??
What kind of Google Image Search were you on?
i guess that it’s inevitable that this thread would be revived ... so i am reviving it myself.
Trayce spotted this: Obama’s now under attack from other continents.
When’s the election down there, anyway?
Howard shouldn’t be starting beef with someone trying to quit smoking.
http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/02/nicorette.html
Obama responded that Australia currently has 1400 troops in Iraq and if Howard feels so strongly about “fighting the good fight” he should “send 20,000 more Australians to fight in Iraq.”
I know Atrios (for one) has been on a neverending shit-fit since the Swampland blog started with Joe Klein as one of its contributors, but it’s actually been pretty good.
When’s the election down there, anyway?
Not soon enough! Labor are surging out in front now they have a decent leader. What Howard said about Obama is so fucking embarrasing.
PP, none of those links are working for me. can you repost them?
lol
hahaha
What’s so funny? I’m just trying to read that link on Romney
Any of you design types want to deconstruct the logo?
And here’s the main campaign placard:
I like it.
ew!
Hmm. Howard’s comments are getting more airtime over here than I would have expected.
And now let us attack Obama’s church. Thank you, Tucker Carlson!
the Obama fauxat&t/mac logo is refreshing for 1/2 a second, but ultimately sucks
Somebody needs to photoshop “BETA” & add a reflection to that Web 2.0 logo he’s got there
I don’t like it much, there is something peculiar.. it looks like a credit card company trying to update their image..
It looks like an bio/agriculture conglommerate logo to me.
really? I don’t get the complaints I think its pretty smart logo—sunrise+initial+american flag = classic combo of American political images
Here’s a nice New Yorker piece on the guys behind “24”, and why they seem to be so torture-happy, repeatedly using fictional scenes of torture working as justifying its real-life application, as well as the origin of the “ticking time bomb scenario”, which i never knew:
Bob Cochran, who created the show with Surnow, admitted, ““Most terrorism experts will tell you that the ‘ticking time bomb’ situation never occurs in real life, or very rarely. But on our show it happens every week.”µ According to Darius Rejali, a professor of political science at Reed College and the author of the forthcoming book “Torture and Democracy,µ the conceit of the ticking time bomb first appeared in Jean Lartéguy’s 1960 novel ““Les Centurions,” written during the brutal French occupation of Algeria. The book’s hero, after beating a female Arab dissident into submission, uncovers an imminent plot to explode bombs all over Algeria and must race against the clock to stop it. Rejali, who has examined the available records of the conflict, told me that the story has no basis in fact. In his view, the story line of “Les Centurionsµ provided French liberals a more palatable rationale for torture than the racist explanations supplied by others (such as the notion that the Algerians, inherently simpleminded, understood only brute force). Lartéguy’s scenario exploited an insecurity shared by many liberal societies—that their enlightened legal systems had made them vulnerable to security threats.
Another neat bit that I didn’t know is that the Parents Television Council, which is Brent Bozell’s conservative anti-media group, is actually logging the torture scenes on the show. Also, the Brigadier General in charge of West Point flew out to meet w/ the creators of the show:
In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. ““I’d like them to stop,”µ Finnegan said of the show’s producers. ““They should do a show where torture backfires.µ”
Oh yeah, except that the main guy in charge of the show(and big Limbaugh friend) Joel Surnow didn’t show up for the meeting. This guy’s also working on the Fox News response to the Daily Show.
The other scary thing is the guys working on the show who have actual law degrees, but are straight outta the Alberto Gonzalez school, holding that torture is legal & fine & good in certain circumstances.
b-but kiefer sutherland!
Fox News response to the Daily Show.
any news on this one?
