Girls thread cont.

I'm surprised you still work there, FT, given how you've felt about it since the beginning and how much it must be bringing you down. Things are hard enough without that shit on your back? I guess lack of income is a whole different shit, though.

Like, they just literally can NOT see the connection between "public adulation of unattainable photoshopped perfection" and "this is why my perfectly lovely normal looking wife/gf feels like shit about herself"

There is no doubt that this is an issue and it's depressing and awful. It's why I tried posting more "normal" looking people in WS after a while and part of the reason why I posted there less and less. I'm not saying that there aren't problems with the very idea of the WS thread because there obviously are. I just feel like most of the people posting there do actually understand that connection and I think that the range of people posted itt is actually wider than has been suggested here. I sort of wish that reg ILX was up so I could look at the real thread and verify that but the sort of Stuff for Men, Maxim type shit that I find most offensive isn't actually what gets posted most often.

I cannot conscience knowingly making myself unemployed in this economic climate - there are literally *no* jobs out there, I keep looking and seeing only short term contracts because the NHS just isn't hiring and no one else wants medical data analysts - and they simply will not sack me, I don't know how I've survived this many rounds of redundancies because no one else in this industry can speak in maths apparently - I dunno. It makes me crazy.

But it's also brought a whole new level of understanding of the discourse around Beauty Myth type shit to which I used just shrug and say "who cares what stupid women do to their breasts" like now I know the mechanism and the pressure - but I also feel more confident about telling stupid strawfeminists to STFU "the problem is *not* porn or these vague notions of 'sexualisation' - the problem is commercialisation and hard core late capitalism on a level you couldn't even get your heads around, but here are the effing stats!" grrrrr

This report is not writing itself. I need to look at Thom Yorke's belly until I get my happy place back.

Can I just say that I am always really very reluctant to post in this thread when we get on these topics because I feel like you're all r your de at me thinking about how sad it is that the poor dumb pretty girl has been brainwashed or that I don't have a right to take part in these discussions because I may or may not have had similar experiences to you? There, I said it. Of course I have been brainwashed - we all have to some extent and I'm more conscious of that lately than I have been ever before. Still, every post I make about this stuff I sort of picture a handful of you all sitting there clucking at my naivete and stupidity. I realize that probably is more a reflection of my self-doubt than anything else and very well might not be what's happening at all but wanted to put that out there and assure you that it's not the case and that I do think about these things. A lot. I mean, my participation in WS was pretty intentional from the beginning in a sort of "I'm here too boys" sort of way. I found it easier to participate in some way than allow myself to be excluded. Sorry, I'm babbling now.

Well, that reminds me of when I first joined ILX, the Music board I was OK with but all the politics and culture and so much else, it all seemed like if I was to say owt, I'd get tutted at and so on.

Of course, we all no nowt and continue to do so really.

E, there's no way that this is not gonna come out the wrong way, so I'm just gonna say it and hope you aren't too hurt by it.

I spent a *lot* of my life being "one of the boys" - because I kinda had to, having worked in so many male dominated fields. I could either participate, and join in, and prove myself "more of a lad than the lads" in the recording studio, or in the computer lab - or I could kick up a stink and vent my feminist feelings, and not get to be in the club at all. For a long time, that worked, and I don't actually know what the *moment* was, that it stopped working. But it did. Somehow the "one of the boys" forcefield stopped working, and I had to deal with all of this stupid crap that I thought only women who weren't, you know, "putting themselves forward enough" did.

That said, I don't think I was ever unaware that there were women who didn't, or couldn't, make those choices. I will confess that I often get very very irritated and frustrated with you - not because I'm "clucking at your naivete and stupidity" - but because sometimes it *feels* (operative word - this is how it feels to *me*, not what I'm accusing you of doing in terms of intent) like... because you have not directly experienced these issues, you start to actively deny the reality of the experiences *I* (we?) have, and the conclusions that *I* (we?) draw.

That is my number one trigger point of what will turn me from a fairly reasonable person into a raging angry beast. Different people have different experiences. Those experiences will lead them to different conclusions, different interpretations. (And also, the expectations based on those conclusions may themselves shape future events.)

It's one thing to say "I've never experienced that" - that is completely fair. But it sometimes *feels* like you step from "I have never experienced that, and it is literally impossible for me to conceive of anyone feeling that way" - which leads to the implied/infered coda of "...therefore anyone feeling that way is lying, crazy or stupid." Which is denying that other people have their own equally valid reality and that makes me super crazy angry in a way I can't control.

I really hesitate to post this, because I read it, and I'm sure it comes off as a personal attack. But I feel like I'm never going to move on or be able to deal until I explain to you - I am not angry at you about X, that you've just said. I am angry about Y, which is something kinda beyond X.

