Oh man so much I want to say but I am at work & on an iPod .
shit, meant to post as anonymous mod, sorry
Hahah thank you!
oh also . . .
“benefited from men’s sexism and used it in her best interests again and again and again for many years and doesn’t really ”notice“ it becuase it works TO HER ADVANTAGE.”
This is something that I’m sure I’ve done many many times both consciously and unconsciously and it’s something I carry around a lot of guilt about. Like, I feel bad because I know that most times this works to my advantage while for other women that’s obv not the case.
OK—badly timed meeting. Back later.
consciously and unconsciously
errr subconsciously
feeling guilty about that is just another way of internalizing anger and directing it at yourself imo. acknowledging that that’s a reality of an unequal society in which women are objectified should ideally free you from feeling like it’s your fault when it happens.
lol go to your meeting!
like, there’s a privilege involved in benefiting from male sexism but it’s pretty limited and it seems like you’re aware of it, which is what’s important.
i feel like i get treated as an “honorary dude” a lot—for better or for worse
This weekend I spent way too much time reading reviews of classic YA novels & now I feel nostalgic and horrible.
I know the feeling. Sometimes I feel like I could spend the rest of my life just reading old YA novels and be happy.
This guy was asking me if I could make a list of “chick” and “dude” traits, like just rhetorically, not that everyone has them but as they are stereotyped, and I said, “I like to drink beer, watch soccer, and work on bikes, so you might be asking the wrong person.”
On that subject there’s some really good stuff about “patriarchal bargains” out on the Internet that is really OTM. Also I’ve benefitted plenty from sexism, on purpose and unconsciously, I think probably everybody has. I can’t judge other women for doing the same—I blame the patriarchy.
In retrospect if I even made him think just a little bit, it was probably worth it. He kept describing dumb dudes who get butthurt easily as “girls” and I corrected him to “babies” a couple of times, and my friend said, “You should appreciate how gentle she’s being with you right now” and I was like “I’m just offering him an alternative to his regrettable word choice, so when he realizes he regrets it, he’ll have another option.” So mad.
when you say “benefited from sexism” what kinds of things are you talking about? I’m trying to think of how I’ve benefited from it — apart from like, not always having to carry heavy objects, or not getting punched when i tell off some crazy dude.
occasionally i will let a man pay for me on a date, which is not very feminist of me and brings up all kinds of weird issues (does this person now feel like they are owed sex?) but i feel like it’s justifiable to based on the wage gap and the fact that i foot the sexual health bill 99% of the time (birth control, visits to obgyn, treatment for the many things that can go wrong that aren’t a problem for people with genitals on the outside of the body, etc.) so it’s kind of a draw, i guess (i still offer to pay always).
the only times in recent memory that guys have paid for my food/drinks were:
1. on my birthday
2. lunch w/a male friend i was giving tax advice
3. lunch w/my ex-bf
catching up . . .
btw Sarah the lipstain/card were mailed today :)
It’s not really about that, I’m pretty sure, although the most common & accepted patriarchal bargain is probably the one in which women trade their fertility, sexuality, domestic work, personal assets, and emotional support for men’s improved economic status, WHEN the exchange is primarily transactional.
Half the moronic male managers here have no idea how to interact with me because I have actual conversations & dont flirt in the office at all. I found out through a co-worket one manager was “scared” of me. As far as I know it’s because I have politely disagreed with him in casual conversation. o_O
But there is no WAY i’d ever play the game needed to be accepted by that guy (professionally), or the management in general (90% old male sales execs). I know it hurts my “career” such as it is, but I’d rather be genuine & lower paid than be fake & flirt my way into an office with a window. I should be angrier, I guess, but I’m just glad I like what I do, can speak my mind & be mostly autonomous.
i just feel like i’m atypical—though i’m probably not.
lol—i think i tried to make that patriarchal bargain, but it ended doing a lot for my improved economic/social status, and not as much for his, and the rest is tmi in the 77 break up thread on real ILX.
I just started reading Laura Kipnis’s latest book, “The Female Thing,” and her thesis is similar: That feminism and traditional femininity are at odds with each other, and that compliance with the traditional trappings of femininity only serves to keep women down. I’m not too far into it yet, but in the intro she points out that traditional femininity wasn’t directly put upon women, but created by women themselves as a rational response to their own powerlessness. She argues that, now that women have the same legal rights as men, we’re still choosing to embrace these feminine things, and that feminism has been complicit or even supportive of that embrace. And, in embracing these things, women are complicit in their own oppression.**
Where Kipnis loses me is in her failure to recognize that women embrace the traditionally feminine because it still confers great benefits on us. It even confers benefits on us within the realm of feminist activism — just look at how Gloria Steinem was received as compared to, say, Kate Millett. Ridiculous and unfair? Yes. But no one has ever told me that I’m only a feminist because I can’t snag a man.
