"We're not like those garage/punk bands, we can play our instruments" a.k.a. TS: The Doors vs. The Police

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Couple weeks ago, I was reading an interview with Andy Summers who sounded quite proud to say "We weren't like those shoddy punk bands, we could actually play our instruments."

Last night, I was reading an interview with Robby Krieger who sounded quite proud to say "We weren't like those garage rock bands, we could actually play our instruments."

Two way tie for last... Cliff Notes Rimbaud vs. Cliff Notes Jung/Bowles.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 17:53 (seventeen years ago) link

In retrospect, both of their debut albums are better than I remember them being...

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

both are great! total loathability all around but it doesn't even matter, somehow

― urghonomic (gcannon), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:05 (seventeen years ago) link

does anyone consider the doors a garage rock band? does anyone consider the police a punk band? i guess at the time some people considered the police punk. i never did. at the time.

in any case, the misunderstood could have wiped the floor with the doors, and the buzzcocks would have done the same with the police. do people still listen to the police?

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:09 (seventeen years ago) link

did he actually say "shoddy" punk bands? dude has always been a hack for hire.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Jim Tomlin from Chants R&B >>>>> Robbie Krieger

― f. scott baio (natepatrin), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link

did he actually say "shoddy" punk bands? dude has always been a hack for hire.

It might have been "shitty" instead of "shoddy." Either way, he was pretty disdainful of it.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:21 (seventeen years ago) link

come to think of it, andy summers in zoot money/dantalion's chariot phase could kick doors ass in garageland sweepstakes too. and i like the doors! and they DID know how to play.

summers must have been pushing 40 by the time the police hit it big. some teenage punk he was.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

On the other hand... TS: The Doors' Other Voices vs. Animal Logic

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

both are great! total loathability all around but it doesn't even matter, somehow

This is so OTM.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Friday, 22 December 2006 19:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha, that's such a riduclous thing for Summers to say when it's so painfully obvious that the Police formed with the intention of getting an edge on those other punk bands by hitting everyone over the head with how well they played their instruments.

― Hurting (A-Ron Hubbard), Friday, 22 December 2006 20:59 (seventeen years ago) link

DeRo: Here you were in a role, literally dying your hair platinum-blond and trying to fit in the punks.

Summers: Absolutely. Well, you have to understand I came to the band in this rather murky fashion of [said glumly] "okay, we're a punk band," you know, and I'd just come back from university in America, I was sort of loaded with music, and you know, it's "I've just got so much music in me, I've been trained like classical, and so what do I do? Join a punk band, throw it all down the drain."

DeRo: "Where I'm literally not allowed to" -- the victim was "no solos."

Summers: No solos! Part of the era, that was the thing. They were sort of spitting on us, looking down on people who could actually play their instruments. We were clearly a fake band. I really joined Sting and Stewart ... with what I felt was some instinctual thing, perhaps I sensed it that you know if I get with these guys, with my guitar playing, we can really turn this into something. All we hoped for really was to be a good band and maybe get gigs somewhere.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 22 December 2006 21:13 (seventeen years ago) link

But the Police though, because the Doors ehhhhh.

― Name Not Found (rogermexico), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, I never really thought The Doors played their instruments THAT well.

― Hurting (A-Ron Hubbard), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:28 (seventeen years ago) link

DeRo: Here you were in a role, literally dying your hair platinum-blond and trying to fit in the punks.

Didn't the Police dye their hair blonde because a chewing gum company offered them money to?

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm sure these dudes were just sort of carelessly making the obvious distinction that, you know, "It wasn't like we were the Count Five" for the Doors or "It wasn't like we were ______" for the Police.

― Tim Ellison is number one proponent of Beatle!!!Mania!!! on nu-ILX (tim ellison), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, with the context of the other Summers quotes it seems less ridiculous.

