School leavers should know how to cook a meal, handle domestic finances, take part in a debate, enjoy the theatre and use the internet.

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (114 of them)
xpost -- ha, sorry, this tangles with what you just wrote

I mean, that's not a knock on any of those things -- it's just a flat fact that the art forms average people most strongly associate with Proper High Culture tend to be old and not incredibly vibrant or relevant in modern terms. The ballets and operas people think of as cultured and sophisticated are centuries old; it shouldn't be controversial to point out that these formats peaked a very long time ago, and aren't exactly major forms of expression in the modern-day US or UK. Poetry does a little better, relevance-wise, but much like ballet and opera, it's largely supported by small academic circles and arts philanthropy and grants, not any kind of significant public audience -- and once again, the names that would come up on a Family Feud board for "name a high-culture poet" were all buried hundreds of years ago. Classical music: the same.* (And I think we all know that when laymen talk about the need to appreciate these things, they are not usually talking about exposing children to cutting-edge dance choreography or 21st century microtonal compositions.) I'm glad there are people who keep these forms alive, and people who keep them pushing forward in new directions, and I'm happy to see the many ways in which they still have profound effects on a lot of people -- all sorts of people -- but it'd be insane to claim they're particularly vibrant or prevalent or popular media for artistic expression in the 21st century (even among the educated upper classes who made them seem important centuries ago).

(* Classical music is actually a bit more like soccer in the U.S. -- the kind of thing a lot of people are involved in when they're young and yet turn out not to be massive consumers of across the rest of their lives. But obviously even the kind of puffed-up semiclassical and opera music that's moderately popular is like deliberately archaic, all plush curtains and violin soloists in corsets and "look, this is cultured old-Europe stuff" -- on some level it's playing to the very same "eat your vegetables" vibe that's behind telling kids this stuff is where sophisticated High Culture lives.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I guess part of my point is that instead of teaching children how to actually engage with culture and aesthetics, we have a habit of pointing them at slightly dusty, archaic spectacles and saying "this is what high culture is" -- frilly tutus, tuxedoed tenors singing in Italian, poetry old enough that they spend most of their time just chopping through outdated language. And that's a really worthwhile exercise, in part, because it helps kids learn to think across time and history, and forces them to pay attention to changes in context, and all that. But as far as getting them to engage with culture ... I mean, you're putting them in front of the culture that's the most glass-clased and velvet-roped and embalmed and distant, and so it's not surprising that a lot of them conclude that they don't get it and it's just some kind of eat-your-vegetables stuff. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the approach where the teacher brings in a Biggie CD as part of the poetry section, either, but there's a lot of fairly normal middle ground, where you can teach engaging-with-high-culture using forms that are more ... engagement-friendly. (Whether they're incredibly old, like the fart jokes in Don Quixote, or recent, like plenty of plainspoken 60s poetry.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:02 (seventeen years ago) link

In 2002, 6.6 million adults (3.2% of the adult population) attended at least one opera performance. 37.6 million adults experienced opera on TV, radio, video, audio recordings, or via the Internet. The U.S. opera audience grew by 35% between 1982 and 1992. This trend continued through 2002, when the opera audience grew by an additional 8.2%. In 2002, 25.2% of the U.S. opera audience was under the age of 35 years old. (Source: National Endowment for the Arts)

From 1990 to 2004, over 172 new operatic works were produced by professional opera companies in North America. (Source: OPERA America)

and there's at least one opera company of some sort in every city in America with a metro population > 1 million (excepting Las Vegas, Buffalo, and OKC, but there are opera companies in Reno, Erie, and Tulsa, respectively).

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:34 (seventeen years ago) link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4159217.stm

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Umm -- so the number of US adults who attend at least one opera performance a year is roughly equal to the number of US adults who buy a given Nickelback CD? This disproves my point how, exactly?

Opera and (semi-)classical are doing damned well right now, but -- like I said -- basically in a tarted-up archivist's sense, pretty much just finding as many large-breasted blonde soloists as possible and soaring on guys like Boccelli, who just about no one with any knowledge of the art form thinks is particularly talented in the least. It's doing decently well as a kind of lifestyle music right now, which, yes, probably makes it more alive than usual. (Although maybe not -- surely this stuff is on a continuum with people buying millions of Mantovani records in the 50s and 60s, or endless film soundtracks during the 80s.) But for the most part I don't see people engaging with it in any kind of committed or analytical way, which is the whole teaching opportunity we're talking about -- it seems to me that the bulk of sales of this kind of stuff are going to people who were not previously interested in classical music, and then hit a certain age and found the top-40 stations were all hip-hop these days, and were suddenly taken with either throwing on some Norah Jones or dabbling in showy, easily digestable, stagily old-Europe classical.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Also I doubt anyone's trying to teach kids about high culture by taking them to the Springer thing.

