Sandbox Romants: Wooing and Problems

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

Also, I have been kind enough to give my parents perfectly adorable grand-cats for years now and if that's not enough, I'm not sure what they'd think of any human grandchildren I might sire.

My mother's not happy with me for not having children, but she doesn't talk about it much. (My sister has three and my brother has two. Three of them are married--all of my grandnieces and grandnephews are in their mid to late twenties--so she should even have great-grandchildren before she dies.)

I'm from a cadet branch so I really don't see the need. ;)

yes, i have produced a lovely grand-cat that my mother dotes upon with fancy cat food from wholefoods.

Wow. My mother actually refers to our dogs as her granddogs.

i kinda feel that the concept of marriage as a whole is probably on the outs anyway, anyone who seriously says "you're in your 30's, why aren't you married yet?" is almost definitely a sitcom character written by someone with a 1950's view of marriage

Or an older family member.

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

i agree with this! i didn't mind it until the aunt came in w/her kid. probably because i've found her horribly condescending my own childhood.

Or a features editor at a women's magazine.

xp unless it applies to your aunt.

also the idea that i can't be considered an adult until i am married really bugs

My stepdad's family is 100% "girls aren't grown until they are married" and when I was in my late 20s, unmarried, and relegated to the kids' table, my mom threw a shit fit on my behalf, which I've always appreciated even though she was perpetrator #1 of the "when are you going to get married???!?????" pressure. (I chalk a little of that up to her just wanting me to settle down (as in quit being an irresponsible drunkard) and assuming that marriage was the only way than her necessarily believing I was an incomplete person when single.)

For clarification, I was referring to the way women are socialized to be compliant and not say no or hurt people's feelings

i was with you until this...

You were with me until I restated what I meant in one sentence? So you disagree with me? Or should I keep guessing here?

xp Yeah. Anyone who tries to speak about all women cannot be thinking very clearly. Lack of qualifiers is a boo-boo.

I… identifying an existing societal pressure is not the same as saying all women are a certain way? And I never said that?

we're constantly badgered about getting married- almost exclusively from wives/girlfriends of my friends (though i get it at work from the matronly members of staff too). Sometimes it's like a frenzy in group settings.

"Women are complaint and never say no or hurt people's feelings." (not what I said)

vs

"Women are socialized to be complaint and not say no or hurt people's feelings." (what I said)

So a woman who says 'no' when she doesn't want something is not very well-socialized, I suppose.

All of the women I met in my early twenties were happy with me for not wanting children, but they all figured that I didn't want them because I didn't want them Growing Up In A World With War, Pestilence, And Bill Clinton Getting Blowjobs From His Staffers. Phooey.

Is the sandbox making everyone bizarro?? Aimless, who in the world ever said that? Also you're combining/mixing up meanings of "socialized", and you know it.

i just think you're overgeneralizing a bit, jenny. it's not "women are socialized to be compliant" it's more "lots of people are generalized to be compliant, many of them women"

Remy and Aim: do you seriously want to argue that there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men? And that this expectation for women extends to how women are, in general, expected to react to wooing?

Maybe I'm not grokking where everyone is coming from here because I'm really surprised at both or you.

Dude. We are having a miscommunication. Let me try to draw a parallel.

I make this statement: "Men are socialized to hide their emotions."

What this means is that there is pressure in our society for men to hide their emotions, not cry in public, etc etc. This does not mean that no men cry or that men who cry are poorly socialized.

So when I say women are socialized to be compliant, I mean that there is pressure in our society for women to be agreeable or at least say no gently. One example: women who are not compliant are called bitches or harridans. This does not mean that all women are agreeable or that disagreeable women are poorly socialized.

Now, if you disagree that that such societal pressure exists, that's a different conversation.

i want to go back to giving unsolicited dating advice :(

Jesus McKinnon Christ. Saying that women face a particular pressure does not mean that men don't also face a similar pressure. That is a massive logical fallacy.

It might also be worth noting that the ppl in this thread who are saying "yes this pressure exists in a way that is specifically targeted at women" ARE WOMEN and the ppl saying "What? No! That doesn't happen" are men. Who do you suppose has more firsthand experience with this phenomenon?

