Sandbox Romants: Wooing and Problems

Remy and Aim: do you seriously want to argue that there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men? And that this expectation for women extends to how women are, in general, expected to react to wooing?

Maybe I'm not grokking where everyone is coming from here because I'm really surprised at both or you.

Dude. We are having a miscommunication. Let me try to draw a parallel.

I make this statement: "Men are socialized to hide their emotions."

What this means is that there is pressure in our society for men to hide their emotions, not cry in public, etc etc. This does not mean that no men cry or that men who cry are poorly socialized.

So when I say women are socialized to be compliant, I mean that there is pressure in our society for women to be agreeable or at least say no gently. One example: women who are not compliant are called bitches or harridans. This does not mean that all women are agreeable or that disagreeable women are poorly socialized.

Now, if you disagree that that such societal pressure exists, that's a different conversation.

i want to go back to giving unsolicited dating advice :(

Jesus McKinnon Christ. Saying that women face a particular pressure does not mean that men don't also face a similar pressure. That is a massive logical fallacy.

It might also be worth noting that the ppl in this thread who are saying "yes this pressure exists in a way that is specifically targeted at women" ARE WOMEN and the ppl saying "What? No! That doesn't happen" are men. Who do you suppose has more firsthand experience with this phenomenon?

Pyth, I understand that a certain amount of social pressure is placed on women to avoid social friction and that this pressure can sometimes include pressure to avoid friction through self-abnegation, but saying that is, imo, a far cry from what thejenny said.

But I don't see this as the social norm and I can't recall it ever being a general rule in my lifetime. I wasn't alive in 1900, but I can tell you that a substantial number of the women I've known had no trouble standing up fior themselves.

... as thejenny is doi9ng this moment.

You are making my head hurt.

It's gotten a lot better in the last few decades, but the pressure is still there.

I don't know, Christine. Aimless says it isn't and I'm arguing with him so… That's infallible logic.

Aimless, Remy, I am being sarcastic in my previous post, FYI.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome. As for the claim I said that it is non-existant, I could quote myself back at you, if you think that's necessary.

you know what improved my ilxing 100%? staying away from gender stuff.

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

You know one of the things rrrobyn is awesome at? Saying she doesn't like something and asking someone to change it, firmly, without either escalating the situation or apologizing for her request or her personal needs. And the fact that I think it's kind of amazing should tell you that ime is it not a common skill, this freedom that she feels to have needs and ask people to meet them.

I have a feeling LL may also excel at this, but I haven't personally seen it in action so I can't speak for her necessarily

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

OTM x ∞

and also

wishing i could suggest ban j0n arbubckle right now

it really isn't a common skill, when friends of mine can do this i always which day i missed at school.

when they do it gracefully i wonder if i didn't miss a whole month

I am pretty good at that. Could always use some improvement in the tone department, I'm sure, but who doesn't.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome.

I disagree with this entirely.

I think it's still very much a social norm and while I'm sure it's somewhat easier to overcome now than it was decades ago I think you're making it sound far easier than it really is.

Also I only read like the last 10 posts here so I might be missing something.

ehh, i was going to explain what i meant, which was partly due to cross-conversiational confusion, and partly not, but i'm afraid i'm gonna be called out for mansplaining or have somebody else snap at me. so, suffice to say, i'm bummed at the way this conversation went and feel like i'm gonna, yeah, back down feel like any actual honest point i might have made because it's just gonna get snarked at anyway.

aw shit, I'll make one last observation before the last person tunes me out entirely. I propose that each of the women who think I am full of crap because I can't have a valid opinion on this to reflect a moment.

First ask yourself: do I find myself sometimes thinking 'no', but couching my response in vague terms in order to be more pleasant? I'm pretty sure every one of you will answer: yes, I do this.

Next, ask yourself: do I find myself going along with what someone else wants, even when I know the result of doing so is going to make me unhappy, distressed or dissatisfied? My guess is that, once there are real emotional chips in the pot, most of you (not all, perhaps) will find a way to overcome that socialization and seek what you need, even at the risk of unpleasantness.

