Girls thread cont.

I think Laurel has a good point re internalizing certain norms. The situation feels really familiar to me, but as I'm thinking about it, I can't think of any recent examples. Jeff's pretty game to try new things.

I used to be one of those girls that said "All my friends are guys, I don't really like girls" which I cringe at now but it was true to an extent. For a long time my closest friends were almost exclusively guys. This has changed a lot over time in part because I've met some awesome and amazing women but also because I let myself realize that not all girls suck and I've become a lot more open to female friendships. Anyway, I think part of the reason that was the case is that I've always been into a lot of "guy stuff" in terms of pop culture interests? I don't know. I've also been pretty privileged insofar as that I've known a lot of really great and amazing men. Plus, if I thought someone was dismissing something I was interested in based on my gender I would be really fucking pissed off.

― ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ (~curious orange~), Wednesday, December 7, 2011 5:35 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

THIS IS EXACTLY ME. Though I think a large proportion of my gaining female friends is down to the fact that at school/during teen years they perhaps felt more of a compulsion to conform to the stereotypical 'girl' thing in order to be popular, whereas I knew I wasn't ever going to be popular, so I might as well be myself and just hate/be hated by everyone. On the other hand, I still have moments of rage towards my female friends, such as when we organise something like a book club, and because it happens to end up entirely female it stops being a book club and starts being a "let's talk about shoes and handbags" club. That is not what I signed up for. I mean, even here, which is a GIRL STUFF thread, I feel rejected and disappointed when conversation turns to make-up etc, like it's done just to remind me that I'm not a real girl and never will be.

It seriously feels like it's because it's ME showing them, like in their mind that's not the arrangement, or it implies some kind of weakness. Like, no we have to show YOU.
And my husband's not a macho dude, thats what's so confusing.

I actually have experienced this with one guy friend in particular years ago and iirc it was really obnoxious. I just didn't really think of it as a gender-based thing but what Laurel and Jenny mention about internalizing certain norms/roles could very well have been a factor the more that I think about it/this person in particular.

you're always a woman to me (and billy joel)

Oh god what was I enthusing about to somebody recently and the person was almost gnawing off a foot to get away and I knew it but I like couldn't stop enthusing. I can't remember but it was hilarious to both of us.

VG, that sounds like it's just a well-worn role. Your husband presents the pursuit and you accept it. That sounds like the kind of thing there is a way to fix and approach and I can almost hear the advice column language for it in my head but I can't articulate it.

Also any time you want to talk horror movies, holler.

Aw, Emily - stop!! You are so a girl (and to me that means that you're something awesome and amazing). Also, LOL that I posted what you were OTMoney-ing and that I'm also one of the ppl who posts most about make-up and shit. I wasn't always so into that stuff but sort of became more so over the years. Anyway I don't know what my point is here - I just thought that was funny.

Amanda started an ILS offshoot thread - maybe we should make better use of it since makeup, etc isn't just for women and not all women give a fig for makeup.

Hm well my eyes glaze over when people talk about difficult/experimental/noise music and records and that kind of thing, but those threads are ABOUT records, so...admittedly the No Boys Allowed thread is different, and more of a mix.

Also I'm going to Sephora at lunch to use my coupon and so I will need to tell the Internet about it.

Haha, yeah, I realised that as I was posting it. I mean, I certainly don't think people should stop posting about make-up in a GIRL STUFF thread, I just get paranoid and then sad, because that element of corporeality and bodily representation is just something I've never got to grips with.

xpost to ENBB, also relevant to jenny.

Is it the $15 off of 50? I used that last weekend to get some Christmas presents!

we're all in the same gang

$20 off!

$20!! Lucky!

do you ever find yourselves on the flipside, where a guy will get into something because you recommended it, and then when telling others about said thing will totally write you out of the picture of how he came across/got into this awesome thing? My ex would do this regularly, and it bugged the shit out of me.

Yesssssss

Also professionally.

*rage*

And that's one where I have a hard time standing up for myself because I was taught (one might even say SOCIALIZED) to be modest and let my accomplishments speak for themselves, lest I be a tacky braggart.

my xroommate did that ALLLL the time.

Haha my boss does it, and she is a she. This is just an asshole characteristic.

I guess the thing is -- i was definitely vocal about my annoyance -- how "important" is proper attribution? In a professional setting, it obviously is more so than when it comes to who discovered a particular movie/tv show/band/book, etc. Like in my ex's mind, he felt that what was significant was to communicate the awesomeness and interestingness of the thing, and he didn't think that the details of how he came to be aware of it were pertinent.

this would happen on a regular basis:

my ex: blah blah blah is really great blah blah it is an interesting juxtaposition with other thing blah blah blah. you should totally see it.

friend: sarah, have you seen it?

me: oh, i was the one who made ex-bf see it.

attribution is fine but everyone does this don't they?
am i supposed to thank the person who introduced something to me every time i talk about it? how long does this have to last? not worth getting bent out of shape about unless offense is particularly egregious.