From here.
i don’t really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally.
maybe (probably) i am one of those annoying happy friendly people you were referring to upthread? who knows. sometimes i get mad, and when i do i say something. the other times i go into teacher mode and try to illustrate a better way to be.
Yes. I think I am probably pretty similar to you in that respect.
Although I’m not that happy/friendly all the time. Maybe like 70%.
i don’t really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally
In fact, I used to be a lot angrier but years ago realized that it was doing me a lot more bad than good on a personal level and decided to let go of some of it. In general but also in respect to the topic at hand. That’s sort of what I was getting at earlier.
Also Jenny I’m sorry if I came off as ultra defensive and rude earlier. Obv a sensitive topic for me.
well no one is happy or friendly ALL the time
lol, I know! I was kidding about the 70%. I can get as grumpy anyone but I think I’m happier/friendly more so than not and if I’m angry or upset at something those emotions are directed at that particular thing/person in particular. Usually.
okay so i finally put my profile pics and background on okc on friday night and as of today i have two dates
this thing may actually work
I was being sensitive, too! Angry, bitter, threatened are loaded words in this context so my first two thoughts were, roughly, “OMG! Battle stations!” and then “That’s ENBB, I have to be reading this wrong.”
A way in which I benefitted from sexism: hanging out with dudes and when they talked shit about various women for being sluts or prudes or too high maintenance or slovenly or too fat or always on a diet or being girly and shallow or manly and dykish, I would join in to differentiate myself from these other, inferior women and so keep these dudes from turning their criticisms on me. This was largely in high school/college but I retained tendencies to act like one of the guys because that tended to draw praise from dudes until law school when I made some brash, irrverant (I thought) comment about “What’s wrong? Does your pussy hurt?” to a male classmate and my still good friend Emily was like “What the fuck is wrong with you?” causing me to reexamine my behavior.
I still cringe in embarrassment to think of that, but I appreciated the call out.
jenny that was me too
i’ve also been there, and also cringe at it.
Oh, here is a link that is relevant to some previous discussions: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/12/impossibly-beautiful.html
Well, for one instance: You know the way men say, “Smile, beautiful” and in that and other ways try to make you interact with them as a happier/more agreeable person than you feel like? When that happens to her, she thinks, “That was nice of that strange man, he wants me to have a better day. I guess now I *do* feel like smiling!”
No offense to anyone but I can’t imagine anyone reacting this way? Unless maybe James Franco said it? And then only maybe? Any time some strange dude tells me to smile it’s GLOWER CITY, sir.
For reals. I swear.
ENBB, the friend of mine that he’s dating is sort of like you, in that respect: She never thought about it, because she never noticed anyone abridging her rights, because she just did what she wanted, cheerfully, anyway, and thought, aww wasn’t it nice of that person to look out for me? Meanwhile hypothetical possibly-lechy older guy or whomever is left in her wake feeling lucky that she smiled at him so glowingly and asked for his help.
O_o
― Making like Melusine (Pyth), Monday, December 5, 2011 1:49 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink
I’m still sort of bewildered by this one. I guess maybe I’m imagining her asking for directions or something and just really don’t see many man thinking that way? Or, I mean if they did think that I don’t really see how it’s that bad? If an attractive/nice guy smiled broadly at me in a similar situation I would probably feel good about it too?
I mean, the answer might just a be a simple “it’s totally different because it’s a woman v. man” but I don’t know that that is necessarily always true.
I have a pretty and very charismatic friend who walks a very thin line between the kind of happy bubbly innocence Pyth is describing, and a knowing deployment of it to achieve things large and small. E.g. large = professional relationships, small = cheap drinks. I find it really hard to tell the two apart, but I do believe both are going on, the innocence and the deployment—sometimes together, but sometimes just one or the other.
I appreciate ENBB’s forthrightness itt. I’m pretty ignorant about feminist thought, and I don’t pay as much attention to gender relationships as I should. I don’t feel the rage, and I’m not sure whether that’s a bad thing or not, but I know that I *do* like open debate in threads like this and I’m glad ENBB mentioned her occasional incomprehension, because I’ve felt it too and wondered whether and how to address it here.
xxpost Abbs: a manager at work (who purports to be the nicest guy on the planet but who is really a douchebag in sheep’s clothing) took one of my not-very-bright girl friends to task when she was working in his department, apparently because she did’t say hello to people in the morning. He told her that if she initiated the “hello” she would seem more attractive and likeable. She told this to me proudly as something that changed her life, like ‘wasn’t that great of him to set me straight like that?“. I was like, ”NO!!!“ She’s the most attractive woman I know, she’s friendly and sociable as it is, and she has always kicked ass at her job...but somehow she gets taken in by all this male senior management bullshit that she needs to somehow make herself MORE attractive to succeed. Makes me insane.
