issues of patriotism/nationalism/geographical proximity in your music tastes/interests

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desperate nationalism needs to be stamped out, it really is a key factor in the shitness of the uk music press (all of it, dance and rock and pop and 'urban' and everything). IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE PEOPLE ARE FROM. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT BRITISH PEOPLE ARE NOT AS GOOD AS AMERICANS OR GERMANS AT THE MOMENT. GET OVER IT.

-- lexpretend (lexusjee...), December 20th, 2006 11:40 AM.

why doesn't it matter?

you've only got to look at the way some romanticise a place for the sense of buzz/scene in it - having that kind of thing closer to your home would be more exciting and inspiring i think. people generally want the culture they're surrounded by to match their own ideas and fuel it further...esp. in creative/art-based sense.

-- sede vacante (n...), December 20th, 2006 12:05 PM.

in other words it's less to do with wanting to say 'hurray I'm British and Britain is good/successful at THIS' and more 'there are people living in the same territory as me doing things i like/think are interesting/important which is good because knowing i'm close to them geographically makes me feel almost as if i am part of it ahahaha'.

it's not nationalism but individual desire to feel more connected to that which is important and exciting to you.

-- sede vacante (n...), December 20th, 2006 12:10 PM.

any advance?

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:15 (seventeen years ago) link

The Twee/shambling scene to thread.

Oh, you all are already.

M Grout (Mark Grout), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:17 (seventeen years ago) link

This (for anyone who missed it) came from the EOY list thread and an aside about the label Border Community, which is a bit of an odd starting point because, well, I can't for the life of me think where that label is actually based, and compared to grime or dubstep or Tresor/Berlin techno or a thousand other scenes (label-centred or otherwise), it would I think be quite hard to argue that BC has a real sense of geographical place about it

Feargal Hixxy (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm all for music that positively portrays the place you live but yeah, I fucking hate it when the music press clutches at straws with pathetically screaming headlines about how "ROCK BAND FLIES THE FLAG FOR OUR NATION", etc.

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

how do you ever think kasabian became popular?

I am the best lyrocost since Dylan (Scourage), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh, I know.

Just be thankful that you don't have to read "WOLFMOTHER: GREAT AUSSIE SUCCESS STORY" all the fucking time.

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Wolfmother are Australian? Shit.

tissp! (tissp!), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:45 (seventeen years ago) link

shit is an international language

latebloomer: glutton for PUNishment (clonefeed), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Subst. for "The Vines"

Or were they as slagged as it seemed?

M Grout (Mark Grout), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:49 (seventeen years ago) link

This thread title would be much easier to read if it were just 'Parochialism in music: C/D?'

Lex's argument falls down somewhat when you get to hip-hop, and possibly even more so with grime, where what part of London you're from suddenly becomes significant. Mostly because its significant to the artists in question as much as the critics.

There's very little patriotism or nationalism with regard to actual producers in dance music (if indeed any). It matters more in terms of how the music is consumed - if Berlin is the current centre of European house music it follows that the best nights, and the best record shops will be found there. This is hugely significant if you write about music and want to be where the action is. Even more so if you're a minimal house fan living in Brussells or Dublin or Todmorden.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, it's the difference between the next hugely exciting musical movement erupting in your city, where you can see all the gigs, go to all the clubs, bump into the producers in your local pub... or see it happen thousands of miles away.

It matters not a jot to my enjoyment of the music that DOES appear thousands of miles away, but it's not the same as being right there in the thick of it, and really living it.

Of course, this swiftly becomes tiresome once the music gets old and/or crap. Cf city of Manchester still living off past glories over a decade later.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 12:58 (seventeen years ago) link

The Vines did get slagged but only because they gave bad blowjobs to the press or something.

But you know what's even worse? All those fucking articles I've read in the Australian music press praising JET. Yes, JET.

And somehow because Jet is Australian, I'm supposed to be different to the rest of the world and ignore the fact that they are rockist shit of the worst order.

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:03 (seventeen years ago) link

He's right there, you know.

In my day you had the Birthday Party, the Go-Betweens and the Triffids - and who got all the rave reviews and sales?* MEN AT BASTARD WORK!

*until the Police put out another album

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:29 (seventeen years ago) link

The lead singer of Men at Work was Scottish.

That's my Men at Work fact.

Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:38 (seventeen years ago) link

This (for anyone who missed it) came from the EOY list thread and an aside about the label Border Community, which is a bit of an odd starting point

yeah it was an odd jump-off - the things i have issue with are found in coverage of border community, but only slightly. they're more overrated because they're so indietronica. it's more in the mainstream press - i remember an issue of, er, i can't remember now - nme or q or something. anyway, it lumped a bunch of really disparate acts - joss stone, keane, franz ferdinand - together on the cover, slapped a union jack behind them, and trumpeted that because these acts were all doing well, we should a) be happy that we were living in a veritable golden age, and b) get behind our PLUCKY LADS who were REEPRESENTING THE NATION.

it's also all over the popjustice forums, every time a british pop star makes a halfway decent song (eg emma bunton) or even a rub album (eg jamelia) half the responses are THANK GOD WE'RE RECLAIMING POP FROM THOSE NASTY YANKS.

all of this has zero to do with local scenes, because none of these people bump into jamelia in the pub anyway. (it does, however, have a lot to do with access to artists for journalists.)

and i'm not saying that discussion of where a specific artist comes from isn't relevant to analysing their music, of course it is - but it just doesn't matter where artists, generally, are coming from. this is not fucking football!

