Sandbox Romants: Wooing and Problems

I'd say historically men have asked women out on dates more than the converse. Many women, for a variety of reasons, didn't wish to respond that they weren't at all interested, if only to spare the guy's feelings. They had to 'wash their hair'. Clever guys got it and were grateful for the gesture. Dense ones didn't but were equally spared. Guys in similar situations often do the same thing. "Hey, wanna join the guys and get some beers and play pool?" "Nah, man, I gotta wash my hair." "Wtf, bro?"

but there's def a perceived burden on wimmens to give dudes a chance even if they're not very, or at all, interested.

I've never seen it, personally, but then I wouldn't want ot go on a date w/anyone who wouldn't want to go w/me anyway so I always took a polite 'no' perfectly in stride and usually treated anything less than an enthusiastic 'yes' as highly improbable and better not to pursue.

i didnt really have a point at all, its just that saying there some implied idea that women can't say no to whatever is such bullshit, most good women have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding hurting anyone's feelings and that's really all there is to it. (some men have it too)

remember when we were talking about the Kate B0lick article in The Atlantic last month? I liked a lot of it because I like articles with a lot of historical research, but it was irking me a lot too, the more I thought about it - like, I felt it wasn't actually about me but about a more mythical, or perhaps just tv-like, "30-40-something women" - the whole thing just left me feeling unsettled in a non-helpful way. anyway, i thought this was a good response: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/29/single-women-an-american-obsession?

most good women have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding hurting anyone's feelings

Is this...are you doing this on purpose?

Are you frogbs?

It's not a sixth sense, it's taught and frankly I wish it were taught to more boys.

either way. you know what I mean. sorry if I hurt your feelings.

My feelings are the least of your problems (and they're uninjured, thanks).

sorry if I hurt your feelings.

bet you wish you were a good woman now.

boy, do I. someday we'll live in a classless society. until then, I'll sit in the corner.

why dont you post what you really feel, Pyth. get it all out in the open

For clarification, I was referring to the way women are socialized to be compliant and not say no or hurt people's feelings. If you want a workplace parallel, women's tendency to accept lowball salary offers insead of negotiating for higher pay seems more apt (because it is part of the socialized compliance thing, not because women are innately incapable of salary negotiations).

I am actually engaged in an email convo with a lady friend who is ginning up the courage to call and cancel her cable because she knows they are going to give her the hard sell and she's afraid she won't be able to say no to the $200/month package. (tbf she is an extreme example and Comcast is a three-headed dragon of pressure.)

wishing i could suggest ban j0n arbubckle right now

otm

I hate saying no/hurting ppl's feelings

I think its way more "women are socialized to be able to say no to something without hurting anyone's feelings" rather than them being socialized to not say no, period

Perhaps, though that is often a distinction w/out a difference.

I mean, I'm a guy and I've been asked out by people that I don't really like and my natural instinct is to give them the runaround rather than flat out deny them, I don't think it's objectionable to say that women are generally better at that kind of stuff

I like that CiF response to the Kate B0lick article!

I felt it wasn't actually about me but about a more mythical, or perhaps just tv-like, "30-40-something women"

this encapsulates my problem with it really well! I understood and recognised and was sympathetic to the situation in it, because I'm familiar with it from media, but... i sort of can't believe in it, at the same time? I have seen a lot of tv programmes in which mothers are all 'did you know [foo] has two children now, when are you going to meet a nice boy/girl and settle down' but I have never met a person who's said their mother says that. sometimes my mother says 'i met [bar]'s mother the other day, did you know [bar] has two kids now' and i say 'jesus, already?' and my mother says 'it's not really that unusual, dear', but... that's about as far as it goes.

i guess i feel like articles/tv shows/other media in which women are still concerned with finding someone "marriageable" (beyond, like, 'not abusive' and 'has mutual feelings about you', which i like to think are minimums) reinforce the idea that this v limited idea of "marriageability" is/has been/remains a normal concept? even when the ostensible message of the article is "let's change our ideas about marriage and 'marriageability'"?

I meet women w/some desperate need to validate their life through timely marriage and optimal wedding far, far too much.

ditto.

i never do! i mean, i meet people who want to ~get married~, sure, but this kind of rom-com mindset, no. unless they're all too afraid of offending me to say it?

I even had one say to me, "Oh, you're divorced? Well, at least you got married." I backed out of that conversation very soon afterwards.

Maybe I should go into the consulting business teaching people how to say no. I'm really really good at it!

My workshops will start with the beginning intro to to the Human Beinz "Nobody But Me"
and then I prance onstage and teach everyone how to say no by offering them outrageous things and having them practice their no skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtJoGdujYo

I'm really really good at it!

I've said this before but I learned how to say no politely but firmly from a French lady. It's quite liberating.

See even though I've tried not to be, the joke's on me and I am totally one of those women, only it has stealth-neurosis powers and didn't spring until a couple of years ago and then SURPRISE!