I'm not saying that you being on the WS thread is "being one of the boys." I don't have a problem with any woman who walks into that envrionment and tries to humanise it or gender equalise it, or just be *present* as a reminder that women are human beings with brains and eyes and libidos, too. I'm fine with all that.

But there's this complicated thing where it feels like you start to impose your reality onto me. And you start to judge my reactions by your experiences, and have no conception of why I (with my different set of experiences and conclusions) might feel and think a different way. And I am really not OK with that.

Anyway, that's really heavy for a Friday afternoon. And I feel a bit like I'm a mean kid who has just squished a butterfly. But this is stuff that's been building up for a couple of years now, and I either have to say this, now, without fearing that every other person on this thread has their finger hovering over the SB button for being ~mean~ to you, and run the risk of upsetting you, or just carry on with this bad blood between us, which is no fun for either of us.

Sorry, many phone calls and shocking work-related announcements today, got delayed in response.

E, I know that's why you've embedded yrself in that thread from the beginning and if you can really stomach that, you have a more resilient approach to the subject than I do. (And possibly you also believe more charitable things about the participants, whereas half the reason I avoid the thread is because it makes me feel really bad about some dude posters that I'm otherwise fond of.)

What you say about inevitable brain-washing is true, and sad, and the other half of the reason I stay off ws is that I want to block that message out of my life as much as possible, because we are all varying levels of susceptible to it. I know you've let us in on a little bit about your own body-image difficulties and that you're working on finding a balanced view. Wish you all luck with this and am v interested in your thoughts as you work toward something more beneficial.

x-post -

Not upset at all - don't feel attacked. Promise.

To be honest, what you said is something I feared you (and other people) felt wrt to this part:

But it sometimes *feels* like you step from "I have never experienced that, and it is literally impossible for me to conceive of anyone feeling that way" - which leads to the implied/infered coda of "...therefore anyone feeling that way is lying, crazy or stupid."

I have tried to acknowledge that and make a point of not denying other people's experiences/feelings and I apologize if I've not been successful in doing so and if that has seemed to be the case.

I have more to say but a) I'd like to think about it more and b) for some reason I agreed to take part in some lunchtime yoga bullshit that I really don't feel like doing but don't think I can get out of.

OK it's taken me 6 months to actually say this, so I don't expect a reply immediately - I just wanted to say I'm glad you don't feel upset or attacked. Genuinely. Bcuz it's rlly hard for me to say this stuff.

I peeked into the WS thread on ILX once or twice and I just can't get into posting pictures of ppl and judging their bodies and their fuckability (even if it's all positive, it is judging). And given that measuring the worth of women (I presume it's mostly women in the thread, TY notwithstanding) on their fuckability first and p much everything else second is a basic tenant of sexism, I don't want to participate in it.

Also what Laurel said about needing to maintain a certain fiction about some ILX dudes that I generally like.

I also hate "smash" as a sex euphemism.

And also I would like this to be a "girls only" thread. Sorry Evan.

I also hate "would smash" as a metaphor but, like, I just wanted a place to post pictures of Thom Yorke's amazing belly without being shouted at as being off topic or ~CREPEY WEIRDO~ - well, that turned out well! :D

hullo fotherington hullo thomas,

There are a few data manager/data analyst jobs for clinical research projects up at jobs.ac.uk. Not saying you should go for them as I have not much idea what they want, what you currently do, etc, and I suspect they probably pay a lot less than the big bad corporate self-image-hounds. But if you are looking for an out, it may be worth a look.

WS thread scares me too. Even the "girls/gays WS too" thread on big-ILX makes me feel a bit like a visiting alien.

I don't wanna do this yoga thing. I'm trying to hide and pretend I'm not here.

Oh, it's not until 1.

Moving whatever discussion about the term "mansplain" to here:

I am 100% guilty of being an over-explainer for a bunch of reasons!!! Big sister, production manager, nuts & bolts, etc. I know I do this. But there's a already a gender imbalance present in all of our perceptions about who gets to "know" things and who is supposed to "learn" things from others, and I am positing that the imbalance makes it not the same when a woman overexplains (although equally annoying to the listener, I'm sure).

Hm maybe not "equally" but "also".

Sorry, I answered this on the wrong thread, Pyth.

The problem is, the "man" in "mansplain" doesn't ~have~ to refer to the male gender, but the inherent assumption of automatic greater knowledge due to unspoken privilege. If you can get all that in a snappy 2-syllable phrase, we're laughing.

^^ Yes. I wish there was something snappy to encompass that.

I meant my post here as a response to ENBB's saying that she's offended by the term, and I assume she doesn't mean because it's an ugly portmanteau, because "offended" is a strong, possibly inexact, word to use in that case.