Afterward, Danzig and Finnegan had an on-set exchange with Kiefer Sutherland, who is reportedly paid ten million dollars a year to play Jack Bauer. Sutherland, the grandson of Tommy Douglas, a former socialist leader in Canada, has described his own political views as anti-torture, and “leaning toward the left.µ According to Danzig, Sutherland was “really upset, really intenseµ and stressed that he tries to tell people that the show “is just entertainment.µ But Sutherland, who claimed to be bored with playing torture scenes, admitted that he worried about the “unintended consequences of the show.µ Danzig proposed that Sutherland participate in a panel at West Point or appear in a training film in which he made clear that the show’s torture scenes are not to be emulated. (Surnow, when asked whether he would participate in the video, responded, “No way.µ Gordon, however, agreed to be filmed.) Sutherland declined to answer questions for this article, but, in a recent television interview with Charlie Rose, his ambivalence about his character’s methods was palpable. He condemned the abuse of U.S.-held detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, in Iraq, as “absolutely criminal,µ particularly for a country that tells others that “democracy and freedomµ are the “way to go.µ He also said, “You can torture someone and they’ll basically tell you exactly what you want to hear. . . . Torture is not a way of procuring information.µ But things operate differently, he said, on television: “24,µ he said, is “a fantastical show. . . . Torture is a dramatic device.µ
Danzig proposed that Sutherland participate in a panel at West Point or appear in a training film in which he made clear that the show’s torture scenes are not to be emulated.
omg plz make and post youtube version now.
wow, this guy IS a piece of work:
In recent years, Surnow and Nowrasteh have participated in the Liberty Film Festival, a group dedicated to promoting conservatism through mass entertainment. Surnow told me that he would like to counter the prevailing image of Senator Joseph McCarthy as a demagogue and a liar. Surnow and his friend Ann Coulter—the conservative pundit, and author of the pro-McCarthy book “Treasonµ—talked about creating a conservative response to George Clooney’s recent film “Good Night, and Good Luck.µ Surnow said, “I thought it would really provoke people to do a movie that depicted Joe McCarthy as an American hero or, maybe, someone with a good cause who maybe went too far.µ He likened the Communist sympathizers of the nineteen-fifties to terrorists: “The State Department in the fifties was infiltrated by people who were like Al Qaeda.µ But, he said, he shelved the project. “The blacklist is Hollywood’s orthodoxy,µ he said. “It’s not a movie I could get done now.
A year and a half ago, Surnow and Manny Coto, a “24µ writer with similar political views, talked about starting a conservative television network. “There’s a gay network, a black network—there should be a conservative network,µ Surnow told me. But as he and Coto explored the idea they realized that “we weren’t distribution guys—we were content guys.µ Instead, the men developed “The Half Hour News Hour,µ the conservative satire show. “ ‘The Daily Show’ tips left,µ Surnow said. “So we thought, Let’s do one that tips right.µ Jon Stewart’s program appears on Comedy Central, an entertainment channel. But, after Surnow got Rush Limbaugh to introduce him to Roger Ailes, Fox News agreed to air two episodes. The program, which will follow the fake-news format popularized by “Saturday Night Live,µ will be written by conservative humorists, including Sandy Frank and Ned Rice. Surnow said of the show, “There are so many targets, from global warming to banning tag on the playground. There’s a lot of low-hanging fruit.µµ
Which reminds me a lot of something Molly Ivans once wrote:
Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel — it’s vulgar.
Hate to do multiple posts quoting the same piece, but this thing is filled. Here’s a money quote:
Laura Ingraham, the talk-radio host, has cited the show’s popularity as proof that Americans favor brutality. “They love Jack Bauer,µ she noted on Fox News. “In my mind, that’s as close to a national referendum that it’s O.K. to use tough tactics against high-level Al Qaeda operatives as we’re going to get.µ Surnow once appeared as a guest on Ingraham’s show; she told him that, while she was undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer, “it was soothing to see Jack Bauer torture these terrorists, and I felt better.µ Surnow joked, “We love to torture terrorists—it’s good for you!µ
Thank you, William Kristol, for having no clue about american history, talking about how Obama is like Stephen Douglas, and Lincoln was just gunnin’ for that war:
KRISTOL: We’re electing a war president in 2008. If I can go back to Obama and Lincoln for just one second, Lincoln’s “house dividedµ speech in 1858 was a speech saying we cannot live as a house divided on slavery. And he implicitly says we’ll have to fight a civil war if necessary on this.