― Hurting (A-Ron Hubbard), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:40 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't think of a single element of the Police that isn't uniformly horrible

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:43 (seventeen years ago) link

http://jonmattox.com/drums/images/stewartcopeland.jpg

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I hate his drum sound.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:56 (seventeen years ago) link

craziness. but even then, he's still good playing on cardboard boxes

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:57 (seventeen years ago) link

(not particularly impressed with the actual beats either - all cribbed from better drummers)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 December 2006 22:58 (seventeen years ago) link

that's what rock critics in 1980 said, and I didn't really get then either. I mean, he plays reggae beats that other reggae drummers played, but I don't know anyone who sounds like stewart copeland (except for a whole bunch of drummers that were directly copying *him*)

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:02 (seventeen years ago) link

like who, Carlton Barrett? Topper Headon? Not to get all rockist, but Copeland's overly academic approach to drumming has never appealed to me. Combine it with that antiseptic, air-tight production sheen and I fall asleep.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:04 (seventeen years ago) link

i browsed andy summers' memoir recently (a friend lent it to me). it was sort of entertaining (i didn't know he knew hendrix and played for a while in neil sedaka's touring band), but full of exactly stuff like that there. sting and jim morrison is a definite toss-up for most full of shit/full of themselves. but i like both of the bands anyway, with definite preference for the police.

― tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think Copeland's approach is any more "academic" than any other drummer who actually took drumming lessons as a kid, and the range of people who take his style as a basic building block of rock drumming is too big to name. he's up there with the john bonhams, steve gadds of the world as far as sphere of influence. not that I want to argue that's why he's great. I think he's great because he is a major voice in every project he's played with, because he can hold a band together all by himself, because he does stuff w/beats that most drummers don't. I think he's great because I love what he plays, and I love the fact that were he not playing it, the police (even as hated as they are) would be even less listenable, would be as plodding a "fake punk" band as, like, men at work. topper headon is not really even in the same ballpark -- I think more along the lines of, like, brian chippendale as far as drummers who actually come in the same line of playing as copeland -- high tuned drums, very much on top of the beat, and even though they're pretty busy drummers, they also play in bands where they're responsible for almost all the forward momentum -- and they still manage to provide it, off beats and fills be damned

(actually, I've always mentally paired him w/bill bruford, though they don't play very similar music)

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah copeland is a MAJOR dude.

― tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:15 (seventeen years ago) link

(like a friend of mine said, he makes the beat his bitch)

― tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:16 (seventeen years ago) link

all fair points Dom - no denyin his influence or his technical ability. altho many of the things you cite as central to his technique - being on top of the beat, high tuned drums, busy, etc. are not things I tend to like. High tuned drums in particular kinda always sound flat and empty to me, for ex.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:24 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, and I'm not denying I just *like* his sound, even before I knew why I liked it. and he does seem to inspire hatred in a lot of people for some reason, tho I always thought it was because he was an asshole ;)

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Perhaps not surprising, I think that both Copeland and Densmore are the most interesting member of each band. The only complaint I have about Copeland is that it's his fault that a thousand less-talented drummers had to show off how badly they played the rototoms.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Summers' friction at "no solos" manifests in odd ways. That anarchy solo in "Peanuts" is pretty terrific.

The two Summers/Fripp albums are worth checking out too.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Anyone have a perspective on the tradition of jazz drummers tuning high? I once saw Andrew Cyrille do a solo performance and it seemed like his kit was tuned fairly tight - maybe I'm wrong (it's been a while). In any case, I totally disagree with Shakey Mo that a higher tuning has much to do with whether a recording ends up sounding flat and empty.

― Tim Ellison is number one proponent of Beatle!!!Mania!!! on nu-ILX (tim ellison), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:40 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe Jordan can shine light on jazz drummers historically doing this -- but in general, high tuned drums = cuts through the mix better. for example, you don't want to compete in the low range with the upright bass, muddying the overall sound, so you play a small kick drum, which resonates high and can be heard without having to compete with the other players

― Dominique (dleone), Friday, 22 December 2006 23:45 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah I like drums thumpy and boomy, what can I say (part of why I prefer Bonham over Copeland, for ex. Also, Bonham knew how to play very little when a song called for it, something I doubt Copeland ever cottoned to).

