DREAMGIRLS

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i remember that as being really shocking at the time!

― giboyojimbo (gbx), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Now that's a Nativity scene.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:37 (seventeen years ago) link

It was a collective acknowledgment of how much we despise stoner girlfriends.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

I probably clapped inside a little when Jackie put a gun to Sam Jackson's crotch and told him "take your hands from 'round my throat, nigga."

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:39 (seventeen years ago) link

in that case i want robert de niro to show up in every kevin smith movie and shoot jay

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:40 (seventeen years ago) link

jackie brown clapping - uhhh

if you don't understand the difference between melisma in pop music and opera...? one is the vocal equivalent of the bent-note, blues-based 'runs' of a guitar solo - a showy improvisation intended to suggest the singer such that heightened emotion compels the singer to vary from the main melody (never mind that such variations appear to be de rigeur to be on tv) - the other is the written melody itself, without note-bending. the latter can be showy, sure, but what it's showing is the composer before the singer, and showiness is not always or even often of a piece with emotion - the singer has to rely more on non-improvisational, non-melodic devices for that purpose. but you weren't suggesting that jennifer hudson get on a stage with anna netrebko, right?

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:43 (seventeen years ago) link

er, suggest ~~the singer such~~ that heightened

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:44 (seventeen years ago) link

no, I was suggesting that making fun of emotionless melismatic performances by "former mickey mouse club members" or whatever is irrelevant to Hudson's performance in Dreamgirls. I think it is sort of silly to dismiss melisma out of hand.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

or maybe I should sub in Deborah Voigt so no one thinks it's a fat joke

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't dismiss melisma out of hand, as I made clear above. It's just very rare that I think it's any good.

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:46 (seventeen years ago) link

so if you want to convince me that Hudson's good, you're probably going to have to be someone who also usually doesn't like it

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Ciara should've played Effie.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:48 (seventeen years ago) link

endless soloing trope of electric guitarists, except that post 70s none of that shit was even remotely popular

...outside of the noise board.

Somebody needs to find an mp3 of Forbidden Broadway's parody "And I Am Telling You, I'm Not Singing" ("I'm screaming, I'm screa-ea-ea-eaming. . .")

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:49 (seventeen years ago) link

in that case i want robert de niro to show up in every kevin smith movie and shoot jay

I will sacrifice a thousand fanboys to let this be true. Or just one Harry Knowles.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:51 (seventeen years ago) link

More so than the AI/Oscar comparison, which I agree is specious (and built on the faulty assumption that Oscars are better than AI), I do think it's neat that the Jackass sequel is a far gayer movie than Dreamgirls.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

So basically you don't understand or know the genesis behind operatic melisma. (Many of those runs weren't in the original scores, especially cadenzas in bel canto singing; they were embellishments the singers added later to show how awesome they were and the best ones have, over time, become codified as "the way to sing it". See also baroque ornamentation.)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 23:57 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, I'm aware of that (and conceded that showiness had something to do with the melody) but is that true of even 10% of the time when someone in an aria sings a syllable over several notes? and how does whether the codified melody was written by the composer or the singer 250+ years ago change the point that an opera singer today does not improvise melodically to express emotion?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Except, of course, that THEY DO, especially when singing bel canto or when ornamenting baroque pieces.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:02 (seventeen years ago) link

and if anyone actually improvises cadenzas today, as opposed to singing traditional ones, that's well outside the norm of operatic singing, no?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

in a staged opera as opposed to a recital?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I just did La clemenza di Tito this fall fully-staged and the three main principals all had at least one aria where they did their own ornamentation as opposed to the "standard" version.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

TOLD.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I just did La clemenza di Tito this fall fully-staged and the three main principals all had at least one aria where they did their own ornamentation as opposed to the "standard" version.

this says nothing about how common it is to do so. would any major company do so in more than an aria or two in a tiny fraction of the operas it does?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(These were all Met Opera vets/up-and-comers so it's not like it's some bizarro only-in-Boston thing.)

xpost: Would you please stop trying to act like this is UNHEARD OF? It isn't. When you get paid to perform this type of stuff, I will start listening to you again.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:13 (seventeen years ago) link

and is encouraging improvisation in cadenzas something that's always been in favor or does it have something to do with the general interest from jazz and new music in inserting improvision, like the choose-your-own-note thing in choral singing?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:14 (seventeen years ago) link

dood even I wouldn't argue with Dan about this stuff

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not saying it's unheard of, I'm saying it's not what most opera singing is about. It is what most American Idol-singing is about.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:15 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe it was la clemenza di Tito Jackson?