Obama’s speech is a “can’t we get alongµ speech — sort of the opposite of Lincoln. He would have been with Stephen Douglas in 1858. Let’s paper over these differences, rise above politics and all get along. That’s not Giuliani’s mode. And I think in a war context, social conservatives want to win the war against Islamic jihadism.
Of course, there’s that little thing about Douglas’ attitude about slavery, but...
LarSab asides:
By the way, the Crystal Ball is waiting for at least one ’08 candidate to pick a Vice President early, in order to run as a team. Ronald Reagan shocked the GOP National Convention in 1976 with precisely this gambit, choosing Senator Richard Schweiker of Pennsylvania and nearly grabbing the nomination from President Ford.
so who do you think:
a) will go this route
b) with which veep
c) at what stage in the process
for example
a) mccain
b) pawlenty
c) three weeks after the fifth youtube video showing him looking aged/frail
i am hoping all these conservative response movies/tv shows are get produced using hundreds of millions of $$$ from richard mellon scaife and rubert murdoch. they’ll probably be just as awesome as battlefield earth!
dar1a, keep your eyes on here:
http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/
if you’re waiting for the onrush of celluloid
and more barbs traded in the Obama/Howard thing, and some from Kevin Rudd
Mr Howard said this morning that Australia is making a “very significant and appropriate contributionµ given its population.
“I think the most interesting thing about (Senator Obama’s comments) is that it didn’t really address the substance of the issue,µ Mr Howard told ABC Radio.
A science fiction comedy in which a struggling New York artist creates a gateway to another dimension. This edgy, cinema verite, black and white parody of French New Wave style features hilarious scenes of politically-correct artists spouting left-wing/postmodern gibberish to justify their less than original art. You will never look at a black turtleneck the same way.
oh sweet! it’s “edgy” AND “hilarious”!
Meanwhile, more white guys talking about how white Obama is
He’s so white and clean.
“colorless”, even!
“less than original art”
Watch the trailer for “The Testament of Dr. Mabuse”! (German; Feature will have English subtitles)
7:15PM—9:15PM “The Testament of Dr. Mabuse” (121 mins., 1933; German with English subtitles)
Directed by: Fritz Lang. The acclaimed German Expressionist thriller by Fritz Lang (“Metropolis,” “M”) that was banned by the Nazis. A Berlin police inspector investigates a spree of crime and terrorism in which all clues lead to a madman—Dr. Mabuse. Mabuse’s ‘empire of crime’ is eerily similar to the Al Qaeda terror network of today.
Osama Bin Mabuse
“as a conservative you’re supposed to be racist”
why is Orson Welles in the libertyfilm banner?
yeah, have..uhm..fun with their blog, too
From the Eddie Murphy’s Delirious thread:
a. acacia Says:
February 12th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Bob: (which is why you don’t see them publically having a fit over the gay-hostility of rap lyrics, another non-starter.)
I think you’re missing the main point: see, it’s off limits to attack another member of what I would call the Diversity League of America (DLA). There’s a chain of command here, with blacks, having suffered through slavery and Jim Crow, at the top of the DLA pyramid, basically UNTOUCHABLE (see Michael Richards). Gays are on the protected list, too. So they can’t, and won’t, run down a fellow member.
a. acacia Says:
February 12th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Actually, change the above to VLA—the Victims League of America.
Yeah, better.
Buck Turgidson Says:
February 12th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Maybe I’m insensitive, but I’m at a loss as to what was cruel about the going home with AIDS the lips joke.
dood everyone knows the JEWS run the VLA! I am alerting the Elders of Zion to a.acacia’s blasphemous slander.
i’m still not sold on obama, much less obama-mania. but i have to give him props for his (unintented?) ability to make idiots (like glenn beck, joe biden, and even dubya) make really stupid comments about him (the “osama” thing, the “is he black enough for you?” “debate”, etc.).
