identified along gender lines apart from knowing I wasn’t the appearance-obsessed type that seems to be the butt of jokes in EB books, Narnia books, etc. I had a female best mate at primary school but also hung around with boys lots because they were often funny, and in my church group as a teen I was mostly the only girl but it didn’t matter because we all loved the same movies and TV and taking the piss out of silly church stuff. I just don’t think it occurred to me to think about ‘being a girl’ that much even when I was either begging for a dumb make-up kit or playing with Micro Machines.