Blah blah blah SB is an infringement of my human rights blah blah

not necessarily, you can always get your SB in at the start and then move on to the ad hom

yeah but that's what i'm saying, there's no basis for that belief at all, sure what can you do if someone's tellin you that?

I'd sb them

but again, by definition you can't ad hom a new poster cos you don't have any hom to ad, so i still think it's a case of attacking the idea.

but in all seriousness, a bit of slapstick intellectual vigour isn't a bad thing in a world full of Youtube comment threads

that is so far from the ilx norm imo NE

am worried there's a world of pop-despising John Terry-loving hyper-Tories out there desperate to post on ILX but frightened we'll be mean

Because as soon as someone says something people disagree with, it turns into a massive ad hominen insulting clusterfuck, especially if they try and defend themselves, and an SB seems to be the obvious conclusion to that, no?

Well, I don't think so, but what do I know? Obv. I'm not posting to enough ad hominen insulting clusterfucks.

Fold that into the fact that not everyone has skin made of iron and can shrug off mean, nasty, ad hominem attacks, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that ILX's success is despite of SB, not because of it.

This is totally confused. One of the things SB is arguably good at is giving people a way to say that mean, nasty ad hominem attacks are not OK, without having to give themselves a skin of iron to face the ultra-vocal minority.

And if you think ILX is nice, I think the culture change that SB was a small part of is one of the reasons why. In 2006, it wasn't so nice. It's interesting to see some of the old sandbox threads from that time pop up around here -- there's a really different, much more fuck-you, tone to some of them.

This is what's so frustrating, talking about this. Because a bunch of ~dudes~ who can't see past their own experiences keep insisting "I don't feel this way, so I can never imagine anyone ever feeling this way, so therefore, despite the actual stated evidence of people telling me that they feel this way... INCONCEIVABLE! NO ONE CAN EVER FEEL THIS WAY AT ALL EVER!"

SB does *nothing* to control clusterfucks. In fact, I think it actively discourages moderators from actually stepping in to do something pro-active about clusterfucks because hey, "SB will eventually take care about that, why should I take the shit for stopping it" and it's all just fun and games if a poster gets ILX bullied into their local emergency room with stress-related psychological issues directly triggered by a 500 post pile-on. (And that poster is actually *afraid* to even bring this experience up on ILX for fear that they'll be SB'd for even talking about that kind of experience.)

But of course, none of you ~dudes~ can possibly imagine things like that happening because hey, footie fans can ~handle~ thrashing out their challopsy opinions so it's inconceivable that anyone else would look at something like that and be put off contributing a valuable and interesting opinion for fear of being treated in that way, or SB'd by some jerk with a hangover?

Why would anyone even try to explain their differing opinions on ILX, if their differing experiences and perceptions are just pooh-poohed and utterly dismissed outright by a bunch of dudes with arms crossed?

ILX is ~nicer~ now because a small handfull of tone-setting arseholes like Dom and Chaki and Jon Williams were MODERATOR BANNED.

If you want to continue to say "SB is the reason ILX is nicer now" you can go on saying that til you're blue in the face, but again, it's like republicans insisting that abstinence only sex ed must work because, well, we beleive in it.

yeah how dare you do something imaginary that never actually happens ILX, for shame

you must be new

sb isn't the reason some posters keep getting involved in clusterfucks either, tbph

FT, i think somewhere where i was being serious i made reference to the fact that your SBing was mean-spirited and not cool, and very much about yr board persona and long term grudges.

Firstly, none of that cd possibly apply to people who aren't at least reasonably well-known board posters.

Secondly, and i sincerely mean this with respect, but your confrontational approach to disagreement - and sometimes, i think, disagreement with no underlying malice intended - at the least gives people an excuse to hit the SB. it takes some going to reach 51 and you have to consider that a percentage of that 51 came from people who had no personal ill will but were unhappy with the way you were conducting yourself on the board. as stet says, SB does give people the chance to register a serious protest without going full-on flame war or drawing attention to themselves that they mightn't want.

ILX is ~nicer~ now because a small handfull of tone-setting arseholes the realest posters we ever had like Dom and Chaki and Jon Williams were MODERATOR BANNED.

am worried there's a world of pop-despising John Terry-loving hyper-Tories out there desperate to post on ILX but frightened we'll be mean

― Angles that bitch (Julie Lagger), Tuesday, 13 December 2011 14:27 (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

looool

sb isn't the reason some posters keep getting involved in clusterfucks either, tbph

I didn't say that.

I said that SB is the reason that *moderators* don't step in to do something about clusterfucks, believing that "SB will just take care of that" when SB does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop clusterfucks.

If you can't grasp the nuance of that, I seriously give up.

Oh So Real! (xposts)

Anyway, I thought Chaki just plain left.

in the sense that Leon Trotsky just plain left the Communist Party, yes

I'm obv. not as well attuned as some to the 'niceness' of ILX past and present

Firstly, none of that cd possibly apply to people who aren't at least reasonably well-known board posters.

I have tried to get SO MANY people I know to participate on ILX becauase they have great things to say about music, and I want their opinions to be heard. But when they see the way that many people (yes, including me and my grudge SB-ing) get treated, they tell me "I can't deal with doing that."

People watch. People learn, people project how *they* will be treated, from seeing how others are treated. This is something you just don't seem to grasp. You don't even know, the people that you have lost. But they've told me, after they walk away.