8:15PM—9:45PM “Repo Man” (93 mins., 1983)
Directed by: Alex Cox. A gritty urban comedy featuing a young Emilio Estevez, about what happens when a shiftless miscreant decides to become a product member of Reagan’s America. Numerous other deviants, criminal elements, and burn-outs from 60’s liberalism are shown getting their just deserts. Features the heroic work of federal agents and scientists trying to recover a stolen weapon of mass destruction.
mmmm product member
productive member, rather
10:15AM—12:45PM “Legend” (160 mins., 1985)
Directed by: Ridley Scott. An allegorical fantasy adventure featuring a young Tom Cruise as a free market hero trying to destroy the dark secular communism of FDR’s New Deal(played by Tim Curry). This lush, timeless epic includes a riveting score by Tangerine Dream and teaches lessons just as relevant in today’s War on Terror as they were back in the Cold War. Keep an eye out for cameos by noted movement conservatives Billy Barty and Robert Picardo!
12:13PM “Democrats Unleash New Tool”—World Premiere! (3 mins., 2006)
Directed and Produced by: Clark Baker. In their own words, Democrats present their strategic philosophy for 2006/2008. Parental advisory: this film contains veiled sexual humor. (Comedy/Documentary, 3 minutes, 2006)
Jesus christ, the college republicans have taken over the term-end F/VS screening
New Wave. Punk. Repo Man. Conservatives are embracing their inner nihilism.
okay they’re bumming me out with the Billy Barty claiming
(next they’ll be praising his inclusion in “Day of the Locust” as a damning portrait of liberal Hollywood)
Romney joins 2008 presidential race
“We have lost faith in government,” Romney said in his native state as he formally entered the 2008 race. “It is time for innovation and transformation in Washington. It is what our country needs. It is what our people deserve.”
His political resume thin — he served just one term as Massachusetts governor — Romney sought to turn that potential weakness into a strength, portraying himself as the best candidate to meet the country’s challenges given his venture capitalist background and proven leadership in the public, private and volunteer sectors.
In doing so, he attempted to draw a stark distinction between his qualifications and those of his top Republican rival, four-term Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona, who is widely considered the GOP candidate to beat after losing to George W. Bush in 2000.
“I don’t believe Washington can be transformed from within by lifetime politicians,” Romney said, an obvious swipe at McCain without mentioning his name. “There have been too many deals, too many favors, too many entanglements — and too little real world experience managing, guiding, leading.”
“I don’t believe Washington can be transformed by someone who has never tried doing such a thing before, in any setting, by someone who has never run a corner store, let alone the largest enterprise in the world,” said Romney, who added: “Talk is easy, talk is cheap. It is the doing that’s hard.”
Although he is not well-known nationally and hardly registers in public opinion polls, Romney is considered a serious candidate in the same tier as McCain and former two-term New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani. Both political celebrities rank at the top of most polls. All three are expected to be able to raise the millions needed for a strong bid.
Yet, all three also have taken positions that don’t necessarily sit well with the GOP’s conservative base that is pivotal in deciding the outcome of the Republican primaries. Romney also faces doubts among some religious conservatives because if elected, he would be the first Mormon president.
Romney, who ran as a moderate in a failed 1994 Senate campaign and his winning gubernatorial campaign eight years later, is trying to convince the party faithful that he is a solid conservative and sincere in his opposition to abortion and gay marriage, two issues critical to the GOP base.
As he tries to runs to the right of McCain and Giuliani, Romney wants to avoid being seen as a Massachusetts liberal flip-flopper, a label that led to the downfall of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee
John Kerry in his race against
President Bush.
Hours after announcing his candidacy, Romney addressed some 300 people who braved the snow to see the candidate at the state fairgrounds in Iowa, the first stop on a campaign tour of the early voting states that will end with a major fundraiser in Boston.
Romney’s shift on some issues didn’t bother at least one voter.
“I know he’s changed his views, but I’m satisfied,” said David Bowen, who works at an agriculture seed company in Grimes, Iowa. “He has more solid social views than anyone, including the other Republicans.”
