well nene is pretty athletic, he's a pretty decent defender i think
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
nene can't lock anyone down is the thing
― k3vin k., Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:56 AM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
I just totally disagree.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
the magic won two total playoff games fwiw
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:55 AM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
they were a top 3 in defensive efficiency while having only one above average defender on their team
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:55 AM (1 minute ago)
they were like sixth in team defense and had like eight terrible defenders other than howard
― k3vin k., Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
howard is superman tho
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:58 (twelve years ago) link
i would say that that speaks more to the absurd talent of dwight howard
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:58 (twelve years ago) link
"protecting the rim" is definitely important if you don't really mean "blocking shots." Blocking shots + Drawing charges, for example, is a much better metric.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
yeah w/e blocking shots is a bullshit stat, charges is too, its abt making people miss or chose not to attempt layups, doesnt matter how you do it
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 15:58 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:58 AM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
it speaks to both - like not even the best perimeter defender the world has ever seen could have that sort of effect on a team
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:00 (twelve years ago) link
ah ok I think we were talking past each other then. xp
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:00 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:57 AM (35 seconds ago)
the numbers agree with me - he can't stop other centers for shit but his mobility and help defense make him a solid defender. he got murdered in the post last year
― k3vin k., Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:00 (twelve years ago) link
well tbf he's a PF.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:01 (twelve years ago) link
http://l.yimg.com/iu/api/res/1.2/Zn1zDvH1FiuYy_3MuKb.qQ--/YXBwaWQ9eXZpZGVvO2NoPTIxNTtjcj0xO2N3PTE2NDtkeD0xO2R5PTE7Zmk9dWxjcm9wO2g9ODU7cT0xMDA7dz02NQ--/http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/v/nba/players_l/20101116/3605.jpg
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:01 (twelve years ago) link
which is why he's demanding to play the 4 wherever he goes this year.
he's a very good player! but he certainly should be paired with a stronger defensive big if you're going to maximize his value
― k3vin k., Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:02 (twelve years ago) link
he needs to be paired with a legit 7 footer.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:02 (twelve years ago) link
Gasol is probably fine except against 3 or 4 teams.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:03 (twelve years ago) link
When I see Nene I see a guy having a ton of success defensively except against a few 7 footers who are able to shoot over him too easily. against the shorter PFs he, yes, locks them down.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:05 (twelve years ago) link
idk, i feel like tyson chandler's effect on the finals was pretty minimal for a guy that's about to get paid $50m for "protecting the rim"
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:54 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
he was so key! i mean i wouldnt pay him but thats more abt his age and injury history, if there was more likelihood that hed repeat that performance hes totally worth it - look at the nba champions from the last ten years - they all have one of these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:05 (twelve years ago) link
I hope that the heat win a chip w/o having a legit big guy
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:07 (twelve years ago) link
Chandler was huge, for sure.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:07 (twelve years ago) link
― dayo, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
its possible, but itd be a lot easier if they traded for howard
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:08 (twelve years ago) link
who were the big men on MJ's teams? horace grant, rodman?
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:10 (twelve years ago) link
the mavs won bcuz of dirk & their three point shooting
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:10 (twelve years ago) link
the "big men win championships" thing is silly because, yeah most title teams have good big men. Most (more?) of them have elite 2 guards.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:10 (twelve years ago) link
ESPNChrisPalmer chris palmer Better forward combo than Dirk Nowitzki + Lamar Odom?
how dumb is this dude
xp LUC LONGLEY
― k3vin k., Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:11 (twelve years ago) link
you could've reduced chandler's minutes by half and it wouldn't have mattered -- dude was getting swatted in the post by d wade
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:11 (twelve years ago) link
I can def see how w/ the proliferation of penetration-friendly rules you just need better rim protection period
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:11 (twelve years ago) link
lol how good was LUC LONGLEY in his prime tho? wasn't he just a slow white guy xp
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (15 seconds ago)
this whole thing becomes sort of a tautology past a certain point
― k3vin k., Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:12 (twelve years ago) link
xp lol yeah he wasn't that good
you need players, is what I'm saying. You got 3 studs, you'll be there in the end.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:13 (twelve years ago) link
― dayo, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:10 AM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
over the last ten years which is the most relevant comparison for how basketball is played now in the nba more of the champions have had defensively elite big men than elite two guards by far!
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:13 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:11 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
you are being totally insane jordan, the mavs played really really good D all through out the playoffs, chandler was completely key to that
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:15 (twelve years ago) link
well i think the thing that throws this argument off is that the major championship teams of the past decade all had very important, good defensive big men, except basically it was just two players, shaq and tim duncan.
i think it shows us more that if you can get a historically good big man, you have a very good shot of winning the title. i'm not sure that you need some goon like tyson chandler who can't do shit on offense.
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:16 (twelve years ago) link
so i mean yeah ppl should prob try and get dwight howard
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:13 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
manu, wade, kobe.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:17 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:16 AM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
JORDAN, BEN WALLACE KEVIN GARNETT AND TYSON CHANDLER ARE ON THE PHONE FOR U
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:18 (twelve years ago) link
kevin garnett makes my point more than it makes yours -- you should've said perkins or something
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:18 (twelve years ago) link
jordan was a big man?
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:18 (twelve years ago) link
also i think against elite opponents "rim protectors" are less important because of how often star players will get to the line -- like it doesn't matter if you have a "rim protector" vs the heat cuz wade & bron are gonna get to the line 30 times a game
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:19 (twelve years ago) link
a lot of rim protecting the rim that noah, gibson and asik did
what about the 04 pistons - sheed, wallace, who else? DARKO?
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:21 (twelve years ago) link
sorry I forgot ELDEN CAMPBELL
― dayo, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:22 (twelve years ago) link
i think wallace's impact was less about rim protecting and more about rebounding the shit out of the ball
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:22 (twelve years ago) link
prob say the same about chandler too
yeah let's be real, noah is good and all, but the reason that team's defense is sick is the perimeter D.
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:22 (twelve years ago) link
exactly - he was not a great shotblocker xp
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:17 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Permalink
1st of all manu was not by any measure elite in 03, 2nd it doesnt matter my point still stands - 10 defensive big men in ten years, 6 elite shooting guards
btw i do think this comparison is so inexact as to be prob meaningless cause like some other team couldve easily won any of those year, but still its k interesting
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:23 (twelve years ago) link
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:18 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
― v-shasty, Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:19 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
now u are just being willfully inane
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:24 (twelve years ago) link
like, tyson chandler will make the knicks better, but the idea that he alone is going to cure all of their defensive ills is totally nuts
― v-shasty, Sunday, 11 December 2011 16:24 (twelve years ago) link