There really needs to be a word that encapsulates the whole damn thing, because it's not as if there isn't White-splaining or Ameri-splaining or Hetero-splaining or any of those other things, we just don't have snappy words for them, really.

x-post - It just seems to me to imply that it's something that all and only men do which I don't think is actually the case. That's why I was saying that I'd prefer a term like FT was suggesting. One that encapsulates the phenomenon as FT stated above and doesn't seem so damning and exclusive.

the "man" in "mansplain" doesn't ~have~ to refer to the male gender, but the inherent assumption of automatic greater knowledge due to unspoken privilege.

Privilege that men have and women do not, in the hypothetical situation AND the specific conversation in which I used the term. To say that "men do it" does not imply that other kinds of people, in other situations, are not also benefiting from some other kind of privilege.

I don't like it because it's an ugly portmanteau but a word for the phenomena described aptly by FT needs to exist. I tend to use "mansplain" and then "mansplain" the shit out of why I'm using that word even though I hate it.

It's totally ugly and horrible like basic all media-created portmanteaus!! I first noticed it in what I think was the Tiger Beatdown essay about how fans of A Game of Thrones were so butthurt when the TBd writer critiqued the show from a feminist perspective, and how male fans kept trying to mansplain FEMINISM TO HER in the context of the awful, awful female characters in that entire show/series!!

I have to admit, that usage kind of validated it for me.

So, I'm the only one that seems to find it problematic because it makes it sound like something every man does? Really? I'm genuinely curious. I know a lot of guys that I've never heard/seen do this and think I'd pretty WTF at the existence of the word if I were one of them tbh. I know it doesn't actually mean that every single man ever does this but it just sort of makes it sound like it does in a way that I'm not comfortable with. Also, it's a horrible portmanteau, yes.

I don't think it's a media-based portmanteau? I think it came out of the blogosphere. Actually I would love to know who originated it because its slow seepage has been really illuminating - I can remember the reaction the first time I used it on ILX, and it's weird to me that it still gets that kind of reaction in places where people encounter it for the first time, like, a year or so later?

But no, you're not the only person who finds it problematic - but the problem is, there doesn't seem to be a word that has quite its power to accurating describe the phenomenon.

But also, this is like Feminism 101 - when you describe a problematic behaviour that men sometimes do (e.g. mansplaining) - you are NOT automatically associating it with EVERY MAN EVER. It's just saying that it's a thing that ~mostly men~ do, because: privilege. But it's so tiring to have to explain this, and not create a "do you not do this? then here are your feminist cookies, now try and convince other men to behave the same way rather than protesting your innocence, pls" badge afresh each time.

I know. I thought I said that I realized that? It just SOUNDS like it does in a way that makes me uncomfortable using it even though I know that.

Thank you, I couldn't quite find the calm place to think of that explanation from. Also, aren't blogs media? Maybe not in the big/commercial sense.

FT - I don't know if there's anything else I can say other than what I already have. I'm sorry that it's felt that way and will try to better clarify that I don't mean to delegitimize other people's experiences. In some ways though I've felt the similarly insofar as what I was saying earlier where is often seems like people have responded to things I've said in such a way as to suggest that I haven't experienced certain things/feelings because I just don't know or am not enlightened enough to realize certain things when I feel pretty firmly that, while surely true sometimes, is not always the case.

Also, I need to say this because I was really upset at the time but you were really horrible to me and all of the other women in this thread not that long ago. I know it was in reaction to the situation you’re describing above but I don’t really think that makes it OK. I was hurt and extremely upset when you completely dismissed my academic/work experience in a post that can only be described as a personal attack. I needed to mention this because it seems strange to me to be having these discussions without at least acknowledging that whole thing happened. I mean, you also took it outside ILX which just wasn’t on. I also realize that I responded in a pretty cruel and perhaps harsher way than was necessary but I was really upset (and understandably so imo) at the time.

WRT WS I understand that it makes some people uncomfortable and they don't want to participate and that's fine. Personally I'm OK with the judging part of it though, especially when it's positive. It's pretty undeniable that (while women certainly feel the brunt of this a lot more than men and also in completely different ways) we all make judgments about people's physical attractiveness all the time whether it's on a conscious level or not. Appearance is the first thing you notice about someone and a judgment is instantly formed somewhere. Denying that would seem a little strange to me. I don't really have a problem with someone saying "This is someone I find attractive." and find it pretty interesting a lot of the time.

When you say "prostrate cancer is a male disease" - are you saying that ~every~ man has prostrate cancer? Or just that it's a disease that mostly men get, because it's 99.9% (cis) men that get it?

That's kinda how I think about terms like "mansplaining" - while still recognising that the point you make is valid, oc. But I don't know how to get that across.

x-post because I need to read that properly and digest it.

xp I wd just like to say, though, that in certain ways that blow-up precipitated the revival of the Girls Only thread as a way more serious conversation about gender and less of a nail polish comparison manual (an awesome thing which has its OWN thread on normal ilx) and I think the GOT has become many times more active and supportive and brought something back to the conversation(s) on ilx that had kind of disappeared without anyone saying anything.