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Saturday, 23 December 2006 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

drums on "Every Breath You Take," whatever you might think of the song, are pretty fucking effective

― Jaufre Rudel (Jaufre Rudel), Saturday, 23 December 2006 00:12 (seventeen years ago) link

What about Jaki Liebezeit? Tight drums or thumpy and boomy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yOkkPSsZYw

― Tim Ellison is number one proponent of Beatle!!!Mania!!! on nu-ILX (tim ellison), Saturday, 23 December 2006 00:19 (seventeen years ago) link

i was never a big fan of copeland's drum sound on record. i recognize that he's talented and all that. his drums are always way out front and loud and usually i like that (i'm a big neil peart fan!), but for some reason he can bug me. the loudness definitely works on synchronicity though. i think i like that album best. if i had to pick an album. i only hear them on the radio. i actually think that sting is my fave musician in that band! i like the way his bass sounds. especially on synchronicity.

― scott seward (121212), Saturday, 23 December 2006 01:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't imagine wanting to choose between "tight" drum sounds and "boomy" drum sounds - both can be so tasty when applied right. One thing to consider is that tighter drum sounds also ring out for a shorter time, so they're good for fast, tight beats. A song like Message in a Bottle would sound retarded with big boomy drums. That also helps explain why jazz drummers tend to use them, because you have highly intricate and complex rhythms going on and long, boomy tones can muddy them. I think that really has more to do with why jazz drummers use small kick drums than the frequency clash issues - it would just sound too disruptive to drop a 24-inch kick bomb on the third beat of a triplet at a fast tempo.

OTOH jazz played with drums that are too tight can sound really thin, so it's all about finding the right balance for the type of music.

― Hurting (A-Ron Hubbard), Saturday, 23 December 2006 04:11 (seventeen years ago) link

sting's bass TOTALLY makes synchronicity II after hearing it again now. NOT the drums, which sound totally tin canned. which is appropriate given the doomsday junkyard motif, i suppose:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTxSTJxYYVQ&NR

― scott seward (121212), Saturday, 23 December 2006 04:22 (seventeen years ago) link

baantalingngam (1 month ago)
Repetition? These guys were/are respected by musicians for their quality musicianship.What may sound like repetition to you may be sophisticated chord voicings from Andy Summers.And Stewart Copeland-absolutely one of the best drummers ever to dabble in rock/pop.Know what you're talking about before you go voicing opinions.I don't post my views about how to perform cardiovascular surgery

― scott seward (121212), Saturday, 23 December 2006 04:25 (seventeen years ago) link

you can't really isolate stewart's drum sound from the rest of the sound of the band. sting's bass carried the melody AND the low end, which freed up (and/or forced) stewart and andy to find different territory. stewart provides some of the low end too, but it's as often with low tom fills as kick drum -- accents more than downbeats. the downbeat is more implied than actually played, which i think is really the main thing they absorbed from reggae. i totally disagree that stewart is too busy or doesn't know when not to play -- he's all about knowing when not to play. his most obvious signature, the "roxanne" beat, is not busy at all. there's an enormous amount of space in police songs.

― tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Saturday, 23 December 2006 05:34 (seventeen years ago) link

The Police R weird for me b/c everything about them seperated out is something I like loads (apart from Stink's horrible singing, lyrix and stylings), yet I just CANNOT STAND their rekkids, on the odd occasion they come on the radio, I'm like, OFF.

Morrison is super-irrititing but way less so than Stink, plus there's abunch of doors tracks where they manage to get it right, so doors are best for me.

― Norman Phay (Pashmina), Saturday, 23 December 2006 13:03 (seventeen years ago) link

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