Girls thread cont.

Oh man, I'm so sorry - I didn't even realize her name was in there. :(

that makes sense. the awareness of how/the degree to which one benefits from male sexism is a huge thing in itself...my own acknowledgement of that is a big difference between my young enthusiastic feminism and my old lady jaded feminism.

Who are the sandbox mods?

x-post - No, I know it is. I think I may be making myself seem more ignorant about some of this than I really am. :/

holy god @ "pussy power." it's kind of inconceivable to me that that's a real thing someone thinks.

I'll just stick to recommending you guys some sparkly shit as is my place in life.

(OBVIOUSLY I AM KIDDING JUST IN CASE THAT WASN'T CLEAR)

;)

i used to be a lot less aware of sexism in general, and have ignored misogyny in friends/people i've dated and even participated myself in misogynistic thinking. over the last few years i've educated myself a lot more about feminism, been a part of many online discussions about feminism and gender, and even participated in activist events, which i never would have seen myself doing 5 years ago.

in a way, being aware does make me angrier about things. but before that i was internalizing the anger and directing it at myself, which was not healthy for me in any way.

XP Oh shit can we take that person's first name out of that post, please?!?

got it

oh i didn't mean to say that you had to think about it/hadn't already thought about it. it's just been something i've been talking about a lot with irl friends lately. because we're getting older and more jaded lol.

xxxp to erica

before that i was internalizing the anger and directing it at myself, which was not healthy for me in any way

Yeah, I totally do that.

Oh man so much I want to say but I am at work & on an iPod .

shit, meant to post as anonymous mod, sorry

Hahah thank you!

oh also . . .

"benefited from men's sexism and used it in her best interests again and again and again for many years and doesn't really "notice" it becuase it works TO HER ADVANTAGE."

This is something that I'm sure I've done many many times both consciously and unconsciously and it's something I carry around a lot of guilt about. Like, I feel bad because I know that most times this works to my advantage while for other women that's obv not the case.

OK - badly timed meeting. Back later.

consciously and unconsciously

errr subconsciously

feeling guilty about that is just another way of internalizing anger and directing it at yourself imo. acknowledging that that's a reality of an unequal society in which women are objectified should ideally free you from feeling like it's your fault when it happens.

lol go to your meeting!

like, there's a privilege involved in benefiting from male sexism but it's pretty limited and it seems like you're aware of it, which is what's important.

i feel like i get treated as an "honorary dude" a lot - for better or for worse

This weekend I spent way too much time reading reviews of classic YA novels & now I feel nostalgic and horrible.

I know the feeling. Sometimes I feel like I could spend the rest of my life just reading old YA novels and be happy.

This guy was asking me if I could make a list of "chick" and "dude" traits, like just rhetorically, not that everyone has them but as they are stereotyped, and I said, "I like to drink beer, watch soccer, and work on bikes, so you might be asking the wrong person."

On that subject there's some really good stuff about "patriarchal bargains" out on the Internet that is really OTM. Also I've benefitted plenty from sexism, on purpose and unconsciously, I think probably everybody has. I can't judge other women for doing the same - I blame the patriarchy.

In retrospect if I even made him think just a little bit, it was probably worth it. He kept describing dumb dudes who get butthurt easily as "girls" and I corrected him to "babies" a couple of times, and my friend said, "You should appreciate how gentle she's being with you right now" and I was like "I'm just offering him an alternative to his regrettable word choice, so when he realizes he regrets it, he'll have another option." So mad.

when you say "benefited from sexism" what kinds of things are you talking about? I'm trying to think of how I've benefited from it -- apart from like, not always having to carry heavy objects, or not getting punched when i tell off some crazy dude.

occasionally i will let a man pay for me on a date, which is not very feminist of me and brings up all kinds of weird issues (does this person now feel like they are owed sex?) but i feel like it's justifiable to based on the wage gap and the fact that i foot the sexual health bill 99% of the time (birth control, visits to obgyn, treatment for the many things that can go wrong that aren't a problem for people with genitals on the outside of the body, etc.) so it's kind of a draw, i guess (i still offer to pay always).

the only times in recent memory that guys have paid for my food/drinks were:

1. on my birthday
2. lunch w/a male friend i was giving tax advice
3. lunch w/my ex-bf

catching up . . .

btw Sarah the lipstain/card were mailed today :)

It's not really about that, I'm pretty sure, although the most common & accepted patriarchal bargain is probably the one in which women trade their fertility, sexuality, domestic work, personal assets, and emotional support for men's improved economic status, WHEN the exchange is primarily transactional.

Here.

