Magazine/website/record store BEST OF 2011 end-of-year list pile-up

I'm not all that convinced about the concept of gateway records/artists but have no problem with a thing not being a "proper version" of a thing

I suppose it does in a way explain the rapid rise and subsequent fall of certain kinds of artists though - once people either go through a door, or retreat from whence they came, leaving the artist in a limbo area

Yeah, the gateway thing doesn't really ring true for me either. Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B

xpost what kinds of artists do you mean?

Yeah, the gateway thing doesn't really ring true for me either. Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B

― Number None, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:37 (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink

Yes, but it's still getting people out of their comfort zones. Sure a lot of Weeknd fans will say dumb shit like "It's r'n'b music, but, like, good, y'know?", but (and here's hoping) they'll stop swimming in the kiddie pool after a while and start exploring other things. That's how tastes evolve - more often than not it's not about being hit round the head by something that challenges every idea and value you hold about what makes something "good".

And the people listening to The Weeknd, I'm glad to say, aren't doing it in an ironic way. It's not like they're saying "ooh look at me, I'm listening to that r'n'b nonsense, what a loveable rogue I am". It's being treated with reverence most of the time. There was so much posturing and post-modernism going on in the last decade, particularly with the whole eighties revival thing and it's nice to be getting away from much of that IMO.

I'm not all that convinced about the concept of gateway records/artists but have no problem with a thing not being a "proper version" of a thing

Yeah, as much as it pains me to say this, AW absolutely OTM.

Because I know that I tend to get snobby about ppl getting into, say, BRMC and me being all "that's not proper dronerock!" - but if someone made the same protest about me previously saying that the great thing about Busted was, that they were bubblegum punk, and utterly *not* a gateway into "proper" (i.e. shit emo) punk.

Like it for what it is, but don't pretend that you're getting out of your paddling pool when it comes to comfort zones of Other music.

I dunno, obv this is my perception. I think the difference these days is we now have access to much more music online that it's really easy to discover stuff via Last.FM, YouTube, Spotify etc. If you're interested in one thing, it's likely you'll come across something else sooner or later. Who's to say lots of kids didn't get into Green Day through Busted and then into NOFX and then Black Flag and Minor Threat and Converge?

Metal Hammer Top 50 albums of 2011

50 Trap Them - Darker Handcraft
49 Primus - Green Naugahyde
48 Arabrot - Solar Anus
47 Hammers Of Misfortune - 17th Street
46 Cerebral Ballzy - S/T
45 YOB - Atma
44 TessaracT - One
43 Steven Wilson - Grace For Drowning
42 Vallenfyre - A Fragile King
41 Times Of Grace - Hymns Of A Broken Man
40 The Dwarves - The Dwarves Are Born Again
39 Anvil - Juggernaut Of Justice
38 Ken Mode - Venerable
37 Altar Of Plagues - Mammal
36 Blood Ceremony - Living With The Ancients
35 Will Haven - Voir Dire
34 Skeletonwitch - Forever Abomination
33 Wormrot - Dirge
32 Nightwish - Imaginaerum
31 Devin Townsend - Ghost
30 Dream Theater - A Dramatic Turn Of Events
29 Solstafir - Svartir Sandar
28 Foo Fighters - Wasted Light
27 Trivium - In Waves
26 Jane's Addiction - The Great Escape Artist
25 In Solitude - The World,The Flesh,The Devil
24 The Damned Things - Ironiclast
23 Pentagram - Last Rites
22 Autopsy - Macabre Eternal
21 Steel Panther - Balls Out
20 Motorhead - The World Is Yours
19 Black Stone Cherry - Between The Devil & The Deep Blue Sea
18 Ancient VVisdom - A Godlike Inferno
17 Primordial - Redemption At The Puritan's Hand
16 Wolves In The Throne Room - Celestial Lineage
15 Devildriver - Beast
14 Amebix - Sonic Mass
13 The Devil's Blood - The Thousandfold Epicentre
12 Gentleman's Pistols - At Her Majesty's Pleasure
11 Evile - Five Serpents Teeth
10 Graveyard - Nuclear Blast
9 Skindred - Union Black
8 Black Spiders - Sons Of The North
7 Devin Townsend Project - Deconstruction
6 Hell - Human Remains
5 Megadeth - Thirt3en
4 Opeth - Heritage
3 Anthrax - Worship Music
2 Machine Head - Unto The Locust

1 MASTODON - THE HUNTER

Why would it be a ~good~ thing if kids got "into Green Day through Busted and then into NOFX and then Black Flag and Minor Threat and Converge"

That's just rockist bullshit. Who's to say that it's not equally valid if kids got into Backstreet Boys, the Jackson 5 and the Supremes through their bubblegum influences?