Romney, 59, was a businessman who spent years amassing a fortune by helping found a venture capitalist firm that invested in fledgling businesses and guided them to grow into healthy corporations.
In 2002, he triumphantly turned the scandal-plagued Olympic Winter Games in Salt Lake City into a success. As governor, he led Massachusetts out of fiscal woes without raising taxes and pushed through a comprehensive overhaul of the health insurance system.
He hopes his record of accomplishment across those sectors will trump any uneasiness conservatives may have about his right-flank credentials and any skepticism they may feel about his Mormon faith.
Some 24 percent in a USA Today-Gallup poll released Tuesday said they would not vote for a Mormon. Almost half in a recent Newsweek poll said the nation is not ready to elect a Mormon president.
In a coming-out of sorts, Romney announced his long-expected candidacy in Michigan, the place of his birth and upbringing as well as an important stop on the path to the GOP nomination.
Just outside of Detroit, Romney laid out his campaign themes before several hundred sign-waving supporters at the sprawling Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. It was a site chosen for its emphasis on ingenuity that dramatically transformed the nation.
The past meeting the present, Romney spoke from a podium in front of an American Motors Corp., Rambler from yesteryear and a Ford Escape Hybrid in the airport-hangar-like museum. He invoked the memory of his late father, George, who served as governor in the 1960s and made an unsuccessful bid for president.
Romney’s wife, Ann, his five grown sons, five daughters-in-law and 10 grandchildren sat off to the side of the main stage as he spoke of the need to strengthen families.
“America can’t continue to lead the family of nations if we fail the families at home,” he said, adding that values and morals are “under constant attack” and promoting families where a mother and a father are in each child’s life.
At home, Romney called for reining in government, making it smaller and less bureaucratic with fewer regulations, and giving power and freedom back to the people, in part, in the form of lower taxes, better schools and more available health care.
On Iraq, Romney reiterated his support for President Bush’s policy in the nearly four-year-old war, although he did not name the president, and said that failure in Iraq “could be devastating” for the United States and could mean a future with far more military involvement and far more loss of American life.
Obama has easy trip to New Hampshire
Obama, who entered the race on Saturday in his home state of Illinois, came to New Hampshire on the heels of New York Sen.
Hillary Rodham Clinton. She faced criticism last weekend for not saying her vote to authorize the use of force in
Iraq was a mistake.
Obama, by contrast, faced little of that skepticism. Even his sharpest questioners began by offering praise and support.
“He hasn’t gotten into specifics, but that’ll come,” state Rep. Jeffrey Fontas said after a Nashua house party with 60 activists. “It’s early, so we’ll see more and more.”
That house party in Nashua brought questions about:
_An Equal Pay Act. Obama helped a state measure during his time in Illinois but didn’t commit to a national version.
_Childcare. Obama said it was a problem; he didn’t offer specifics.
_The USA Patriot Act. Obama is against parts of it but didn’t offer an alternative.
Even while the first-term senator from Illinois didn’t have specific solutions, voters in this first-in-the-nation primary state gave him a pass.
“He takes time, he answers fully,” said state Rep. Melanie Levesque. “I think we need people who can bring people together. He can do that. We’re going to have a tough decision to make.”
Obama called for a national solution to health care but stopped short of endorsing or rejecting proposals for mandatory insurance. He said more young people should consider teaching but stopped short of specific incentives.
Later Monday, at the University of New Hampshire in Durham, Obama discussed Iraq. “Unless we bring that war to a close, we cannot deal with all those other problems I just mentioned,” he said. “Not only has it resulted in the tragic loss in our brave soldiers, but it means we’re spending $400 billion rebuilding Iraq with money that could have been used here.”
Obama did outline an energy plan — a reduction in emissions, cap-and-trade plans for polluting industries, and development of biofuels including ethanol. He also repeated his stance on gay marriage — that civil unions are fine, but marriage is a religious bond.