Leon Trotsky had a hot chick waiting for him in his bed?

I'm sorry, I can't do this. I feel my blood pressure rising and my brain starting to tick over into stuff that I know will do me no good, mentally. I'm out, and it's probably for the best.

Funnily enough, I have only ever invited one person to ILX.

Let's say, we lived through 'interesting times'.

I wouldn't want anyone I know reading the shite I post on ILX

Has any ~dude~ here said "no one can ever feel this way ever?"

Also: Is this a particularly gender-differentiated topic? There are plenty of ~dudes~ who hate SB too, FT.

You don't even know, the people that you have lost. But they've told me, after they walk away.
I know about all the people we lost that led to us adding SB. Are they more or less valuable than the would-be posters who would like to post but are afraid that posting like you do would get them SB'd too?

^^^

my ^^^^ were xp tbh

As someone who's been SB'd like four times, I think SB is hilarious and awesome and I try to SB everyone for the dumbest shit.

People lived on ILX for a while, then they moved on.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2011/10/486687.jpg

Is there a big 'History of SB Book' somewhere? Or a jaymc.xls of who has been banned throughout the years? Surely it's no more than fifteen people right? And some were banned several times (hi dere whiney and frogbs).

I mean, I get what some of you are saying, I won't doubt anyone's honest feelings on the matter, but to say people are "mortified" to post here, or as FT says "But when they see the way that many people get treated they tell me "I can't deal with doing that"... I don't know. "Many people" are treated poorly here?

LJ caught three or four, T-dogg and Hongroe have done two bids each iirc

Well, my point I was making wayyyy back was:

For something like the SB feature to get 'removed', it'd take a consensus of people to say "We dislike it please take it away".

Whereas here, and possibly on our new hosting server, it may well be something that 'costs extra' to re-establish. Which means it would need a general consensus to say "We must have it"

I was asking "Can we do without it?"

Yes we can. We went without before and are doing without now. Real question is if we want it back once we can have it back.

can we speculate on the people we may have lost, living in a sb culture - perhaps a young, timid but brilliant blond student boy, fresh with ideas but afraid of internet scorn, his opinions on burritos & energy efficiency lost to time, kept inside, mumbled under his breath on his quiet subway rides home; or a young woman with fire in her heart, but without the patience to have to explain herself politely, the way one must when keeping within the strictly drawn lines painted by sb law

schlump frequently otm

For something like the SB feature to get 'removed', it'd take a consensus of people to say "We dislike it please take it away".

I dislike it, so I don't use it, if other people do that's up to them

lol people getting heated about a fucking sb

sb is over, if you want it

is anyone else keeping a notepad tally of people they're gonna belatedly sb when we get back to ilx, lookin at you carnitas

~dude~-ishness has little to do with gender, it's an attitude and an imperviousness to recognising other people's points of view as valid. Not every man is a ~dude~ by any stretch.

I know about all the people we lost that led to us adding SB. Are they more or less valuable than the would-be posters who would like to post but are afraid that posting like you do would get them SB'd too?

It's not "posting like I do" - this is what I can't seem to get across. It's friends who say to me "jesus, you have an elephant's hide when it comes to dealing with internet crap, and *you* have trouble there? What is gonna happen to someone like me, who is actually sensitive and quite self conscious about getting blasted for saying the wrong thing?"

These are the people you lose to SB, not fuckwits like Whiney who can't learn/won't learn.

Now I'm going to go and look at pictures of Thom Yorke's ponytail for the rest of the afternoon because this is like beating my head against a brick wall.

i have 6-month reminders set into my phone, straight up

awesome I cant wait xxp

Whereas here, and possibly on our new hosting server, it may well be something that 'costs extra' to re-establish. Which means it would need a general consensus to say "We must have it"

It doesn't cost extra, we will be having it.

That said, and this might feel like merely a cosmetic change, but I do kinda hate the phrasing "Suggest Ban" and may change it to "Flag Post" to better reflect what it does.

(Someone generating a huge number of flagged posts would be still be likely to get some mod beats, but we haven't had the completely automated Ban for some years now.)

xp to me: FT's had at least two too? both of Tuomas' were directly a result of anti-SB-clusterfuckery*, and I think that's been at least an immediate, if not the dominant, factor in hers

*he'd gotten near the top of the hill a week or so before the first time by blithely posting a link to str0mfr[]nt in classic "idk what's going on" stylee, but the clusterfucking would have taken him all the way eventually

PS FT I hope you've both stopped reading this thread and continue to enjoy your sandbox experience

is anyone else keeping a notepad tally of people they're gonna belatedly sb when we get back to ilx

Got a greasemonkey script which adds an SB button, queues them up to be released in a torrent of fury when ilx proper returns.

lol xp again, also insert comma in last sentence

"Flag Post" is entirely different, to my mind.

yeah, rly good idea imo

i like stet swooping in w/some sage logic about something that has been debated for one hundred thousand years w/o touching on such a move

this is the kind of brave leadership we need

I seriously have a hard time believing that people would be afraid to post to ILX for fear of being SB'd when only a handful of people (all of whom deserved it in one way or another) have ever acutally been SBd. That is just ridiculous and makes me think people are exaggerating the SB system and what it entails/results in.