And I need that, because I can only fight the battles that I perceive to be present, and I need other people to provide meaty discussion topics that I'll never think of, and drop facts I don't know, and remind me to be kind and work for something better for everyone and not go down my personal rabbit-hole of anger.

Yeah, what FT said. There's also a parallel between that sort of objection to "mansplain" and the "Schrodinger's Rapist" phenomenon (it's too hard to post links on Zing, but search for sh@pley pr0se and schrodinger's rapist and you'll find the post.

While recognizing the many problems inherent to the term (including the one E articulates) I am unmoved by men's objections to the term because said objections change the conversation from "here is a thing that men often do to women that is a symptom of and also perpetuates sexism" to "your experiences are invalid because this word is imperfect and makes me feel bad."

I'd rather be able to have the discussion than spend that energy spraring men's feelings.

idk, i started out in the 'mansplaining is the correct term for this thing, it is an ugly but unavoidable term' camp but hmmm

i feel like "mansplaining" could be unfolded to "explaining, the way men do it" (which does not necessarily mean all men but certainly suggests a 'typical' man)
but you can't really say "getting prostate cancer, the way men do it" unless you are doing stand-up of some kind

(i have been thinking about the man-prefix quite a lot recently, after deciding to retire 'manwhore' from my vocabulary)

(because while it is a funny thing to say about dudes it implies a whole world of seriously unfunny things about women)

Sorry, I'm not ignoring what you're saying, E, I just need to think about it.

...

but seriously, on another topic, there comes a point where I just have to disengage when someone keeps repeating something ~as truth~ that has like 30 to 40 years of academic debunking of, and I just can't keep having that conversation without going crazy. I can't. I know this seems like I'm bowing out of the argument and letting them win, but it's like... there's 40 years of research on it. Go look it up! I know I brought up this subject, but, like - I have to remember. I am not ILX's personal Womens Studies Professor. If someone has a brain, go look it up. It becomes derailing for dummies - and I feel like, if I don't have the stamina to have these arguments I shouldn't bring it up, but really. I try but... I can't.

That's fine!

No, Foth, I think putting the info out there is all you can do. I ran into this blank wall w a male acquaintance the oth weekend and posted about it as well--people that should be allies still have some seriously fucked up and purposefully ignorant habits of thought and comment.

It is 6pm the day before I go on holiday and I am still staring at a report I haven't finished because I've been having these arguments, yet again, and I hate this feeling that yet again, I've got that "if you actually cared about this, you would explain 30 years of study to me instead of quoting authorities" which makes me feel like I've lost but really : I HAVE A LIFE I WOULD LIKE TO BE LIVING.

FT - get your stuff done and go home. Don't feel the need to respond to that post of mine now btw. I just wanted to put that out there but I understand needing to think about it. I thought it just deserved and needed to be mentioned and not in a malicious way either. I would have felt too fake not at least acknowledging it in some way.

seriously, do not let this get in the way of your awesome holiday! you having a gloriously beautiful break is way more important to the world than pandering to someone's argument-delaying tactic.

er xpost, i meant the explain 30 years of study stuff to me, we're all clear on that, right

This is so exhausting. Need to close the window before this happens:

http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444

Talk Show Host just came on Spodify so I'll be waiting with a gun and a pack of sandwiches, I'm READY.

(Yeah, I was talking about the "explain 30 years of feminist lingustics to me at 6pm on your last day" topic, not the unresolved stuff with E - just making that clear too!)

I prefer to use "condescension" as a catch-all for people explaining things to me that I already know, or acting like I'm stupid, or don't know what a churro is, or whatever. I am also the sort of person who will hold back like 498 of the 500 things I actually know because I like to have an arsenal of secret weapons at my disposal.

Anyway, my $0.02 is this: the ws thread has never really seemed as malevolent to my eyes as "women's magazines" in general -- ws says "this is attractive" whereas SELF/Cosmo suggests "this not-real picture of a humanoid is attractive and here are some lies to achieve that look, which btw you will never EVER achieve"

objectification vs focused self-esteem squashing, basically

LOLing a little at the idea of someone explaining a churro to you. Has that happened?

a mere two days ago!

There's a scene in Sheriff where the sheriff goes hunting with his daughter, and he sees some turkey shit in the path, and he says, "Jessica. You see that? That's turkey droppins. A turkey left that." The camera later pans to Jessica, and you know she is still pissed about the turkey droppins incident. She doesn't say a word, but you can tell. I love that part!

I mean lots of times I really don't know shit -- and at those times I like to have people explain things to me. But I know turkey droppins. Most of us do.