Girls thread cont.

ps I missed you all and in the few days the sandbox was down I managed to forget to come back here and I honestly felt so miserable, I think I need ILX to survive.

oh no Lechhhh I totally dropped the ball on the photoshopping! :( am I too late? I got really sick last week (twice in two months!) and then forgot that and ILX in general. djhflskdjfhasdkjfh

Hee hee - I like the way he said "against".

I feel bad about not replaying properly to FT but it was largely because the weekend was really busy for me and because I honestly don't have much to say. I really appreciated that post K and you were otm throughout imo even in #3. Of course we all have outlets and I'd be lying if I said i hadn't engaged in somet of the things you mentioned. I'm sure we all have and it did suck that yours was broadcast publicly when that was not the original intention.

I am tired and bored and want it to be Friday already. So already checked out mentally it's not even funny.

oooh he's dashing, lexy!!

I'm just so happen to be home. Ugh. So much stress in the outside world - I think I lost some friends :P Whatever. 'Long as I have you ladies! And yes - a dashing pale skinny man. :) And two dresses from Modcloth today! What more could I need?

think I feel the same way as E here w/r/t the generalization of men that I sometimes see in this thread - that they ALL want X, Y, Z. I've dated some assholes who did want/behave in the manner of the negative things, but I've also dated a few men who were wholly respectful, intelligent, thoughtful, etc. Perhaps it's in the way I was raised and the fact that my looks were NOT currency in any way for many years but I've never been held down by being female in any way - so I agree that the generalizations should bear in mind that perhaps we meet different types of people, who act in different ways.

I am not sure where anybody has ever said that every man acts in the ways that some of us have encountered some men acting. If I say that there are men I work with who disregard my professional opinions because I'm a woman (or some intersection of female, old, fat, or whatever), I am not saying that no men listen to me.

Maybe we should agree to a set of assumptions if we want to continue to discuss "heavier" topics like sexism: 1) our individual experiences are valid; 2) one person's individual experience doesn't invalidate another person's different individual experience (so if I've been catcalled or street harassed, and you haven't, that doesn't mean that either one of us is wrong); and 3) naming a negative experience we've had with men doesn't mean that we think all men are misogynists.

Like, the only type of generalization you're talking about that I've seen is the use of "mansplaining" and there seemed to be consensus that it did unfairly generalize a negative behavior to all men (and that it failed to capture the many nuances of privileged-based condescension). The difference of opinion was over whether that unfair generalization should be fatal to the term.

i agree with all that, and it's very concisely put. thanks, Jenny! i keep trying to type a post in response to the point about not feeling "held down as a woman," too, but it gets away from me. i am glad you don't feel that way! sexism is real, though (i know you weren't saying otherwise, lexy), and not necessarily reducible to a bad encounter with an individual man, although that certainly qualifies some of the time.

i like Jenny's list of assumptions, but alternatively we could just have a separate thread for, i don't know, sexism discussion that's likely to alienate, or something? maybe that's a terrible idea.

hey Jenny, I'm not going to search out individual examples nor do I have any one person's posts in mind when I say what I said. It's just a general feeling that I've had during a few of the shall we say heavier conversations on here. I completely agree that individual experiences are valid, but I have felt in the past that those experiences have been laid out in such a way that the poster insinuated this is how All Men Feel and I wanted to assure E that she was not alone in feeling that those kinds of generalizations were unfair.

'here' = not necessarily this thread (I do see I specifically said this thread in my original post, a careless posting-at-work mistake) but in the female centric discussions on this board.

I am not sure where anybody has ever said that every man acts in the ways that some of us have encountered some men acting.

Yeah, I don't think that anyone has actually ever said it either but I think that the general tone of some conversations (and understandably so imo) is easily misinterpreted if that makes any sense. I was really just talking about the specific term in question there but thank you for the support Lex :)

You assumptions are good ones, J I think ones we've all failed to take into account at one point or another itt.