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:16 (seventeen years ago) link

FFS, I've already given you scope (baroque/bel canto and practical example/application (for another, some of these same people were in a productioin of Handel's "Orlando" where, for a climactic all-female, trio, they wrote their own a capella candenza that really tore down the roof, plus I have the example of my wife, who is working in the field and has several different variants of ornamentation that she does for all of her baroque arias, some of which are tried-and-true standards, some of which are things she came up with along with her coaches, and some of which are a mix of the two. She does this for every baroque aria she has. A good "Messiah" performance will feature crazty ornamentation on all of the repeats of the main themes in the arias (I have another friend who does "Rejoice greatly" where the second time around every run is made up of 32nd notes instead of 16th notes; she is also based in New York so again: not just Boston)).

I do actually know what I'm talking about sometimes, as shocking as that may seem. And the point you are continually getting hung up on is a natural result of the evolution of a musical form moreso than anything else; let's see what pop R&B is like 200 years from now and see how codified things are. Hell, people ALREADY try to mimic Mariah, Whitney, Aretha, Diana, Minnie, Jennifer Holliday, et al note-for-note and we're only looking (in some cases) a remove of less than a year!

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:20 (seventeen years ago) link

: D

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan's righteous badassness on these points always makes me happy. And reminds me of what I need to learn still!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:27 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah dude, I know you know what you're talking about and a lot more than I do; I'm trying to test my impression against your knowledge at the same time as I think you might not be entirely objective on your favorite stuff (I'm not either).

also, at least 2 of the 6 on your list are operatically-trained, no? (I also forgive mariah her postmod melisma cuz she's so 'free-spirited')

dood even I wouldn't argue with Dan about this stuff

yeah dood, but I don't think you saw Parsifal in the womb or sang the Verdi Requiem in high school either

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:28 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't understand what mileage you're getting out of the supposed distinction between operatic melisma and pop melisma anyway, gabbneb.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:30 (seventeen years ago) link

the point I was making is that even if Dan is right that operatic improvisation is not unheard of, most melisma in opera is not improvisational and does not signify the way that pop melisma does

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:32 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, but even if that's true, how is it relevant?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

how was your point that 'opera singers employ melisma' relevant?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I brought it up because I thought discussing melisma in the abstract was sort of silly, and that opera seemed different enough to me from what Hudson does to prove that point! (I appear to be wrong about that; Dan's posts have been really informative.) because I understood the thread to be taking a god, I hate melisma turn. which still seems silly to me!

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i'll try to restate this. many people hate melisma in pop music because it strikes them as essentially fake emotion. melisma in pop signifies emotion, frequently. in opera, it does so far less frequently (and even when it does, the singer is explicitly playing a role and has no claim on personal authenticity). therefore, the existence of melisma in opera, assuming you even like it (which i do), may be irrelevant to why you dislike it in pop music, even leaving apart issues of technical ability and melodic composition quality.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I still disagree with this, largely because the singer in pop music is playing a role just as much as the singer in opera is regardless of the autobigraphical content of the pop singer's material, but that's definitely a more defensible statement of your point.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 01:11 (seventeen years ago) link

You know, this isn't the first Dreamgirls thread that's basically abandoned talking about the film.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:38 (seventeen years ago) link

all this agita reminds me of the CRASH thread of last year - guess that bodes well for Dreamgirls' oscar chances

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:54 (seventeen years ago) link

AAAAAAAHHHHHH II-AHHHHHHHHHHHH
WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOUUUUUUU-OOH-OOOOH-OH-AOUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
ALWAYS LOVE
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

"Emotion" or "showing off"? Only her doctor knows for sure.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

so is this movie at least edited less frantically than Chicago? cuz I couldn't sit through shit like that again.

Sonofagun, Sparkle IS out on disc this week. I'll watch that.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_4932129

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I never saw Chicago, but I think Dreamgirls is edited perfectly.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, Is there a cut every 1.5 seconds?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

no. I don't really think it could be characterized as frenetic.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

There are some gratuitous spinning shots during some of the performances and I missed the "One Night Only (Disco)" section due to an urgent bathroom break so I don't know what happened there. None of what I saw struck me as haphazard or even moderately difficult to follow.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

"One Night Only (Disco)": the dancing is sort of frenetic, but understandably so. the editing is not.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

how long is it?

arrgh, there is no way I'm going to get the boy to go see this with me. I tried to convince him eddie murphy was worth it but no go.

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

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