Half the moronic male managers here have no idea how to interact with me because I have actual conversations & dont flirt in the office at all. I found out through a co-worket one manager was "scared" of me. As far as I know it's because I have politely disagreed with him in casual conversation. o_O

But there is no WAY i'd ever play the game needed to be accepted by that guy (professionally), or the management in general (90% old male sales execs). I know it hurts my "career" such as it is, but I'd rather be genuine & lower paid than be fake & flirt my way into an office with a window. I should be angrier, I guess, but I'm just glad I like what I do, can speak my mind & be mostly autonomous.

i just feel like i'm atypical - though i'm probably not.

lol - i think i tried to make that patriarchal bargain, but it ended doing a lot for my improved economic/social status, and not as much for his, and the rest is tmi in the 77 break up thread on real ILX.

I just started reading Laura Kipnis’s latest book, “The Female Thing,” and her thesis is similar: That feminism and traditional femininity are at odds with each other, and that compliance with the traditional trappings of femininity only serves to keep women down. I’m not too far into it yet, but in the intro she points out that traditional femininity wasn’t directly put upon women, but created by women themselves as a rational response to their own powerlessness. She argues that, now that women have the same legal rights as men, we’re still choosing to embrace these feminine things, and that feminism has been complicit or even supportive of that embrace. And, in embracing these things, women are complicit in their own oppression.**

Where Kipnis loses me is in her failure to recognize that women embrace the traditionally feminine because it still confers great benefits on us. It even confers benefits on us within the realm of feminist activism — just look at how Gloria Steinem was received as compared to, say, Kate Millett. Ridiculous and unfair? Yes. But no one has ever told me that I’m only a feminist because I can’t snag a man.

From here.

i don't really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally.

maybe (probably) i am one of those annoying happy friendly people you were referring to upthread? who knows. sometimes i get mad, and when i do i say something. the other times i go into teacher mode and try to illustrate a better way to be.

Yes. I think I am probably pretty similar to you in that respect.

Although I'm not that happy/friendly all the time. Maybe like 70%.

i don't really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally

In fact, I used to be a lot angrier but years ago realized that it was doing me a lot more bad than good on a personal level and decided to let go of some of it. In general but also in respect to the topic at hand. That's sort of what I was getting at earlier.

Also Jenny I'm sorry if I came off as ultra defensive and rude earlier. Obv a sensitive topic for me.

well no one is happy or friendly ALL the time

lol, I know! I was kidding about the 70%. I can get as grumpy anyone but I think I'm happier/friendly more so than not and if I'm angry or upset at something those emotions are directed at that particular thing/person in particular. Usually.

okay so i finally put my profile pics and background on okc on friday night and as of today i have two dates
this thing may actually work

I was being sensitive, too! Angry, bitter, threatened are loaded words in this context so my first two thoughts were, roughly, "OMG! Battle stations!" and then "That's ENBB, I have to be reading this wrong."

A way in which I benefitted from sexism: hanging out with dudes and when they talked shit about various women for being sluts or prudes or too high maintenance or slovenly or too fat or always on a diet or being girly and shallow or manly and dykish, I would join in to differentiate myself from these other, inferior women and so keep these dudes from turning their criticisms on me. This was largely in high school/college but I retained tendencies to act like one of the guys because that tended to draw praise from dudes until law school when I made some brash, irrverant (I thought) comment about "What's wrong? Does your pussy hurt?" to a male classmate and my still good friend Emily was like "What the fuck is wrong with you?" causing me to reexamine my behavior.

I still cringe in embarrassment to think of that, but I appreciated the call out.

jenny that was me too

i've also been there, and also cringe at it.

Oh, here is a link that is relevant to some previous discussions: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/12/impossibly-beautiful.html

Well, for one instance: You know the way men say, "Smile, beautiful" and in that and other ways try to make you interact with them as a happier/more agreeable person than you feel like? When that happens to her, she thinks, "That was nice of that strange man, he wants me to have a better day. I guess now I *do* feel like smiling!"

No offense to anyone but I can't imagine anyone reacting this way? Unless maybe James Franco said it? And then only maybe? Any time some strange dude tells me to smile it's GLOWER CITY, sir.

For reals. I swear.

ENBB, the friend of mine that he's dating is sort of like you, in that respect: She never thought about it, because she never noticed anyone abridging her rights, because she just did what she wanted, cheerfully, anyway, and thought, aww wasn't it nice of that person to look out for me? Meanwhile hypothetical possibly-lechy older guy or whomever is left in her wake feeling lucky that she smiled at him so glowingly and asked for his help.

O_o

― Making like Melusine (Pyth), Monday, December 5, 2011 1:49 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink

I'm still sort of bewildered by this one. I guess maybe I'm imagining her asking for directions or something and just really don't see many man thinking that way? Or, I mean if they did think that I don't really see how it's that bad? If an attractive/nice guy smiled broadly at me in a similar situation I would probably feel good about it too?