So I p much took the B0lick article at face-value where perhaps I shouldn't have; I'm glad to have this counterpoint. Thanks, rrrob!

LL: Would attend all sessions of that class, with pressures increasing from "Would you like to clean rat's cages for minimum wage on Mars?" to "If you were a good woman, you would know that your behavior is inappropriate and I expect you to change that if you really love me." That would be the advanced skill level, presumably.

I expect you to change that if you really love me

LOL/sad

I meet women w/some desperate need to validate their life through timely marriage and optimal wedding far, far too much.

― M. White, Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:41 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

as a single woman in her 30s i have people (male and female) project this desire on me all the time and it really angers me.

i don't have any desire for marriage or children. at all. but people are completely clouded by the fact that is what i am supposed to want and don't listen to the actual words that come out of my mouth on this subject.

I'm sorry, did you say something?

<3 <3 <3

Exactly, Laurel -- first you refuse things that are easy to refuse (would you like to smell my foot? would you like a bite of this heavily mayonnaised chipped ham sandwich with mold on it?), and it gets more and more challenging based on the questionnaire you filled out at the beginning of the seminar.

To be fair, I also have no trouble agreeing to things and am not a negative person at all -- in fact, I'm pretty game, for the most part! I just feel very little pressure to acquiesce when I don't wish to do something, either in the work sphere or the personal sphere. If I do acquiesce after refusing initially it's because I probably didn't really want to say no in the first place ;)

at thanksgiving, me and my cousins (all in our early 30s) were actually seated at the kids table, in an entirely diff room. my aunt dropped her 7 year old kid off with us, saying 'ok, mommy's going to go hang out with the adults now'. when getting more food, my cousin reported that the "adults" were saying that we gotta start having kids soon.

i'm in the same boat as you, b_g, and i fear i'll be seated at the kids table till i'm 60!

It's fine to want to be married. It's fine to want kids. It's the neurotic desire to do it willy-nilly like it will 'fix' your life that freaks me out. As if not keeping up with the Joneses or not landing any husband, regardless of your long-term compatability, is some freakish loser thing to do. If the Joneses are your standard, you've lost already and marrying fools isn't exactly some rare achievement.

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

Also, I have been kind enough to give my parents perfectly adorable grand-cats for years now and if that's not enough, I'm not sure what they'd think of any human grandchildren I might sire.

My mother's not happy with me for not having children, but she doesn't talk about it much. (My sister has three and my brother has two. Three of them are married--all of my grandnieces and grandnephews are in their mid to late twenties--so she should even have great-grandchildren before she dies.)

I'm from a cadet branch so I really don't see the need. ;)

yes, i have produced a lovely grand-cat that my mother dotes upon with fancy cat food from wholefoods.

Wow. My mother actually refers to our dogs as her granddogs.

i kinda feel that the concept of marriage as a whole is probably on the outs anyway, anyone who seriously says "you're in your 30's, why aren't you married yet?" is almost definitely a sitcom character written by someone with a 1950's view of marriage

Or an older family member.

I'm perfectly fine with the kids table; they still have to serve me wine and I have less competition for th bottle. Plus the conversation isn't as inane.

i agree with this! i didn't mind it until the aunt came in w/her kid. probably because i've found her horribly condescending my own childhood.

Or a features editor at a women's magazine.

xp unless it applies to your aunt.

also the idea that i can't be considered an adult until i am married really bugs

My stepdad's family is 100% "girls aren't grown until they are married" and when I was in my late 20s, unmarried, and relegated to the kids' table, my mom threw a shit fit on my behalf, which I've always appreciated even though she was perpetrator #1 of the "when are you going to get married???!?????" pressure. (I chalk a little of that up to her just wanting me to settle down (as in quit being an irresponsible drunkard) and assuming that marriage was the only way than her necessarily believing I was an incomplete person when single.)

For clarification, I was referring to the way women are socialized to be compliant and not say no or hurt people's feelings

i was with you until this...

grats

o less grats more oof, what with she's leaving forever in 6 weeks

problem in six weeks

My long distance crush has proposed a visit to my place while she takes a long holiday break!
Trying to make this work. It all seems pretty good right now but I feel like the rest of the winter after her visit is gonna be difficult.

How did this work out?

I feel ya. I'm in a similar sitch with someone 450 miles away. I think long distance relationships can work when there's a set time that you have to be apart - one year in your case - after which you can be together. But my long-distance crush (much more than a crush actually) won't be able to move anytime in the forseeable future. We're contemplating whether I should uproot myself so we can be together. It's scary; if it doesn't work out I'll be left in an unfamiliar place with nothing.

Is it someplace you would be OK living?

Met a few friends at the bar who were there for a mini-reunion of their fellow drama nerds. Erin told me I should hit on one who'd gone to school with me (Meagan), but I thought she was doing her usual encourage-me-to-hit-on-everyone thing, so I hung out for a bit and then encouraged my friends to relocate to a less-depressing (non-karaoke) spot. And as I'm paying out my tab, Meagan taps me on the shoulder and we start talking and flirting for quite a while - all the while my friends are out of her line of sight giving me shit, and then decide to remind me that we'd all agreed to leave. I didn't even think to get her number, I was so distracted by them making asses of themselves, but we're Facebook friends now at least.

