Sandbox Dumbasses

He played 157 games in CF in his entire career according to BP. I suspect Ichiro will eclipse that total next year I suspect. Gwynn's rate statistics and and FRAR are better than average for the beginning of his career, but they begin to tail noticeably after '87. Still you would have expected more from a corner outfielder with zero power.

he deserves to be in the hall of fame

Probably, but he's certainly not a slam dunk the way some people make him out to be (except that he got 3,000 hits which is pretty much a slam dunk, I guess.)

If Ichiro finishes his career with roughly the same OBP as Gwynn and somewhere in the area of 2500 hits, I think he deserves the HOF as much as Gwynn. He's an incredible player despite his complete lack of power and walks.

Oh yeah def. Especially since Ichiro missed a lot of his prime playing top notch ball in Japan. But Ichiro also does more things better than Gwynn does and is totally comparable BA/OBP wise. Gwynn was basically as one-dimensional a ballplayer as McGwire or Dunn (although since technically drawing walks is a dimension, neither of those guys really was/is) for a lot of his career, the only difference is that his one dimension was making contact.

so many ways to argue your gwynn misunderestimation, how about this?
Tony Gwynn > Lou Brock (corner outfielder with one admittedly big advantage over gwynn)
Tony Gwynn > Al Kaline (corner outfielder with decent but not outstanding power)

Lou Brock, definitely (but since when is a better corner outfielder than Lou Brock something to strive for?!??!) Kaline and Gwynn are pretty comparable (OPS+ are just about the same.) Kaline might have been a slightly better fielder, I guess. Not sure what you claim I am misunderestimating actually.

well, it's a little puzzling that you don't think he's a slamdunk first ballot h-o-f'er, obv. guy had "holes" in his game, but his accomplishments are well within the range of first ballot dudes.
no offense tho :/

Tony Gwynn was a very very good ballplayer who had a number of really great years (including one historical one that was cut tragically short by the strike.) Was he one of the 20 best right fielders of all time? Probably not. Does he still deserve to be in the HOF? Yes. He was very good for a very long time and he was certainly better than Lou Brock!

By slam dunk I mean those guys who everyone goes "OH YEAH that fucker was the best or one of the best players at his position when he played and for quite a while" and no one really disagrees. Guys like Mays or Reggie or Bonds (pre-roids) or Griffey (pre-breaking in half) and Pujols. I mean maybe people thought that about Gwynn, but mostly I just remember thinking "that guy can sure hit" and leaving it at that.

reggie had as many, if not more holes than gwynn, but we're getting into apples & oranges

"Holes". Baseball is responsible for its own damages.

I don't know where I came up with that list of players actually. I was just picking 'em at random.

When it comes to "TS: Tony Gwynn -- best pure batsman since Ted Williams or Ford-driving glorified singles hitter?", let's just state the obvious and admitt that he was a mixture of both.

You have to be careful with these singles vs walks arguments ... a guy with 100 singles and 50 walks is more valuable than a guy with 75 singles and 75 walks. Runners can't advance extra bases or score from second on a walk, plus, singles force the defense to actually do something.

A .500 SLG was considered to be a benchmark number for a slugger ... Gwynn's lifetime SLG was .459, which is damn good for a "singles" hitter. Some of his approximate contemporaries: Mattingly .471, Rice .502 (both of whom are borderline HOFers and respected sluggers in their day), Boggs .443 (renowned doubles hitter who played in the most extreme doubles park in baseball for most of his prime). Gwynn's lifetime SLG numbers were boosted a bit by playing in the hitting-happy mid-late '90's, but not to an extreme degree.

Gwynn was a very good basestealer early in his career.

"You have to be careful with these singles vs walks arguments ... a guy with 100 singles and 50 walks is more valuable than a guy with 75 singles and 75 walks."

Usually this is true, but it doesn't take into account factors like # of pitches seen per plate appearance which obv has value as well. But assuming everything else was equal yes 100/50 > 75/75.

"Gwynn was a very good basestealer early in his career."

He had a lot of years where he didn't break even early in his career too.

aspm