Pyth, I understand that a certain amount of social pressure is placed on women to avoid social friction and that this pressure can sometimes include pressure to avoid friction through self-abnegation, but saying that is, imo, a far cry from what thejenny said.

But I don't see this as the social norm and I can't recall it ever being a general rule in my lifetime. I wasn't alive in 1900, but I can tell you that a substantial number of the women I've known had no trouble standing up fior themselves.

... as thejenny is doi9ng this moment.

You are making my head hurt.

It's gotten a lot better in the last few decades, but the pressure is still there.

I don't know, Christine. Aimless says it isn't and I'm arguing with him so… That's infallible logic.

Aimless, Remy, I am being sarcastic in my previous post, FYI.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome. As for the claim I said that it is non-existant, I could quote myself back at you, if you think that's necessary.

you know what improved my ilxing 100%? staying away from gender stuff.

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

You know one of the things rrrobyn is awesome at? Saying she doesn't like something and asking someone to change it, firmly, without either escalating the situation or apologizing for her request or her personal needs. And the fact that I think it's kind of amazing should tell you that ime is it not a common skill, this freedom that she feels to have needs and ask people to meet them.

I have a feeling LL may also excel at this, but I haven't personally seen it in action so I can't speak for her necessarily

HEY WOMEN, LET ME MANSPLAIN THIS FOR YOU...

OTM x ∞

and also

wishing i could suggest ban j0n arbubckle right now

it really isn't a common skill, when friends of mine can do this i always which day i missed at school.

when they do it gracefully i wonder if i didn't miss a whole month

I am pretty good at that. Could always use some improvement in the tone department, I'm sure, but who doesn't.

My point is that the socialization is much less strong than you have portrayed it, and that although it may have qualified as a social norm in the past, it is not a norm at present, but a fading influence that is increasingly easy to overcome.

I disagree with this entirely.

I think it's still very much a social norm and while I'm sure it's somewhat easier to overcome now than it was decades ago I think you're making it sound far easier than it really is.

Also I only read like the last 10 posts here so I might be missing something.

ehh, i was going to explain what i meant, which was partly due to cross-conversiational confusion, and partly not, but i'm afraid i'm gonna be called out for mansplaining or have somebody else snap at me. so, suffice to say, i'm bummed at the way this conversation went and feel like i'm gonna, yeah, back down feel like any actual honest point i might have made because it's just gonna get snarked at anyway.

aw shit, I'll make one last observation before the last person tunes me out entirely. I propose that each of the women who think I am full of crap because I can't have a valid opinion on this to reflect a moment.

First ask yourself: do I find myself sometimes thinking 'no', but couching my response in vague terms in order to be more pleasant? I'm pretty sure every one of you will answer: yes, I do this.

Next, ask yourself: do I find myself going along with what someone else wants, even when I know the result of doing so is going to make me unhappy, distressed or dissatisfied? My guess is that, once there are real emotional chips in the pot, most of you (not all, perhaps) will find a way to overcome that socialization and seek what you need, even at the risk of unpleasantness.

If I am correct, then this bogeyman of socialization is really not so very bad, because it mostly kicks in when the stakes don't matter. When they do, you blow right by it and come to grips with the situation.

Feel free to tell me I am wrong in this, but that is what I observe to be true. Even though I am, sadly, ill-equipped.

Now I'm done. (zips lips)

there is not a social norm for women that involves being agreeable and helpful and accommodating to others more than is expected for men?

Era, culture, religion, language, region and class, pls?

Also, Aimless lives in Portland. Results may vary in other areas/ages/socio-economic strata than yours

Ppl like this do things like that (mostly)

caveat emptor, etc...

Anyway...I'm still too nervous to date in this college town after my last bad experience. I started writing to my long-distance crush again. She wrote a brief reply indicating that she doesn't hate me. I guess that counts as a victory. Work and school are going so well right now, I feel like I may be happy to continue concentrating on that. But I long for affection.