At the other bar I was the object of much scorn for cockblocking myself by not immediately talking to her when told to.

EEIS - Still waiting on her visit, can't come soon enough.
There's no certainty that we'll be able to be together after a year, either. It's all very much up in the air. I just know that she's exactly what I am looking for. Rather, the feeling I have when I am with her is what I am looking for. She had a bad year (finance-wise) where she is right now. That seems like a good sign that we may be able to somehow relocate someplace together once the opportunity arises. No way to know for sure.

This sort of thing comes in waves, huh? After seeming tentative about it before, my long-distance work crush has apparently made some time for me to visit in a couple of months. Trouble is even if anything comes of it, she has no idea where she'll land, work-wise, and neither do I. :(

So the beautiful girl mentioned on NY Eve thread has finally replied, which resolves some of the angst but the content of the reply is not exactly what I would like. Beggars can't be choosers?

Anyway, to provide slightly more context (and before I start this might sound like bragging but for tmi reasons, it's very much not) I did actually go home with this girl, and she is a whole lot more than just beautiful, and we got on really well and everything I learned about her between midnight and 9am on Friday wowed the fuck out of me. I'm aware that can still only be so much and I'm sure she's not perfect and I also know better than to pedestalise her. (She also has the same name as my recently deceased cat. Is that weird?)

Still, in her reply she says that her picking me up in the bar and taking me home was out of character because of a recently(ish) ended ltr and she doesn't think it's a good idea to start dating again - in my message I had asked her if she would like to go on a proper date. Given that she mentioned she has dated since the end of that relationship this may well be her letting me down easy in a respectful way but I understand that hadn't gone well and I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I know I should probably, respectfully, just let it go but is there alternate option or opinion out there?

No-one I live with is up to discuss this with, so ilx, please do yer worst.

are there other options btwn 'start properly dating' and 'never seeing each other again' iyho

She isn't explicitly offering any but I'd certainly take them if there were. Not sure if I should suggest the hanging out and getting to know each other as friends with clear, delineated boundaries etc, if that's even a real thing, if it is how I'd go about mentioning it and if doing so would just be opening myself up to more potential angst.

Haven't actually been angsty like I was earlier for years. it's shit.

i was probably thinking more along the lines of friends with possible view to dating, tbh- i'd agree that a clearly staked-out 'just friends' option wouldn't be likely to help you with the girl problem tbph.

kind of 'start not-properly dating' or s/t

Do people do that? Is it something someone who doesn't want to date might be receptive to w/ someone who has clearly expressed a desire to date? (tbqh I'd probably be willing to skip the dating bit entirely but I'm an idiot like that)

well, i mean if she doesn't want to 'date' then how might she feel about you two just seeing each other

this is the problem with ppl letting ppl down gently, ime- if she's not interested romantically you'd be a sight better off knowing that, possibly in writing so's you could remind yrself in moments of weakness.

i dunno what you mean by skipping the dating bit but if you're thinkin about proposing my advice is to leave it just yet

Yeah, not quite. I may live two minutes from LJ but we haven't hung out enough for him to have influenced me that much. That says she does own a lovely flat in a very convenient location...

I guess I just take the chance? Totally agree about the letting down gently thing btw. You never really know someone well enough to be sure that's not what they're doing.

Neither one of us is around for the next couple of weeks - she to Burma, me skiing - so could just fizzle out anyway by the time we can see each other anyway. Hope not though.

i dunno, but, it seems to me that if you've already hooked up sexually, esp. as strangers, then it's kinda like the theory about the development of nuclear weapons re: warfare -- there's no going back to a pre-nuke world

ugh burma and skiing ffs why don't you just get richard curtis to direct you into each others arms after 90 minutes of lukewarm angst

not much in my court to report on. after the near miss relationship with my friend and subsequent drifting last May, I haven't really met anybody. That and my social anxiety, which comes and goes, hit me full force for about the last four months, where I am now at the point that I have difficulty even making eye contact with people, even friends and family.

I'm optimistic though. These things in my life have a way of finding me when I'm not really looking for them or don't expect them. It would be nice though if the next person I meet is in the same place I am--seems like anytime I'm looking for a serious relationship, the people I meet aren't, or vice versa (see my last girlfriend, who broke up with me, then got upset that I wasn't "upset enough" after the breakup).

Also hate to throw this into the theory, but alcohol has been involved in the genesis of every one of my relationships. Not being drunk, but enough to break down my walls long enough to actually connect with someone. Ever since I've cut back on drinking, I've had to find other ways of getting centered!

The other night I talked to a friend who I thought blew me off last summer, and it turns out he was having minor personal ish and knew he was messing up and has felt bad about it since. I got a full apology and he asked my permission to call me again sometime. Vindication is sweet!

^_^