“I believe that every American has basic rights that have to be respected,” said Obama, who noted that his parents perhaps broke the law when they entered into a biracial marriage in the 1960s.
A member of the university audience asked about his appeal to social conservatives. Obama said one of the best lessons he learned in politics was that he couldn’t make 100 percent of voters happy. He then noted his friendship with the Rev. Rick Warren, who leads one of the nation’s largest megachurches.
And of course this has recieved a lot of attention:
Targeted blogger quits Edwards campaign
One of the chief campaign bloggers for Democratic presidential candidate
John Edwards quit Monday after conservative critics raised questions about her history of provocative online messages.
Amanda Marcotte posted on her personal blog, Pandagon, that the criticism “was creating a situation where I felt that every time I coughed, I was risking the Edwards campaign.” Marcotte said she resigned from her position Monday, and that her resignation was accepted by the campaign.
Kate Bedingfield, a spokeswoman for the Edwards campaign, confirmed that Marcotte was “no longer working for the campaign.” She declined additional comment.
Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, demanded last week that Edwards fire Marcotte and a second blogger, Melissa McEwan, for remarks he deemed anti-Catholic. Edwards, a former North Carolina senator, called the messages personally offensive, but decided to keep Marcotte and McEwan on staff.
“No matter what you think about the campaign, I signed on to be a supporter and a tireless employee for them, and if I can’t do the job I was hired to do because Bill Donohue doesn’t have anything better to do with his time than harass me, then I won’t do it,” Marcotte wrote Monday night.
Earlier Monday, Marcotte wrote on her personal Web site, “The Christian version of the virgin birth is generally interpreted as super-patriarchal, where ... women are nothing but vessels.”
Donohue called both Marcotte and McEwan “foul-mouthed bigots.” He did not return a phone call seeking comment Monday night.
McEwan remains on the Edwards campaign staff. She did not return messages left Monday.
If you think that’s bad, you should check out thre rest of the films on their festival. They’re showing _Slapshot_, _Double Indemnity_, and _Field of Dreams_ in their “Conservative Classics” series.
Double Indemnity? I had no idea insurance fraud was a common liberal vice.
that’s how they get you, ya know
“foul-mouthed bigots.”
criticising religion != bigotry
“The Christian version of the virgin birth is generally interpreted as super-patriarchal, where ... women are nothing but vessels.”
And men are nothing but cuckolds.
i’m surprised that they aren’t showing “ghostbusters,” which always struck me as being kinda libertarian/right-wing ideologically (i.e., 4 entrepreneurs save NYC after almost being thwarted by jack-booted effete snob federal EPA thugs!)
8:20PM “A Journey to Iraq”—World Premiere! (43 mins., 2006)
Directed and Produced by: Benjamin Wilbanks. A group of American Christians travel to Iraq to teach a group of Iraqis how to operate a printing press, and in the process discover that Iraqis are grateful for America’s help and want freedom and progress as much as anyone else. “A Journey to Iraq” shows a side of the War on Terror that is rarely seen in the mainstream media. (Documentary, 43 minutes, 2006)
2:00PM—3:35PM “Hedwig and the Angry Inch” (95 mins., 2001)
Directed by: John Cameron Mitchell. An aspiring young capitalist (John Cameron Mitchell) struggles to escape the communist Eastern Bloc only to be betrayed by a confused deviant youth who does not respect intellectual property rights (Michael Pitt).
Camille Paglia generally OTM in her assessments of the prez contenders(well, her affection for Mitt Romney as hearkening “back to the patrician days of sophisticated Republicanism” is kinda ummmmm, and she sez she’ll vote for HRC if she’s nominated):
Right now, I’m leaning toward John Edwards in the primaries. He has problems — a thin political résumé, a fancy estate at odds with his populist message, and a dated hairstyle that looks femme and foofy at a time when military buzz cuts and Caesarian close crops are in. But Edwards is a ferocious, knife-sharp debater with foxy, seat-of-the-pants smarts, and I hope he creams his opponents. It would be a relief to have an articulate president again...
