Jane Dark Sugarhigh blog on Beyonce's "Irreplaceable" restoring "melodic range to pop"

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Anyway if she's talking about/selling this as an 'empowerment anthem', does she want to undermine that by talking about how its a lie underneath?

Subtractive Synthesis (Subtractive Synthesis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Pride for B
Empowerment for....women (who's she selling the 'idea' to). B doesn't need empowerment (in her mind), but pride is all

?

Subtractive Synthesis (Subtractive Synthesis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:26 (seventeen years ago) link

'maybe she has to believe in its literal truth to sing it as well as she does...'

or maybe she is STILL lying to herself, and still in denial!

or: sometimes, even after you've admitted to yourself that you're lying to yourself, and have come to terms with that...you're still not going to give the other party the pleasure of seeing it, so you carry on with your public face at all times.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Anyway if she's talking about/selling this as an 'empowerment anthem', does she want to undermine that by talking about how its a lie underneath?

precisely! especially as it's the kind of song where you hope by repeating its words to yourself enough times, you will eventually believe them. any public concession to their untruth would SHATTER YR FRAGILE EMOTIONAL WORLD, etc.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:28 (seventeen years ago) link

pride more than empowerment, that's a good way of putting it. esp with the double-edgedness of pride.

it's virtually her default persona
but you can't mesh it with the buckwild crazy needy mad-eyes persona (cf deja vu etc), or the service-your-man one (cf cater 2 u, naughty girl, etc).


lex you sound like you're implying it's based in real life, watch it. :(

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:37 (seventeen years ago) link

and where is the rule that her persona in interviews and her persona in songs have to be the same?

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:37 (seventeen years ago) link

it is possible to take the 'new criticism' thing too far.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:42 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean basically what we are all saying was neatly summed up by Dan:

every time Beyonce opens her mouth to talk about this song, I think she gets dumber

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:42 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost I don't even know what a new criticism is. ^_^

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:43 (seventeen years ago) link

it was written in character after dreamgirls wasn't it? (which i still haven't seen, must rectify.) i do think that whether based on real life or not, it's not the kind of song which should have the curtain pulled back on it like that.

but you can't mesh it with the buckwild crazy needy mad-eyes persona (cf deja vu etc), or the service-your-man one (cf cater 2 u, naughty girl, etc).

indeed, though for whatever reason submissive/needy solo beyoncé hasn't stuck as a persona in the way that shark-eyed businesswoman DC beyoncé did. i guess until now she's backed it up with some pretty no-nonsense beats.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:43 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean basically what we are all saying was neatly summed up by Dan:

every time Beyonce opens her mouth to talk about this song, I think she gets dumber

no, dan's completely wrong, we have established exactly why it would be a bad idea for beyoncé (or any pop star doing a similar song) to openly talk about how it's a lie! it doesn't matter what she says in interviews, anyway.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:44 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe we just like shark-eyed businesswoman more than submissive&needy, and so pay more attention to it?

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:45 (seventeen years ago) link

ha, indeed

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:50 (seventeen years ago) link

it does matter what she says in interviews: it makes me think she's being dumb, whether intentionally (to sell her 'empowerment' angle on the song) or not. By thinking about it at all we're pulling the curtain back, why would it be any different if Beyonce were more eager to appear smrt in interviews?

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:51 (seventeen years ago) link

the problem with beyonce is, that is exactly how nuanced her stuff gets. you're either parody of old-style dependent woman or fucking nightmare materialist headcase.

xpost

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:52 (seventeen years ago) link

i tend to pay no attention to what any popstar says in interviews though! i mean, when i talked to pusha t he didn't know what a choir was, which is arguably dumber than beyoncé not bothering to go into the complexities of 'irreplaceable's narrative.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 13:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Now that I'm a little embarrassed by my ridiculous claims upthread, I'm closer to what Xgau said in his most recent Consumer Guide: something about how in this song "hook subsumes meaning."

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:08 (seventeen years ago) link

doesn't the fact that someone other than Beyonce wrote the lyrics kinda mean that it's entirely possible that she doesn't totally understand the song herself and it doesn't really matter what she thinks about it?

Al (Alex In Baltimore), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:09 (seventeen years ago) link

surely what she thinks about it matters to her performance of the song?

cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:10 (seventeen years ago) link

well, given that she's a robot, I don't think it matters how she feels, just that she gets the words right.

Al (Alex In Baltimore), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I said back in December that I like Beyoncé best "when her insistent blare is out-flared by the beats, when her personality is subsumed in the sonic atmosphere, when her vocals work as texture (consonants and vowels) rather than content (words, ideas, emotions)."

What she says in interviews is irrelevant.

sw00ds (sw00ds), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:13 (seventeen years ago) link

More Jane Dark fun.

I'd love Dan's take.

Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:14 (seventeen years ago) link

don't fancy sw00ds' idea much. content is nice.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:27 (seventeen years ago) link

not saying it's true of everyone, or even of most. and there's content in sounds--moods, emotions, etc.

sw00ds (sw00ds), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:30 (seventeen years ago) link

i love Dark's Dreamgirls thing. honestly, the way every critic (even those who otherwise disparage the movie) has been describing jennifer hudson's "showstopping" performance has more or less convinced me that i would very likely hate that part.

sw00ds (sw00ds), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:33 (seventeen years ago) link

The Cocker-Jagger comparison is interesting, and I really like this: "That Aretha happens to be transcendently magnificent within that style is a fact about her, not about the style."

sw00ds (sw00ds), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:36 (seventeen years ago) link

sounds to me like a way of getting round the meanings of the words -- entirely understandable, this being beyonce, but still.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:38 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know if it's "getting round the meanings" or just not relying on a coherent narrative to supply the meaning. I love words, and I have a long list of favourite lyricists, but I mostly hear the words the same way I hear guitar parts and drum beats--as riffs. Good lyrics for me are usually just phrases I turn over in my head a number of times, though sure, some do add up to a narrative I can kind of follow.

sw00ds (sw00ds), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 14:51 (seventeen years ago) link

"That Aretha happens to be transcendently magnificent within that style is a fact about her, not about the style."