He also told another friend of mine that she shouldn’t eat lunch on her own, because people will think she is a loner and not want to socialize with her.
oh and these are tidbits he only gives to women. Have NEVER in 10 years heard anecdotal evidence of him taking any of the junior male staff under his wing for protips on how to be more charming or winning at their jobs.
There may be many good reasons to say hello and friends you know & everyone you meet but that is not one of the reasons I would list.
I am having so much of an easier time being friendly to strangers now that I don’t live in a place where men offer unsolicited comments in public. Before, the embarrassment and pressure I felt was twisting and killing a lot of sunnier feelings. Also when someone does make unwelcome advances, I don’t see red as much & am more likely to be calm about confronting them in a non-angry way.
Although I walked home a different way today and someone did say something. Not obscene, but not fun.
My gym teacher once told me “consider the source and rise above” and I think that’s good advice for dealing with bad advice of all kinds. Every once in a while I will get on a My Feminist This kick but I only have so much energy to lecture people and I kind of have to save it for my students. I figure I am not going to win anyone over by starting my sentences with “ACTUALLY,...” ***not*** that I am saying anyone here does that. But I sure have and it gets me no-where. I think maybe people change their minds about big issues by sudden surprise and the best way I can be a part of that surprise is just by living well for myself in an uncompromising way. I want to give others the room to do that, too (unless they are totally odious, ha ha). There are lots of different ways to deal with...everything...and many of them are good...so it’s ok if people choose different things. Why am I saying all this???
My favorite way to deal with unsolicited comments is the over the shoulder flip-offf as I walk away. Don’t even look back, just show them the bird. Oooh it burns them! It feels so good! A tiny part of me worries I am going to get my sassy ass beat to pieces one day tho.
Hahaha I’ve done that more than once! Just got me yelled at and called more names, because if a guy is aggressive enough to tell you about your ass in public, he’s aggressive enough to resent that you don’t want to hear about it.
Yes, the yelling, I love it. I LOVE THE POST-RAGE YELLING. It’s why I keep parking my scooter in this one spot I know will get me passive-aggressive notes. I just love seeing someone get so mad about something so simple and harmless that I have a right to be doing (having a body in public, parking at my apartment complex). This morning someone had written
STOP
PARKING
YOU
ASS
on the dirt in the windshield and it made my day.
I don’t know if it’s the areas I lived in or what but I p much never get unsolicited comments on the street. Like maybe once or twice a year or something.
Hahah what? Stop parking, like, at all??? Anywhere??
when i yell at people these days it’s not usually to try and change their minds in good faith, tbh; it’s to blow off steam. i’m sure that doesn’t speak very highly of me but what can you do.
A funny vid on a particular type of racialized streetcalling:
“Somehow, it never seems to matter what the woman likes or appreciates, which is this unexplored dimension of street harassment. If the objection to women protesting street harassment is that we should forgive a man’s clumsy attempts to pick up a woman he finds attractive, then wouldn’t not offending a woman be pretty high on that man’s priority list?”
Yeah idk?? They don’t have motorcycle spots at my apts and the property manager won’t let me park on the sidewalk (which makes sense bcz then where wld ppl walk around or use their wheelchairs). I keep getting notes like this one:
THEY FILL ME WITH SICK PELASURE
That Racialicious post was really good.
when i yell at people these days it’s not usually to try and change their minds in good faith, tbh; it’s to blow off steam. i’m sure that doesn’t speak very highly of me but what can you do.
LOL yeah.
I flipped off a bus driver this morning and yelled “KISS MY ASS YOU FUCKER” but that was unrelated to ideology and all about him waiting at the bus stop while the light was read, until I arrived at the door, at which point the light turned green and he pulled away. Jagoff.
Whoah, this one is really striking something in me.
The comments in that one are pretty good too.
“Great post. Street harrassment, sexual assault, and the way violence is gendered are NOT public health issues. The framing of these problems as a public health problem rather than a systematic form of social oppression tends to place the burden for preventing them onto health professionals and social workers, tending to focus on the health problems of VICTIMS of this type of violence, instead of actually stopping the violence or questioning it. Even in the event that the problems a perpetrator may have are dealt with through public health initiatives, this tends to portray the perpetrators of that violence as having some kind of abnormality, they are ”crazy“ men who can’t control themselves, when in fact we normalize and encourage this type of violence everyday. We need solutions that address the oppressive system, not solutions that individualize the problem. The framing of violence as a public health issue which should therefore be addressed by the government has led to victims being forced to seek help from government funded programs which individualize the problem, blame them, and define ”success“ in terms of success in the capitalist system, meanwhile the oppression is perpetuated by the attitude which the public health system betrays in the solutions it provides to the problem.” <—I love this one.