I love the way Barack Obama has nimbly upstaged the ponderous Hillary machine. It’s a Bette Davis/Joan Crawford bitch fest! But Obama’s effusive gusts of generalities irritate me; it’s all sizzle and no steak right now. He needs seasoning: 2012 may be his year...
On the Republican side, I’ve never understood liberal journalists’ infatuation with John McCain, who’s as mercurial as Hillary in his ideology-of-the-day. Those two are peas in a pod — always dialing up the weather report and sleeping next to a window with their fingers in the wind. If Rudy Giuliani improbably wins the Republican nomination, which would require primary voters shutting their eyes to his liberal social views and checkered sex life, he would roll like a juggernaut into the White House on the strength of his macho authoritarianism in this time of war. Giuliani’s got balls, but do we want this democracy drifting any further toward a police state?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2007/02/14/return/print.html
I haven’t seen evidence of Edwards’ “ferocious, knife-sharp” debating yet.
Well, Al Franken’s in for Senate against Coleman.
If he can really channel the Wellstone thing, he has a shot.
Franken doesn’t want to leave Iraq tomorrow, hence he’s not even Paglia let alone Wellstone.
Well Alfred, she also accuses A___ N___ Smith of having comic verve or something.
Following up the bits I posted upthread, here’s some more about 24’s rightwinger reffing, to the point where you have more columnists & talking heads pointing to the show to support their fears/torture-fuck-wants
Franken isn’t going to channel the Wellstone thing in the sense that he’s going to be neither a former schoolteacher nor a former wrestler, but he might get a bit of eau d’Wellstone by virtue of being at least semi-authentic. I think he can win by virtue of menschiness and humor (ie humanity), but perhaps I am rather naive.
also, C. Paglia is no longer worth any of my neuronal function
was she ever? she’s never been anything more than an occasionally entertaining name-caller to me.
yeah but but but she references Bette David and Joan Crawford!
i mean summoning Wellstone’s progressive stance, orientation, and language.
right. i believe those things had much to do with his lionization by liberals, but little to do with his electoral successes other than in the sense of a fighting spirit. he had the rare ability among contemporary pols to be righteously indignant without ever appearing self-righteous or irrationally angry.
I believe Franken IS an ex-wrestler
oh yeah, i think you’re right, my mistake
he still doesn’t have wellstone’s (literally) pugilistic stance tho. he does a kinder/gentler form of wellstonism.
franken is an ex-wrestler, that’s true. i think he will annoy people..
i’m glad paglia is back, she’s always interesting to read. strangely i see the dem presidential field in much the same way & am def. supporting edwards right now, i like his straightforwardness and the fact that he doesn’t have much to lose this time around, and i also like that he doesn’t take obama’s “transcend politics” approach which might sound nice but is arrogant and kind of insults the voters’ intelligence, politics is everywhere and not any more/less dirty than anything else in life. hillary prob has too much $$$/organizational savvy for edwards to defeat her but you never know.
Edwards is dead in the water
i like his straightforwardness
you rule out the possibility that he’s playing left because there’s no other way for him to get sufficient $ and primary voters?
and they call ME a cynic!
I am leaning Edwards for the moment... dar1a, how will you bear it if we support the same horse?
Franken tackled some heckler during the ’04 campaign!
I just don’t see him occupying any ground that isn’t covered by other, more prominent and skillful candidates. I can’t imagine him having enough far-left appeal (not after his previous candidacy) to raise any serious money.
never mind far-left, Shakey, wt about medium left?
his hem/hawing about s.s. unions has been discouraging tho.
I think the poll in this post is worth consideration wrt Edwards. Tho I wouldn’t oversell it—it’s probable that it reflects the other candidates’ popularity or a name recognition factor before an unpopularity issue.
I suspect the major candidates would try to do & be able to do approximately the same things as president, HRC would have to raise taxes as well if she wanted universal healthcare.