It's not the path that gets you there that's the wrong thing. It's the inherent privileging of one over the other that is problematic.

Unlike the Lex, I have no problem with people liking indie-flavoured R&B, so long as they don't pretend that Indie is somehow inherently *better* than R&B. It just isn't.

I think you're putting quite a lot of words in my mouth here TBH. Busted isn't even part of this, as they're not current to the trend I'm talking about.

i am really happy that people are getting into any music at all through me!

Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B

yeah this is the crux of it for me - or not just mainstream r&b, just other r&b, including the traditional stuff and the genuinely weird sideways alt-stuff.

also i think it's perfectly legit to call out grown-ass professional critics who privilege indie-r&b and either dismiss or don't bother with much else (as opposed to just casual listeners, who - sigh - can listen to what they want, as long as they don't make stupid arguments for it to me à la the above)

it does make me SERIOUSLY smh to see EOY write-ups of frank ocean and the weeknd framed in terms of "omg, you'll never guess, this was a free download on the internet and yet we paid attention" because none of those people paid attention to dawn richard or nikkiya DID THEY

everything's a free download on the internet nowadays

dog latin how many of the metal hammer list have you heard?

im surprised uncle acid and the deadbeats missed out on both Kerrang and Metal Hammers lists

xxp ha yeah I get the impression that a lot of writers are still getting to grips w/ the idea of *normal listeners* being able to lawfully acquire albums for free

JR: none of 'em. woops! i was interested to hear the arabrot album though. oh i think i've scraped the surface of the opeth record. seriously, i only listen to a minutiae of the amount of metal i used to - this is mostly due to who i live with and who i hang out with these days as opposed to anything else.

dog latin is getting old!

(This is where JR and I have ~differences~ but I am really uncomfortable with the way that "Metal" has been raised to that position of automatic rockist privilege that "Indie" used to occupy 20 years ago, now that "Indie" has become completely mainstream. But this is challops and I know it.)

also i think it's perfectly legit to call out grown-ass professional critics who privilege indie-r&b and either dismiss or don't bother with much else (as opposed to just casual listeners, who - sigh - can listen to what they want, as long as they don't make stupid arguments for it to me à la the above)

― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:02 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

This isn't particular to r'n'b either, but it's just the way things are for a lot of genres outside the general pop/rock domain. For some reason Mastodon became the go-to metal band for non-metal critics to write about a while back. They're a good band, but are they THE BEST? Probably not. Then you've got Liturgy - a black metal band who dress as hipsters - and as you can imagine they have SCORN poured over them by so-called "true" black metal types who see them as an insult to their traditions. But is it bad that Liturgy (who I haven't heard yet, but understand are pretty good) get reviewed in Pitchfork, but not Weakling? I wouldn't say it's fair but if it means indie kids might be tempted to check out a bit of metal for a change, then I'm all for it.

dog latin is getting old!

― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:14 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

Yes, yes. Also to do with getting to listen to music for a maximum of 2-3 hours a day on weekdays, and wanting to cram as much in as possible. And having a girlfriend who's studying, neighbours and paper-thin-walls etc. I hate listening to metal quietly, so it ends up being placed on the back burner. A real shame!

I know metal encompasses a variety of styles but interesting that it gets lists of 50 and over from its dedicated mags. Anything else with the same monolithic label (hip-hop, country, dance/electronic, even 'indie' lol) had lists that extensive from dedicated channels (may be examples upthread that i missed)?

This is where JR and I have ~differences~ but I am really uncomfortable with the way that "Metal" has been raised to that position of automatic rockist privilege that "Indie" used to occupy 20 years ago, now that "Indie" has become completely mainstream.