Anyway, we really don't need to argue about exactly how popular and/or archaic opera is: my fairly minor point was that the formats we point schoolkids to in order to teach them about high art are ones that have significantly fallen off as the dominant or most current forms of the present. The top-level popular conception of high art consists mostly of stuff that's centuries old, to the point where for the average person, the concept of "artistically sophisticated" is more or less not distinguished from the concept of "very old and European and with fancy dresses."

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:01 (seventeen years ago) link

so the number of US adults who attend at least one opera performance a year is roughly equal to the number of US adults who buy a given Nickelback CD? This disproves my point how, exactly?

the number of US adults who attended at least one opera performance in 2002 exceeded the number who attended at least one nickelback performance in 2006 many times over, and was twice the number of adults+kids who bought 2006's biggest selling album. the number of adults who experienced opera in some form during that year exceeded the number of adults+kids who have ever purchased an album by willie nelson, bob dylan, def leppard or the backstreet boys.

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion. Not sure how that contradicts the pretty straightforward claim that opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music, or that the bulk of what those attendees were seeing was written hundreds of years ago?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

centuries old

more than half the operas in the standard repertoire are less than 150 years old, and about 30% are from the 20th century

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion.

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(and some of the biggest pop phenomenons of all time)

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music

well no, the whole point of high culture is that it isn't pop

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay, whatever, Gabbneb, clearly opera -- with a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League! -- is the dominant form of American music-making in the 21st century, dominating the radio airwaves, inevitably taking the Grammy for Best New Performer, inextricably entangled with the social development of teenagers, its catchphrases acting as a kind of lingua franca (oops, Italia!) through the US and the world, and scaling heights of cultural influence unthinkable in the age of Verdi. My bad.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:18 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. -- sarcasm aside, the difference between "high culture" and "popular culture" needn't simply be a matter of format, with something like opera roped off into "high" and something like pop music roped off elsewhere. (I'd actually suggest that the socioeconomic dynamics that made that possible have crumbled too much for it to still be the case.) Film is probably a good example of how a given medium can span all uses. (And film is a medium that -- for both high and low applications -- I'd describe as not being archaic, as a format.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:24 (seventeen years ago) link

a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League!

more than triple, actually, but CFL attendance was more than three times that of Canadian opera attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

'experience', actually, not attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:32 (seventeen years ago) link

i've never seen an opera nor has anyone I know (that I know of)

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Saturday, 2 December 2006 04:44 (seventeen years ago) link

you have the opportunity to do so in Austin (which is premiering a Philip Glass opera this year), San Antonio, El Paso, McAllen, Houston (which has one of the best companies in America), Galveston, Fort Worth, Dallas, Garland, Amarillo or Abilene

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:31 (seventeen years ago) link

The problem with theatre these days is that it isn't serious or elitist enough. If I had a dollar for every christ-awful "modern" re-telling of Shakespeare I've ever seen, I'd have enough money to see a psychologist enough times to get me over all that.

YES, WE KNOW SHAKESPEARE MADE A FEW KNOB JOKES. GET OVER IT.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:34 (seventeen years ago) link

there's all sorts of 'serious' and 'elitist' theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:39 (seventeen years ago) link

or you can see america's best opera company this year at your local movie theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes but it doesn't cost 5 bux!

I WANT CHEAP SERIOUS ELITIST THEATRE!!

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:44 (seventeen years ago) link

let's bring ILX to the stage!

er, nothing else to add, really. other than "nabisco OTM", but i feel such truisms should be banned from the sandbox and indeed from nuILX :)

grimly fiendish (simon), Saturday, 2 December 2006 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

i am able to do all of these things, so i left school.
now just gimme a desk job with benefits you fucks.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

how about change a flat? do CPR? write a résumé?

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:15 (seventeen years ago) link

i can change a flat and write a resume.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't do either but I can do CPR. :(

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.