This remark should be posted atop every rock critic's computer. It's probably the most compelling statement regarding a critic's obligation to delineate why an artist is or isn't worth his/her time.

Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link

'transcendently magnificent' is pretty gross.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 15:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Dream Girls was terrible, that blog entry was OTM.

steve schneeberg (steve go1dberg), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

My take on that Jane Dark post:

What complete and utter horseshit. Has this idiot NEVER heard other people's renditions of "And I Am Telling You" (including the one they all rip off, Jennifer Holliday's) and seen the glaring interpretive contrast between what every random screamer does (YELL YELL YELL YELL YELL MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE) and what Jennifer Hudson does (tender start, build in emotion, out of control bridge leading to a massively impressive phrase that shows breath control that Beyonce has never once exhibited in any of her singing)? This is completely setting aside differences in timbre; Jennifer Hudson has a darker, richer, rounder sound than Beyonce does. Also, Jennifer doesn't belt "Love You I Do" and she doesn't belt the verses of "Move"; that is saved for the coda. That nonsense was written by someone who is too busy jizzing over Beyonce's weave to give anyone else a fair shake (Anika Noni Rose could easily have outsung both of them had her big number not been cut from the movie, BTW, so this is not just the same argument from the "RAH RAH JENNIFER" perspective).

no, dan's completely wrong, we have established exactly why it would be a bad idea for beyoncé (or any pop star doing a similar song) to openly talk about how it's a lie!

Petulantly stamping your foot and shouting "I DECREE THIS, THEREFORE IT IS TRUE" is not a universally-accepted way of establishing a point, Lex.

Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

neither is shouting "i can't hear you from way up here on my high horse" as you might have realised had you read my many other posts on this subject in this thread

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Lex, you do realize that there are different opinions from yours, I hope.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Your "many other posts" have the credibility of a teenage girl lip-synching to "Me + U" in a mirror. You've never once written anything that gives me the impression you know the slightest thing about music; fashion, image and public relations are way more your bag.

Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Having never read a word in print about this song I thought it was screamingly obvious that the song is about someone trying to convince themself about something that isn't true. I'm not sure Beyonce herself actually understands this, but hey.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:16 (seventeen years ago) link

You've never once written anything that gives me the impression you know the slightest thing about music; fashion, image and public relations are way more your bag.

you must not know 'bout me

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

fwiw i would trust a lip-syncing teenage girl far more when it comes to talking about this song than pompous perry

Lex, you do realize that there are different opinions from yours, I hope.

different opinions != ad hominem attacks. ilx is a fucking hive of incivility these days.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

A wretched hive of scum and villainy!

steve schneeberg (steve go1dberg), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:34 (seventeen years ago) link

lol "these days"

Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link

ho rap is a hive of incivility these days.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

PS: The fact that you're a published and celebrated music writer says more about the state of music journalism than it does about your musical knowledge.

Pompous Perry (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 16:52 (seventeen years ago) link

why do you even hang around ilx if its working knowledge of music theory is so inferior to yours? if that's the kind of thing you want to discuss you'll only raise your blood pressure. which would explain a lot. unless of course you like being able to shout down all argument with your superior technical knowledge of one aspect of the game. i guess this is why you don't post on the tennis threads any more (ps you forgot tennis in that list of things i know about).

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 17:06 (seventeen years ago) link

GENTLEMEN YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN HERE, THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!

ihttp://datacore.sciflicks.com/dr_strangelove/images/dr_strangelove_large_06.jpg

Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 17:22 (seventeen years ago) link

PS: The fact that you're a published and celebrated music writer says more about the state of music journalism than it does about your musical knowledge.

"celebrated"

Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 17:28 (seventeen years ago) link

"Irreplaceable is a pop-RnB song written by American singer-songwriter Beyonce, Amund Bjorklund, Espen Lind, Mikkel S. Eriksen, Tor Erik Hermansen and Ne-Yo"

Not to interrupt or anything, but does anyone know which of the credited writers penned the lyrics, or was it a team effort of some sort? (and you can explain whether you think it matters)

curmudgeon (DC Steve), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 18:17 (seventeen years ago) link

there was a big to-do on a lot of R&B blogs and gossip sites a few weeks ago about Beyonce always introducing the song by talking about how she wrote it for all the women out there etc etc and Ne-Yo said in interviews that he wrote all the words and her contribution to the songwriting was entirely melody/arrangement stuff.

Al (Alex In Baltimore), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 18:24 (seventeen years ago) link

Lex, every time you talk about music, you do so from the context of image. As far as I know, you don't talk about it from the context of tennis, which is why I didn't mention it. If you DO actually use your tennis knowledge when you talk about music, I apologize.

I would say "feel free to continue reading whatever motives you want into what threads I decide to follow" but I have the sneaking suspicion that you're going to do that anyway.

Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 19:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Lex, every time you talk about music, you do so from the context of image.

this is complete bollocks though and either you know it, or you have read about four things i've written ever and thus have no licence to be talking shit about how i write.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 19:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Put up or shut up.

Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 13 February 2007 19:57 (seventeen years ago) link


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