Let's talk about Ciara's Evolution

i think the reason it doesn't ring true for me is because ciara's stamped her artistic vision so heavily on the new album. whether you think she's able to perform it well or not it's abundantly clear that there's a definite aesthetic (back-to-the-80s old-skool ice rink jams, like one elongated janet jackson tribute) she's aiming for. she never sounds like the vehicle for other people's songs - i mean, i didn't even realise 'i proceed' was a neptunes production until i saw the credits because it sounds less like a beat they gave ciara as an integral part of the evolution, the album.

Now having actually heard this, I like it, but mostly it just reminds me how tired I am of crunk, bubblecrunk, post-crunk, and the etc. The song after "Get Up" is really weird. The song after the song after "Get Up" is really boring. It has the weird distinction of being the only rnb album this year that I havent unabashedly loved (Beyonce, JT, Neyo, John Legend) or been completely indifferent to, (the rest) though it could creep it's way into the former w/ more listens.

In R&B a lot of criticisms seem to come down on either side very sharply when it comes to singing - either technical vocal proficiency is held up as the standard for assessment or people complain that R&B is overly concerned with it at the expense of actual feeling.

The truth as always is a bit more complicated than that.

Um, I do? (Although, in fairness, and I said this when she first came out, she's not offensive to me on record but she isn't particularly engaging either.)

In almost every other aspect of popular music it's accepted that not being able to "play" can be used as a strength if it's paraded with a certain level of conviction/passion.

I disagree with (what I presume are) the assumptions behind this statement for two reasons:

1) In general, you are assuming that the (for lack of a better phrase) parameters for success are the same amongst all different forms of popular music.

2) Specifically as it relates to this song, you are assuming that everyone would agree that Ciara's performance is convincing.

In general I appreciate that R&B places a higher premium on technical vocal performance than, say, rock. This results in a lot of what is good about R&B (and some of what is bad). But just as rock is not limited to a particular notion of a four piece live band, R&B is not limited to a particular notion of singing. This is precisely because we can't ultimately unanimously agree on parameters (altough ps Geir to thread).

I may not have this anecdote exactly right but close enough to make the point I think.

uhh I kind of understand where Dan is coming from, elsewhere I had an argument w/ someone who claimed that the new Nelly Furtado single was better than Aaliyah's entire catalogue and I found this kind of ridiculous; of course they can prefer any song to any other if they want to, but the comparison still seemed to 'miss the point' of aaliyah's approach, which is a much more subtle vocal performance; where Nelly F. is about melody, Aaliyah is melody AND interpretation/style (i'm generalizing, really both artists do both but I think Aaliyah has more of a balance). Not that there's anything wrong with ignoring Aaliyah's subtle qualities, if you prefer the sleek production and cool melody-aspect of the new Furtado single thats cool, but to compare it to Aaliyah's entire catalogue just because its timbaland+singer misses some very significant aspects of R&B performance that I think are integral to MY appreciation of R&B.

uh i have no idea if that made sense.

I've actually started listening to Loose again and noticing how nuanced some of the performances are

100% OTM; given the way everyone on ILM bigged up the club tracks and bashed everything that was ballady or mid-tempo, I was shocked both at how consistently good that whole album is AND by how much of a vocal an emotional chameleon Nelly is on the album (the vocals on "Showtime" sound like a completely different person from what she's doing on "Te Busque", which is totally different from "Say It Right" which is distinct from "Promiscuous" which sounds nothing like "Maneater", etc).

The Aaliyah comparison is interesting because I think both Aaliyaha and Tweet had much stronger vocal presence than Ciara (with Tweet being the strongest). My biggest problem with Ciara is that I feel like she's a completely uninteresting cypher; my enjoyment of her songs are solely tied to how much I like the beat as opposed to anything she's doing.

(The Marvin Gaye story falls down somewhat in this context when you remember that Marvin Gaye was a phenomenally flexible singer who did a bunch of different songs in a bunch of different styles, both strong and tender, whereas Ciara has made the beginnings of her career by singing every song put out for the public like Sade vocalizing into a pillow.)

And, y'know, obviously good vocal performance is a huge part of R&B and it goes towards why Teedra Moses > Aaliyah > Ciara. On a song by song basis though there's no necessary reason why vocal chops will push someone further over the line.