You assumptions are good ones, J I think ones we've all failed to take into account at one point or another itt.

Should have read: Your assumptions are good ones, J and also ones we've all probably failed to take into consideration at one point or another itt.

Weird just because these threads are the one place I feel I read all this stuff and it *doesn't* devolve into the feeling of 'this is what MEN do!!', and I've always liked that. I've taken it as given that we're not generalising.

I have felt in the past that those experiences have been laid out in such a way that the poster insinuated this is how All Men Feel

There is no one way that anybody of any description does or feels anything, obviously. But there are social roles and pressures that everyone is subject to at some point. Not all men do or think anything in particular; HOWEVER, all men are going to be pressured (negative/punishment) or encouraged (positive/reward) to think or act in certain ways that are gendered at different points in their lives. (Women will be too, just the aims of the pressure are different.)

People with remarkable upbringings and experiences will be at the far ends of the spectrum in feeling or not feeling pressure to conform to gendered expectations--some will have it forced on them, and some will escape it almost completely in their formative years so they're less likely to perceive it as a giant monolithic THING later (like, you can shrug things off more easily when you're a whole person and have real experiences to build you up). But it's still provably THERE at some level for almost everyone.

Saying that it would be ideal if all men acknowledged the social pressures and could help fight them or be held accountable if they reinforce the shitty status quo is not the same as saying all men are at the same level of conforming to those influences.

Hi, everybody! I'm in Michigan and not really online but happened to think, "I wonder how the girls' thread is doing this week?" about an hour ago. :)

http://togetherforjacksoncountykids.tumblr.com/post/14314184651/one-teachers-approach-to-preventing-gender-bullying-in

That teacher is awesome.

/Saying that it would be ideal if all men acknowledged the social pressures and could help fight them or be held accountable if they reinforce the shitty status quo is not the same as saying all men are at the same level of conforming to those influences./

Yes!!

(clarifying, yes i agree totally w/this statement, not "yes it is")

Heard at work this month:

"Those kids are lucky to have a mom who has a figure like that."

What does this even mean???

Same guy just recently made comments to the assistant manager implying she was fat and thinks she took what he said the wrong way. Uh.

This is the same guy who has minimal boundaries when it comes to touching people.

What was the "right way"? Constructive criticism?

"gabbsplaining"

when/why did the ruffalo thread become anything other than a repository for fantasy shtup objects?

can't we all just get along post stills from zodiac?

so otm

i encourage you to do that, jbr!

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2007_Zodiac/2007_zodiac_020.jpg

Sorry, that is probably my fault. :-(

Back at home now and on a proper computer again.

I just really really cannot take when straight dudes come in and start 'splainin like that... that whole thing about "why do women fancy this dude? he is so ~unthreatening~ (i.e. womens desire for him is inauthentic) - women should fancy the kind of dudes that *I* fantasise about *being*" (because women shouldn't fancy who they fancy, they should fancy ... *me*) and then getting so ... like defensive isn't even the word. When horseshoe and I both pointed out that, like, this is a kinda problematic usage bcuz it is denying the authentic desires and experiences of young women, he decided to try and prove how *nonproblematic* his usage was.. by denying the experiences of the women he is talking to! ("I'm not being sexist! that word doesn't mean what you think it does, it means what *I* say it does! Because women's interpretations of their own experiences are wrong, and I'm right! About everything! Because I, as a man, have access to the truuuuuuuth, did I mention I'm not sexist, you uppity bitches?") and then compounding it by being all "everyone is just agreeing with horseshoe and FT because they are WOMEn" - because, like, it's IMPOSSIBLE for ppl to be agreeing with women because they're actually *right*? About something they're actually *expert* in (men that str8 women find attractive) and said due, as a straight man, is just not? NO.

And THEN. After all this... he just declares, as only straight white men *can* - that we are all in a post gender world, and why can't we just get along and act like dudes' interpretations are the right ones? because: I HAVE UNILATERALLY DECLARED MYSELF POST-GENDER.