Huh?

I like Liturgy a lot and have listened to as much black metal this year as almost anything else but I don't think you could get me to actually care about black metal 'culture' being 'belittled' if you put a gun to my head

Yes, it's absolute bollocks isn't it? If the music's good, why complain?

also Weakling are kind of indie-friendly as the genre goes, P4K would prolly write about them if they reformed tomorrow tbh

xp it's not so much that as 'what a disaster for a bunch of mostly white male self-proclaimed misanthropes'

Well, I think it's also because BM fans don't see why Liturgy should be given the upper hand just because they dress in casual clothes. I can imagine there's also a sentiment of tokenism here, Liturgy appealing to "in it for a minute" fans, or whatever.

Then you've got Liturgy - a black metal band who dress as hipsters - and as you can imagine they have SCORN poured over them by so-called "true" black metal types who see them as an insult to their traditions. But is it bad that Liturgy (who I haven't heard yet, but understand are pretty good) get reviewed in Pitchfork, but not Weakling? I wouldn't say it's fair but if it means indie kids might be tempted to check out a bit of metal for a change, then I'm all for it.

yeah Liturgy are scorned by some for his 'essays' and youtube videos.
Weakling probably preceded pitchfork hence no coverage.

I'm so out of touch...

you should hang out in metal threads then
and get a pair of headphones

NY resolution IMO

Okay, Katy B is no 2 in the Guardian list and presumably PJ Harvey is no 1.

is that predictable for the guardian?

I suggest we stop thinking of genres and concentrate on artists instead. Questions of taxonomy are impossible to answer. Lots of listeners don't consider Lady Antebellum and Taylor Swift country. Artists shape genres, not the other way around.

Many years ago, knowing little about traditional R&B other than what I heard on the radio, I bought a Luther Vandross comp -- a perfect gateway. Then I bought artists similar to Vandross. Soon whatever I considered "R&B" sounded accessible -- I "got it," so to speak.

My favorite R&B album of the year: Marsha Ambrosius' Late Nights & Early Mornings. Seek it out!

is that predictable for the guardian?

I don't know, but it's a way less boring result than it could have been.

KATY B!

it was predictable for me but that's cuz i knew who else was voting and what their tastes were (which is why i was certain that beyoncé would be top 10, too). i imagine it is not so predictable to the beloved comments box massive

*gets popcorn out*

This list has just lost its last shred of credibility.

Poor show all round for people whose taste in music is meant to be at professional levels.

Hang your head in shame, Guardian Music.

haha

just to post in character, did any metal make the list? A token album even? Mastodon?

The Lex is obviously truly invested in r'n'b and gets frustrated with critics fawning over this spruced up, watered down, crossover stuff when in his experience there's much better stuff out there

framing in the argument in this way cracks me up since there are a LOT of people who would characterize the kind of R&B that lex stumps for as spruced up, watered down, crossover stuff. that's kind of why i shy away from these "REAL R&B" convos because i'm used to being on the other end of those kinds of debates about soul music traditions and purism.

that said, R&B is having a serious identity crisis these days, critically as well as commercially and creatively, but i feel like that also makes it an exciting time with a lot of music that's great and/or worth talking about.

i dont read the guardian so i dont know what the 'comments box massive' listen to generally, but i can make a guess at radiohead,gapdyxx,fleet foxes, bon iver etc?

43 Machine Head – Unto the Locust

^ metal on the Guardian list

i didn't expect machine head to be the token metal act! I've not heard that album but it's popping up a lot. I suppose I should give it a listen. I did like a couple of their older albums

But... but... this is top of the pops fodder. This is uninteresting, unintelligent, plain boring pop music. There is really only one album issued this year that you think is better than this? Only one?

:D

pop music is boring?

Innerspeaker

15 December 2011 1:25PM
Response to rupert303, 15 December 2011 1:17PM

Hang your head in shame, Guardian Music.

Both Katy B and Beyonce are in the Hipster's Bible's (Pitchfork's) Top 30 albums of the year.

You know, just saying.....

Just sayin'

Yes nothing in the guardian list should appear in any other list.

lex do you know how many people voted?