It doesn’t matter re: far-left appeal, the far-left isn’t going to win you anything (most dem primary voters aren’t far-left, esp Iowa, NH), being against the war & for starting to bring troops home is mainstream right now, universal healthcare has a lot of mainstream support, Edwards has a lot of ties to organized labor & has been working on building/strengthening them since 04, he’s also by far the savviest in use of blogs/technology without showing any sign of letting that aspect of his campaign pick up and run away with wild fervor a la Dean. and like Iowa last time around I see him as.. having enough of his own support + being seen as a viable alternative by supporters of the other candidates, it could be a winning formula—he’s not polarizing.
I wouldn’t call Obama dead in the water but I don’t see his campaign as having near the solid support of Edwards and expect him to be the Dean type flash in the pan this time around, albeit less likely to have a spectacular crash and burn
but Dean was just a flash-in-the-pan because he’d made enemies in the party—I doubt he’d have been so derailed otherwise. I don’t see Obama having that same kind of intra-party combativeness.
My ref to the far left/money angle was just in response to gabbneb’s comment about Edwards’ need for $$$. (I know the far left doesn’t have a) a lot of money or b) the sole power to win elections)
how “far” are we talkin? Feingold far?
nonpartisan is a smart guy. we went to the same college (but not at the same time).. I don’t agree with him there, though. he is taking those very general poll numbers too seriously and it’s too early for that plus they were likely impacted by recent candidacy declarations. and I thought edwards’ comments quoted in that piece were on the money—yes, let’s by all means talk about urban and rural poverty (i’m from appalachia and though my family was lower middle class, i certainly saw enough of it growing up)—but let’s *not* turn it into a crusade about “freedom from poverty”—Edwards is 100% correct in emphasizing investment in education, taking responsibility and taking action, the right to work. That’s how he’ll win those voters, because even those in poverty have their pride and they are by & large looking for the opportunity to make a better life and a decent job for decent pay, they are not looking for a politician to swoop in and free them.
I’m thinking my interjection of “far” has been distracting here—farther left than he normally has been (ie, gabbneb ref’ing him playing left) was what I meant. altho yes I guess that could mean he’s come closer to someone like Feingold, I don’t really know.
i thought kucinich was the far-left guy? feingold is a contrarian
Dean made the relatively rare transition from perceived marginal candidate to major candidate and media phenomenon, a position in which Obama already finds himself. Dean wasn’t eliminated (solely) because he’d made enemies in the party, but because even at the height of his appeal his support was limited to a sizable but insufficiently large minority without serious prospects of growing during the primary. And to the extent you believe that he was ‘taken out’, the people purportedly responsible for same are part of the coalition lining up behind Obama now.
well, speak of the devil.. edwards just sent a message to his mailing list “Time to End the War”
“even at the height of his appeal his support was limited to a sizable but insufficiently large minority without serious prospects of growing during the primary.”
do you see Obama having this same problem? this is an honest question, I’m not sure myself.
“And to the extent you believe that he was ‘taken out’, the people purportedly responsible for same are part of the coalition lining up behind Obama now.”
Well right, which is one of the reasons why I don’t think he faces the same intra-party threats as Dean.
(perhaps I should make it clear that while at this early stage I’d predict Obama as winning, that doesn’t mean he’s got my wholehearted support)
do you see Obama having this same problem?
absolutely not
Obama recently pulled a 17,000-person crowd outside a major metro in the freezing cold (admittedly in his backyard). Did Dean ever pull a crowd that size in a big city in good weather?
personally I don’t have a good handle on who Obama specifically appeals to beyond my heavy-duty organized labor in-laws in Chicago.
his appeal is general, perhaps, rather than specific? which would seem to be a good thing?
yeah that’s how I see it. I’m sure he’d appeal to my wife if she wasn’t obsessed with voting exclusively for women.
I’d caution us against using “far left” on here, lest we fall for the same bullshit line that rightwingers use when attacking politicians voicing majority-held positions.
good lord, am i going crazy? i was actually liking this column by peggy noonan of all people
i’m stunned. but obama does come off as an egomaniac a lot of the time