Just ARGH. Why?

You can argue until you're blue in the face about whether language is or isn't gendered. (WRT English, that's up for debate. english is not an inherently gendered language like, say, Spanish or Cornish - the only gender in English is that which people *put* into it. Which is a whole nother kettle of fish, see also that stupid debate about "actress" and why that word is 500 years of oppression wrapped up in one little word.) But the thing is that EXPERIENCES. ARE. GENDERED. It's impossible not to experience things without that filter - and ONLY MEN (the default gender, after all) believe that IT EVEN IS POSSIBLE. And the ability to even hold that belief is a part of male privilege.

I'm sorry I said anything. I'm sorry I ruined the thread - actually, fuck that, I didn't ruin the thread, I was enjoying the pictures because I was bored on a train. Who is that dude anyways? Is he just some vintage ILX troll that I'm not recognising because I'm always the last person to know who anyone under a fake name is?

Anyway I'm gonna read some cheesecake and try to pretend none of this happened.

wait i haven't read your post yet but it was definitely ck dexter holland's fault. okay, now i will read your post.

Did I just get totally got by some ante-dilluvian troll? Sigh. I don't even know who he is.

you didn't ruin the thread! you were otm. it is hard for me to take a person seriously when they claim calling a dude women find attractive "nonthreatening" is not about gender on some level. i guess that dude might be gabbneb? it's not clear to me whether he's said so or not.

he is so ~unthreatening~ (i.e. womens desire for him is inauthentic)
women should fancy the kind of dudes that *I* fantasise about *being*" (because women shouldn't fancy who they fancy, they should fancy ... *me*)

Not at all what I was saying. Don't put words in my mouth.

I guess I feel more stupid, than anything else, for rising to the bait. Oh well.

YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE.

YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE.

No. You talk about me, I respond.

Please don't do this here, CK Gabbnebbb whatever.

you want to respond, plz feel free to respond to FT in the orig thread. not here.

xp

Plz feel free to talk about me on the other thread, not here.

Please don't do this here, CK Gabbnebbb whatever.

^^^^^^^

I am so sorry, girls. I had no idea that this would happen. :-(

It's okay!

missing the real ilx girls thread and roxy's banning of boys who post in this thread.

^^^

also it would be very lol for roxy to ban ben b. bag

Yeah I kinda didn't realise we didn't have that here. It started to feel like an actual ~safe space~

But on a positive note, it does make me realise how good at boundary-respectin' most ILX dudes are, in terms of this kind of invasion being the exception, not the rule. That is me, saying something totally A-OK nice about ILX Dudes! It must be the season of goodwill or something. ;-)

I know one ILX dude who respects boundaries by not posting here even though it kills him. (Hi!!! You rock, ILX dude! xoxo)

It's cool. :)

As hard as it is for me, sometimes, seriously, the best thing is simply not to give it the attention. It has been one of the most freeing things of the past year or maybe a bit more, learning that I don't actually *owe* anyone my time, or my attention. I don't *owe* anyone a response. That it doesn't make a dude ~right~ if I just don't respond, but it does make me feel much less of the crazy-making of beating my head against that wall. I know this is one of those lessons that you all probably learned back in grade school.

"YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. GET OFF THIS THREAD, ASS HOLE."

Sticking to the co-ed threads because at 40 it just feels weird to see such things.

I am sorry you feel that way. But after the events of this afternoon and that particular man's behaviour, I'm more relieved than ever that there is one place on this board where I don't have to put up with a person like that, or behaviour like his.

not to derail, but went to gyno today (picking up on gyno convo that happened in original ilx). 1st time with a male gyno, and whoa was it ever a different experience. perhaps largely because of this particular dr's personality, but it's made me decide to just go with female gynocologists from now on.

I just had my first female gyno not long ago, think I need to make her my regular...nowhere near as awkward.