Sorry so long!
The comments on that post were great!
“Just because we’re both Black doesn’t mean you’re entitled to my Black body. I let *you* know if and when I want to be bothered. Until then, zip it and focus on whatever the hell it was you’re doing before I walked by. And if you weren’t focused on anything, I suggest getting a focus besides me. Dig?”
Not to change the subject, but does anyone have wide feet? Its impossible to buy shoes that don’t kill and online ordering is a pain in the ass, since I have to get them delivered to work. Tips? Stories? I’m tired of wearing sneakers with everything.
11 wide! Woo.
I don’t have tips other than I have developed a familiarity with some brands that I know work and I take advantage of Zappos free shipping to buy more than one pair of shoes and send the ones that don’t work back.
Payless and plus size clothing stores like Avenue and Lane Bryant carry wide widths in stores but their shoes are all equally crappy.
i have wide feet. i just wear men’s shoes.
I do that, too.
*raises hand* 9 wide, here. I buy from Zappos when I can afford it and scrounge around at Ross/Bealls Outlet/whatever when I can’t.
Oh, Nordstrom Rack generally has a good selection of shoes for the large of foot.
thanks all! i got really discouraged when i went to macy’s and they were like “we carry NO wide shoes” and same with aerosoles, and i didn’t want to be condemned to buying shoes online. maybe i will just have to give it another shot.
It sucks but non-crappy, non-discount warehouse shoe retailers just don’t carry wide widths.
Oh, I’ve had some luck at places like Kohl’s, DSW, and some outlets.
Also, re buying on line, I like to comparison shop between Zappos and Endless bc sometimes Endless is a lot cheaper.
*shrugs* I prefer shopping online, anyway. Better selection and no driving (I live in a place where I have to drive 7 miles to get out of the woods and 20 miles to get to a medium-sized town.)
yeah. the big zappos and DSW boxes being delivered to my cubicle are a bit embarassing :/ how do NYers who don’t live in doormen buildings receive packages?
Everyone gets everything at work, and it’s not considered embarrassing. :)
We aren’t allowed to get personal packages at work. :/
I am not allowed to receive mail at work (and we are prohibited from dropping personal mail in the office outgoing mail bins—the mail room supervisor sent out an email to all staff with a lost of people’s names and their mail (plus the unidentifed personal mail) with instructions to retrieve said items immediately) so I have things sent to Jeff at work or I pay $5 to have them sent to a UPS store front. :/
For large parts of Bklyn, the nearest “UPS hub” is like out the fuck by the airport or something. (Which btw isn’t even in Brooklyn, it’s in Queens.) So if no one can answer the door at your house during the day, you are kinda screwed. I didn’t realize they charged extra for getting yr package from a UPS store but I just looked them up and they’re all FRANCHISES, so I guess they have to make a profit somehow?!? Blerghgghh
UPS now has a website called myups.com or something where you create an account and you can then authorize them electronically to leave packages on your stoop. I’ve used this like 5 times already. It’s great.
same here — hub is out in the burbs, relying on neighbors always sketchy but better than trying to find one’s way to the burbs
Hahahahaha packages on the stoop, that’s a good one.
?
Cause ppl would swipe it them, you mean? I guess I’ve been lucky.
OutSIDE? All day??
yeah ¯\(º o)/¯
tho the ppl on the 2nd flr will put stuff inside the first door if they get home first
I’m glad that has worked out for you. We do that in MI, of course, but it would be a bad idea anywhere else I’ve lived.
me too
i barely trust my neighbors
Yeah maybe I shouldn’t do it but I’ve been doing it a bunch lately and haven’t had anything go missing yet. The street gets a lot of traffic too so I guess it’s sort of surprising. Hmmmmm. I might not do it anymore.
Re getting packages: Sometimes your building’s mailboxes might be in a foyer or lobby, in which case the mailman will have a skeleton key thing to get in there and can leave packages on the floor. This does not help for UPS/FedEx, though, and it also does not help if your mailboxes are outside of the building and there’s nowhere to leave anything.
Oh yeah, the UPS hub is… I don’t even know because when packages have ended up out there I have found it more efficient to let them send the item back to the retailer and order it again (or not) than find my way to it. Jesse has mad ethe trip and barely lived to tell the tale.