Oh, I used to get so mad about that, but then whenever I questioned it people would always look at me like I was crazy - "You didn't make this track, you just showed me it, now I'm showing other people, what's the big deal?" And I think they're probably right about it on a track by track basis - that problem also partially solved by the facebook 'share' function, so people can give you credit if they're linking to the same youtube you did last night, ha. However, I do still think it's a bigger deal about a band you're really into - if friend X suddenly decided to start spouting off about how amazing Dagmar Kraus is to friends Y and Z without mentioning the fact that I've been digging into the back catalogue and making my own 'best of' compilations for people for some time now, I'd be pretty pissed off.

right, that counts as egregious!

no one really does this to me these days, but my college roommate would make relentless fun of nearly all the music i listened to, and then would get into it after repeated exposure, and when ppl were like oh, that's a cool band you like, she would be like oh thanks. super irritating!

somehow this issue doesn't seem to come up for me anymore--i think it was the fact that we were roommates (in college, so shared an actual room) and were around each other way. too. much.

i have a funny story about this though
"band" is stand-in for actual band because i don't want that to distract from the logistics of the story

i introduced bf to band
he introduced band to his coworker at a grocery store
years later i very briefly dated the coworker (who was my age, bf was older)
coworker tried to introduce ME to BAND
i said yeah, i know about them but thanks

many years pass

coworker and i hang out, neither of us have talked to the bf in yeeeears. we reminisce about old times, and i had the pleasure of telling him that i was the reason that ex-bf introduced him to band

i felt like the wizard of oz

in other words, i am the smug tiny man behind the curtain

i think the thing that bugged me was that he'd do it in my presence. And it compounded - at least in my opinion - the "i/we" issues we had. I dunno if that's related to the social conditioning of a woman's value is determined by whether or not she has a bf/husband ... but I'd always say "we" when referring to something my and my ex did together. And he had a habit of always saying "i" -- even when i was standing right there -- about the same thing. And I'd feel like that was an attempt to render me invisible, or to dismiss my role/value in the experience. And I'd end up saying to him (in private, not in front of people, except in the cases where i was drunk), "You know, it's ok to admit you shared this experience with your girlfriend. It doesn't make you less cool. It doesn't diminish your accomplishment."

I validate your frustration/irritation there. It's one of those things that people might dismiss as small or not worth getting worked up about but I think that's one of those things that tend to grind you down after awhile, in part because the reason for the irritation is hard to articulate. It can also be really hard to get a partner to take you serious about something like that. I get it.

he definitely ended up taking me seriously about it! Of course, that led to the bad habit of "being taken seriously = the product of 20 minutes of screaming/yelling/crying"

I had one of those roommates, too, btw. P much anything I was interested in she would coop and them take to the ~next level~ so ppl would be like "Oh you're so cool and into that thing!" and she would bask in glowing admiration while I sat in a corner and glowered.

Oh god the "screaming yelling crying" to be taken seriously thing is the worst. Having to first argue that you are having a legitimate feeling before you can express it is bullshit!

sometimes it was the only way to get past the "yeah, whatever" stage

any of you see that modern family episode? claire kept telling phil to try a wedge salad & he never did, and he had lunch w/a (male) coworker and they tried the wedge salad & he comes home and is like OMG WEDGE SALAD YOU HAVE TO TRY IT and she completely flips...

this behavior you are describing is super annoying and i am not denying that. it is. however, there's another side to this.

let me introduce you to my father, the inventor of everything under the sun from jazz to civil rights to the industrial midwest to outer space. he invented all of it. it's his. whenever i know something and he doesn't specifically remember telling me about it, he says "how do YOU know about (thing x)?!?!" all incredulously, like *I* could never have learned something without his very special help. it is super duper annoying.

i try to give credit where credit is due -- and like it well enough when people give me credit for introducing them to things -- but there is a limit to the amount i can care about attributing credit to someone for knowing about something before i do.

it is super duper annoying.

I feel like this scores highly on the "understatement" curve.

haha
understatement: invented by my father, 1975

he invented me, after all

from jazz to civil rights to the industrial midwest to outer space

^^ this particular array of inventions is making me giggle

funny because it's true
my dad invented those things and demands credit

other things he invented:
art arfons and the land speed record
boris yeltsin
spelling bees
tennis
soccer
motown

NASA
deviled eggs
chicken salad

New Orleans
learning languages
hiking

I just invented the word "insufferable." Do you think he will like it?

He not only knows that word, but...(he's not a bad person btw, just kinda full of it)

Too late, I made it up a long time ago just to describe him. He doesn't even know about it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6104955/Rapist-next-door-alarms-victim

the rapist ACTUALLY SAYS:
Crofts told The Southland Times this week he knew his victim's address when he moved next door to her about three months ago, but claimed he had nowhere else to go.

He realised that she felt uncomfortable with him living next door, but he also felt nervous when he saw her because he didn't know if she would ring police, he said.

He had served his time in jail and wanted to live a peaceful life, he said.

"If I can get over it, why can't she? It's past tense."

i just... i can't even

i read that story this morning and it made me cry for her, it's so cruel and unfair.

Oh jesus, that is horrible.

Oh my god. Poor woman.

The worst part is that the guy is clearly at a very high risk of reoffending, which just just adds more stress to the situation for the woman.