DREAMGIRLS

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I'm not saying it's unheard of, I'm saying it's not what most opera singing is about. It is what most American Idol-singing is about.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:15 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe it was la clemenza di Tito Jackson?

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:16 (seventeen years ago) link

FFS, I've already given you scope (baroque/bel canto and practical example/application (for another, some of these same people were in a productioin of Handel's "Orlando" where, for a climactic all-female, trio, they wrote their own a capella candenza that really tore down the roof, plus I have the example of my wife, who is working in the field and has several different variants of ornamentation that she does for all of her baroque arias, some of which are tried-and-true standards, some of which are things she came up with along with her coaches, and some of which are a mix of the two. She does this for every baroque aria she has. A good "Messiah" performance will feature crazty ornamentation on all of the repeats of the main themes in the arias (I have another friend who does "Rejoice greatly" where the second time around every run is made up of 32nd notes instead of 16th notes; she is also based in New York so again: not just Boston)).

I do actually know what I'm talking about sometimes, as shocking as that may seem. And the point you are continually getting hung up on is a natural result of the evolution of a musical form moreso than anything else; let's see what pop R&B is like 200 years from now and see how codified things are. Hell, people ALREADY try to mimic Mariah, Whitney, Aretha, Diana, Minnie, Jennifer Holliday, et al note-for-note and we're only looking (in some cases) a remove of less than a year!

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:20 (seventeen years ago) link

: D

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan's righteous badassness on these points always makes me happy. And reminds me of what I need to learn still!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:27 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah dude, I know you know what you're talking about and a lot more than I do; I'm trying to test my impression against your knowledge at the same time as I think you might not be entirely objective on your favorite stuff (I'm not either).

also, at least 2 of the 6 on your list are operatically-trained, no? (I also forgive mariah her postmod melisma cuz she's so 'free-spirited')

dood even I wouldn't argue with Dan about this stuff

yeah dood, but I don't think you saw Parsifal in the womb or sang the Verdi Requiem in high school either

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:28 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't understand what mileage you're getting out of the supposed distinction between operatic melisma and pop melisma anyway, gabbneb.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:30 (seventeen years ago) link

the point I was making is that even if Dan is right that operatic improvisation is not unheard of, most melisma in opera is not improvisational and does not signify the way that pop melisma does

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:32 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, but even if that's true, how is it relevant?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

how was your point that 'opera singers employ melisma' relevant?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I brought it up because I thought discussing melisma in the abstract was sort of silly, and that opera seemed different enough to me from what Hudson does to prove that point! (I appear to be wrong about that; Dan's posts have been really informative.) because I understood the thread to be taking a god, I hate melisma turn. which still seems silly to me!

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i'll try to restate this. many people hate melisma in pop music because it strikes them as essentially fake emotion. melisma in pop signifies emotion, frequently. in opera, it does so far less frequently (and even when it does, the singer is explicitly playing a role and has no claim on personal authenticity). therefore, the existence of melisma in opera, assuming you even like it (which i do), may be irrelevant to why you dislike it in pop music, even leaving apart issues of technical ability and melodic composition quality.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I still disagree with this, largely because the singer in pop music is playing a role just as much as the singer in opera is regardless of the autobigraphical content of the pop singer's material, but that's definitely a more defensible statement of your point.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 01:11 (seventeen years ago) link

You know, this isn't the first Dreamgirls thread that's basically abandoned talking about the film.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:38 (seventeen years ago) link

all this agita reminds me of the CRASH thread of last year - guess that bodes well for Dreamgirls' oscar chances

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:54 (seventeen years ago) link

AAAAAAAHHHHHH II-AHHHHHHHHHHHH
WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOUUUUUUU-OOH-OOOOH-OH-AOUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
ALWAYS LOVE
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

"Emotion" or "showing off"? Only her doctor knows for sure.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

so is this movie at least edited less frantically than Chicago? cuz I couldn't sit through shit like that again.

Sonofagun, Sparkle IS out on disc this week. I'll watch that.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_4932129

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I never saw Chicago, but I think Dreamgirls is edited perfectly.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, Is there a cut every 1.5 seconds?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

no. I don't really think it could be characterized as frenetic.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

There are some gratuitous spinning shots during some of the performances and I missed the "One Night Only (Disco)" section due to an urgent bathroom break so I don't know what happened there. None of what I saw struck me as haphazard or even moderately difficult to follow.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

"One Night Only (Disco)": the dancing is sort of frenetic, but understandably so. the editing is not.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

how long is it?

arrgh, there is no way I'm going to get the boy to go see this with me. I tried to convince him eddie murphy was worth it but no go.

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

two-and-a-half-hours-ish.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

it's way better directed than chicago.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

It's Moulin Rouge that's cut frenetically, not Chicago. (I ended up coming around on Rouge, eventually. I think it's the only generally good movie musical of the '00s.)

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

CRAZY TALK! I could shit a better movie than Moulin Rouge. but yeah, I was picturing Moulin Rouge as the point of comparison when considering whether or not Dreamgirls was cut frenetically.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link

I think it's the only generally good movie musical of the '00s.

I admit I haven't seen Not on the Lips, yet.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

When did Hedwig come out?

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

IM A DRAMGIRL

― chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

ew Hedwig was terrible.

best 90s musical = Velvet Goldmine!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

the best musical of the '90s was 'south park: bigger, longer, and uncut'

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I was gonna say!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh. goddamnit gear, the "ugh" is not for you :(

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

"Though you die, LA RESISTANCE LIVES ONNNNNNNNN..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe I actually sat through Velvet Goldmine. I was trying to keep mum on this thread but that, sir, was a step too far.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

hmmm yeah, the South Park musical is probably the best thing Stone/Parker have ever done

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:57 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost!

Ally doesnt agree with me shockah

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Frenetic isn't the word for Moulin Rouge!'s cutting; pathological perhaps.

Velvet Goldmine's big advantage was that (non-Bowie) glam music wasn't that good to begin with, so the pastiches met the standard.

How does Eddie Murphy's perf score as an audition for Spike Lee's announced James Brown film? He's too old to play him in his 20s but that may not stop it.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:14 (seventeen years ago) link

i loved both Hedwig and the SP movie. I spoiled the latter by getting the soundtrack at the college radio station earlier in the week, and listening to it over and over and playing half of it on my show right before the premiere.

I remember sitting in the theater thinking, "wait, you guys need to not laugh so loud during the songs, you're missing half the jokes!"

― kingfish in absentia (kingfish), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:19 (seventeen years ago) link

(x-post) Pretty good, actually.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons, the pathological cutting being only one of them.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm still a little bitter that my sister didn't let me walk out of Moulin Rouge.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha when someone put on the DVD of it, I figured I'd give it another go. The DVD punked out during the death scene and I was never happier to see a DVD punk out.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons

I could not agree more.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:29 (seventeen years ago) link

C'mon, it's not literally unwatchable because you really can't anticipate what will come flying into the kitchen sink next. (Besides someone else who can't sing.)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is not boring. Chicago and Dreamgirls, for the most part, are.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, getting your eyes gouged out isn't boring either, presumably.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:38 (seventeen years ago) link

i'd like to see a musical of 'hostel', speaking of that.

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

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