If I am correct, then this bogeyman of socialization is really not so very bad, because it mostly kicks in when the stakes don't matter. When they do, you blow right by it and come to grips with the situation.

Feel free to tell me I am wrong in this, but that is what I observe to be true. Even though I am, sadly, ill-equipped.

Now I'm done. (zips lips)

there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men?

Era, culture, religion, language, region and class, pls?

Also, Aimless lives in Portland. Results may vary in other areas/ages/socio-economic strata than yours

Ppl like this do things like that (mostly)

caveat emptor, etc...

Anyway...I'm still too nervous to date in this college town after my last bad experience. I started writing to my long-distance crush again. She wrote a brief reply indicating that she doesn't hate me. I guess that counts as a victory. Work and school are going so well right now, I feel like I may be happy to continue concentrating on that. But I long for affection.

If I am correct, then this bogeyman of socialization is really not so very bad, because it mostly kicks in when the stakes don't matter. When they do, you blow right by it and come to grips with the situation.

This is completely not true at all in my life, or the lives of women I have witnessed/heard from. The plural of stories people tell me is not anec-data, yes I know, but I feel you are enormously overstating the equality of these kinds of pressures and understating the cost to women.

La condition humaine

Break a proverbial leg, Monsieur Farmer

Aimless points to my willingness to argue wih him as proof that I exaggerate the pressure on women to be compliant. Remy characterizes this same argument as snapping and snark.

Interesting.

thejenny, you were being snappy and snarky. to wit:

Aimless, Remy, I am being sarcastic in my previous post, FYI.

― thejenny, Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:44 PM (45 minutes ago)

no harm/no foul, I don't even really care, and I'm getting out of this conversation from here on out. But please don't string me up for a point I never made. Interesting, my eye.

I mean right here on this thread you have frogsbs exhibiting exactly what I think jenny and I are *both* talking about, when he says "most good women have a sixth sense about avoiding hurting anyone's feelings"!!! How are we even reading the same thread and you (plural) don't seem to be picking up on that at all?! Frogs is a shocking retrograde, I admit, and possibly x% trolling at all times, but I still think he's not un-representative of what some people think.

I think I might add Confidence Building to my seminar/workshop repertoire

Why are you nervous Mr Farmer?

Frogs is possibly a (hardly) shocking retrograde and (per the the thread designation) end up wooing the women he deserves.

He's married. If that is, in fact, him.

not convinced that frogbs is frogbs tbph

Well, he's done his wooing then...

xpost

xp - I was more certain earlier. I have a back-up in mind if it turns out not to be frogs.

Hey Pyth, what're you doing Saturday? ;)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3289/2968815250_37ce96cb59_b.jpg

helLOO where can i find a Real Man?

Jon Arbuckle what a limp penis!

Painting woodwork and seeing a married friend, in fact!

I thought about saying yes to the daet tonight but you know, it was giving me the anxiety and meant rearranging my schedule and just, no. I shouldn't start out by agreeing to things that make me unhappy, even if it makes me uncomfortable to define that boundary.

Why are you nervous Mr Farmer?
I live in a fishbowl college town and my last dating experience was a disaster. Also, I have very strong feelings for someone who lives 1000 miles away, who I've seen twice in the last eleven months, and I don't have the resources to increase that number. But I can't let go! Sorry, I'm listening to George Michael right now.

guilty feet have got no rhythm

George Michael!

this thread has turned into a shining example of how men are socialized to think they are right all the time and talk over the people, amirite?

:)

no man is ever "Right" enough for me!

I just nuked a kind of hilarous 600 word post on the grounds that somebody might get mad at me. i'm not even good at arguing about gender - i fail at man 101

Painting woodwork and seeing a married friend, in fact!

Lame Melusine reference, sorry

I shouldn't start out by agreeing to things that make me unhappy

Don't be a coward but don't waste anybody's time, either. If you're vaguely interested but not for tonight, don't go; you wouldn't be doing either of you a favor.