We live in a three-flat now, so no foyer and we’re on a busy street and while I have occasionally successfully received packages (when I’ve forgotten to change the delivery address), I’ve also had stuff stolen. Our old apt was in a courtyard building w/ a locked gate and sometimes Fed Ex/UPS would literally throw things over the gate into the yard, once right into a snow bank.
here to report that on my picturesque street in not currently sunny Toronto, we leave notes for the post office saying ‘yup, please just leave it at the door, thanks’ (he generally wedges it between glass & solid door) and that’s never been stolen but someone did once dumb a tomato plant over and steal the 10 cent plastic container it was in! :P
That said, I live in a triplex with my landlord and one other apartment, usually people I know (or soon do after a month or two living near them)!
Unrelated. Ladies, I have encountered a frustrating phenomenon with a couple of guts I know, and I’m wondering if it’s a “thing”.
My husband, and my close male friend are both very keen to have me listen to/watch/read things they get into. Which is normal, and I’m totally on board with. Love new things! If they find out I haven’t seen x movie or read y book they will seek to immediately correct it.
But whenever I share stuff I’m into, both of them, without fail, will not read/watch/listen to my own exciting thing I have to share, unless I badger them into it & even then they’re like “meh, it’s okay.”
I’ve called them out, like wtf is this “you can’t teach the teacher bullshit you’re pulling on me.” Not that I need them to give me validation of things I enjoy, but how come my shit is never as cool as their shit, when I *know* it is if they weren’t so quick to dismiss me? Is it a dude phenomena in general? A personality type? Do any of you have this with significant others?
I dont know why it bugs me so much...but I’ve always love sharing my passions with my friends...it kinda hurts to feel like a lame girl with my “little” things, you know?
lol *guys, not guts. haha
My husband does that too! I chalk it up to him being dumb and not realizing my AWESOME. :P
i’ve had friends like that of both genders — try to limit my enthusiastic foisting to people who have shown that they specifically would be interested in that thing. just because i’m super into it doesn’t mean that anyone else is likely to be.
I think that’s sad, veg, and I’m sorry it makes you blue. It might be a “dude” thing, quite possibly? Because there’s a def recorded phenomenon in which girls/women will invest themselves into stories, hobbies, things with male characters and/or directed at men, but boys/men on the whole do not return the interest in things with female characters/directed at women. Maybe yr dudes have internalized this kinda thing?
I’ve heard lots of stories from girls about guys doing that to them, but it doesn’t seem to happen to me. I think possibly I avoid it through the ‘honorary dude’ status that sarahel was talking about upthread.
Yeah, I think I may have been similarly fortunate because I don’t feel like this happens all that often with me.
there’s no official ban on it here. my main embarrassment is that the last time I did it, I had to return three pairs of shoes multiple times, because the sizes were all wrong, and then the new sizes were still off, and it looked like i was just getting a daily influx of shoes...:) i used to be in charge of the mail for my center and NO ONE ever got non-work packages delivered except for me! i can’t speak for the wider college (i work at a university) but now that i’m not on mail anymore, i feel awkward doing it—i would feel less so if at least one other person used it for these purposes!
xp — that used to happen with one of my ex-roommates (female). the last time i had it was with the wire, with a married couple i was friends with, and once they moved away i’ve stopped recommending it to them. they were very resistant to watching!
that last post had a lot of exclamation points. i don’t normally talk like that...
xp—tbh i am probably the one who does this more frequently
I used to be one of those girls that said “All my friends are guys, I don’t really like girls” which I cringe at now but it was true to an extent. For a long time my closest friends were almost exclusively guys. This has changed a lot over time in part because I’ve met some awesome and amazing women but also because I let myself realize that not all girls suck and I’ve become a lot more open to female friendships. Anyway, I think part of the reason that was the case is that I’ve always been into a lot of “guy stuff” in terms of pop culture interests? I don’t know. I’ve also been pretty privileged insofar as that I’ve known a lot of really great and amazing men. Plus, if I thought someone was dismissing something I was interested in based on my gender I would be really fucking pissed off.
And they would know it real quick.
I like lots of things and try to be interested in stuff but I’m definitely NOT into some things, too—just no time. But then, I think the important thing is for people to share ideas and be excited even if the specifics aren’t both their kettle of fish?
For honesty’s sake I try not to patronizingly give the vague impression that I’ll try their thing if I know I’m not going to. If I’m doing a good job, the person is going to know that I’m not into baseball or knitting or w/e but will tell me about it anyway because I’m into them and it’s fun to talk. I want people to WANT to tell me things!