School leavers should know how to cook a meal, handle domestic finances, take part in a debate, enjoy the theatre and use the internet.

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Also I doubt anyone's trying to teach kids about high culture by taking them to the Springer thing.

Anyway, we really don't need to argue about exactly how popular and/or archaic opera is: my fairly minor point was that the formats we point schoolkids to in order to teach them about high art are ones that have significantly fallen off as the dominant or most current forms of the present. The top-level popular conception of high art consists mostly of stuff that's centuries old, to the point where for the average person, the concept of "artistically sophisticated" is more or less not distinguished from the concept of "very old and European and with fancy dresses."

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:01 (seventeen years ago) link

so the number of US adults who attend at least one opera performance a year is roughly equal to the number of US adults who buy a given Nickelback CD? This disproves my point how, exactly?

the number of US adults who attended at least one opera performance in 2002 exceeded the number who attended at least one nickelback performance in 2006 many times over, and was twice the number of adults+kids who bought 2006's biggest selling album. the number of adults who experienced opera in some form during that year exceeded the number of adults+kids who have ever purchased an album by willie nelson, bob dylan, def leppard or the backstreet boys.

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion. Not sure how that contradicts the pretty straightforward claim that opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music, or that the bulk of what those attendees were seeing was written hundreds of years ago?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

centuries old

more than half the operas in the standard repertoire are less than 150 years old, and about 30% are from the 20th century

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion.

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(and some of the biggest pop phenomenons of all time)

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music

well no, the whole point of high culture is that it isn't pop

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay, whatever, Gabbneb, clearly opera -- with a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League! -- is the dominant form of American music-making in the 21st century, dominating the radio airwaves, inevitably taking the Grammy for Best New Performer, inextricably entangled with the social development of teenagers, its catchphrases acting as a kind of lingua franca (oops, Italia!) through the US and the world, and scaling heights of cultural influence unthinkable in the age of Verdi. My bad.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:18 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. -- sarcasm aside, the difference between "high culture" and "popular culture" needn't simply be a matter of format, with something like opera roped off into "high" and something like pop music roped off elsewhere. (I'd actually suggest that the socioeconomic dynamics that made that possible have crumbled too much for it to still be the case.) Film is probably a good example of how a given medium can span all uses. (And film is a medium that -- for both high and low applications -- I'd describe as not being archaic, as a format.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:24 (seventeen years ago) link

a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League!

more than triple, actually, but CFL attendance was more than three times that of Canadian opera attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

'experience', actually, not attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:32 (seventeen years ago) link

i've never seen an opera nor has anyone I know (that I know of)

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Saturday, 2 December 2006 04:44 (seventeen years ago) link

you have the opportunity to do so in Austin (which is premiering a Philip Glass opera this year), San Antonio, El Paso, McAllen, Houston (which has one of the best companies in America), Galveston, Fort Worth, Dallas, Garland, Amarillo or Abilene

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:31 (seventeen years ago) link

The problem with theatre these days is that it isn't serious or elitist enough. If I had a dollar for every christ-awful "modern" re-telling of Shakespeare I've ever seen, I'd have enough money to see a psychologist enough times to get me over all that.

YES, WE KNOW SHAKESPEARE MADE A FEW KNOB JOKES. GET OVER IT.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:34 (seventeen years ago) link

there's all sorts of 'serious' and 'elitist' theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:39 (seventeen years ago) link

or you can see america's best opera company this year at your local movie theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes but it doesn't cost 5 bux!

I WANT CHEAP SERIOUS ELITIST THEATRE!!

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:44 (seventeen years ago) link

let's bring ILX to the stage!

er, nothing else to add, really. other than "nabisco OTM", but i feel such truisms should be banned from the sandbox and indeed from nuILX :)

grimly fiendish (simon), Saturday, 2 December 2006 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

i am able to do all of these things, so i left school.
now just gimme a desk job with benefits you fucks.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

how about change a flat? do CPR? write a résumé?

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:15 (seventeen years ago) link

i can change a flat and write a resume.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't do either but I can do CPR. :(

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link


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