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:39 (seventeen years ago) link

for the record i feel the same way about endless boring sods bemoaning the fact that britain/america produces no good tennis players any more. so what if the best tennis players in the world are foreign? how on earth does this make them any more/less exciting to watch? would people seriously get more enjoyment out of a roger federer forehand if he was british? would they seriously enjoy dancing to ellen allien, or beyoncé, if they were british? if so they are idiots!

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:41 (seventeen years ago) link

i must admit with BC i was sort of glad to find they were British because i'd been wondering why the sort of dance music coming out of Europe didn't seem to be being made in the UK at that point (that i knew of). but it was re-assuring BECAUSE it made me feel there was a connection to continental trends/tastes here rather than a sense or rivalry/competition.

now i wonder if i could apply this same reasoning to being happy that Liverpool won the European Cup a few seasons ago...

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Men at Work were an Australian reggae-influenced rock band of the early 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_at_work

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:47 (seventeen years ago) link

a bunch of really desperate acts

fixed

I am the best lyrocost since Dylan (Scourage), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:48 (seventeen years ago) link

if so they are idiots!

Who do you think Tim Henman paid for the roof over his head? Wasn't him...

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:50 (seventeen years ago) link

(Er, should be "Who do you think paid for the roof over Tim Henman's head"...)

editio princeps (pato.g27), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 13:50 (seventeen years ago) link

The lead singer of Men at Work was Scottish.
That's my Men at Work fact.

-- Dom Passantino (juror...), December 20th, 2006 1:38 PM. (later)

Oh, I hear that now! in "Down Under".

M Grout (Mark Grout), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 14:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Mark E. Smith has a great quote about the importance of music having a sense of place. I'll be damned if I can find or remember it. Crotchety Mancunians aside, music with a sense of place is more useful than music journalism with a sense of place.

Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 14:32 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm from New Jersey, and there's no question it has made me love Bruce Springsteen more. It's impossible to overstate just how freakin' huge he is here, and has been for 30 years.

Bon Jovi still sucks, though.

kornrulez6969 (kornrulez6969), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 14:32 (seventeen years ago) link

this isn't really what i'm talking about though. there's loads of music i love because it reminds me of home.

but why is it bad if the best music in the world happens to come from, i dunno, atlanta or berlin rather than manchester?

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 14:50 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't think anyone is suggesting that's a problem are they?

i've never thought 'i want London or the UK to be the BEST at doing this', just wanted them to be coming out with a good and successful quantity of it.

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

but if they're not, but america or germany is, is that a problem?

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

It is if all the good stuff is happening in the US or Germany and you can't get to it easily.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

it depends what it is! (xpost)

when it comes to 'music i like' then yeah i find it disappointing if there's no strong participation and success in that which is close to home - for reasons i think i've already given (but there may be more to it).

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

But also, it's more difficult to get noticed if the 'industry' is only looking to the US for 'new'.

M Grout (Mark Grout), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

The most famous act from Costa Mesa is Sugar Ray. AARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:19 (seventeen years ago) link

It is if all the good stuff is happening in the US or Germany and you can't get to it easily.

yes but in this day & age this is not an issue at all

But also, it's more difficult to get noticed if the 'industry' is only looking to the US for 'new'.

this is such a myth!

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

yes but in this day & age this is not an issue at all

it's not an issue for me in that i don't really care about clubs, shops and that so much. it's not like i was desperately wanting to move to Paris in 1997 because of all the cool dance stuff coming out there then. but then i did feel reasonably attached to numerous dance-based scenes/styles in the UK (esp. local) at that point.

i'm not looking for that now but i am looking for/interested in artists who i can identify with/relate to i suppose - geography being a big factor there. not because i subscribe to that 'their music says nothing to me about my life' bullshit or because i'm not interested in alternatives/different ideas (i am) but because it would demonstrate that the ideas/views were being shared and expressed by other people near you. wanting that seems quite a deep instinctive thing but perhaps it does need more justification/explanation.

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

i should point out that with art it's often a case of one not even knowing what ideas appeal to them until someone else presents it to them. so this isn't about conservatism or resistance/fear of the new/unknown as such.

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

"getting" to it surely means more than just downloading the bloody stuff here yes?

I feel where stevem is coming from here though, I was pleased about the whole Dubstep thing going a (tiny bit) overground this year. It feels a little bit significant for being homegrown, more than well, just having the one token somewhat exciting, but not always, label (i.e. BC) that could actually have come out of anywhere in Europe.

Da Mystery of Sandboxin' (fandango), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 15:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Most famous from my hometown are Count Basie and Monster Magnet. Not too shabby.

Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link

Most famous from my hometown: the Bluebells and Friends Again. Though Mogwai do come from Hamilton up the road so maybe that's half a point.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:48 (seventeen years ago) link

obviously the traditional function of parochialism -- to search out and boost local/regional talent -- has been complicated by digital music culture, where people who are interested in searching out talent can do it much more broadly and local support is not the crucial step it used to be toward building a bigger audience. otoh, geographical identity is arguably becoming [i]more[/i] important in people's sense of themselves -- an entirely predictable reaction to globalization -- which works to strengthen artistic parochialism. so it's as natural to root for the hometown mc as the hometown football team.

tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

(oops pardon those php ital tags)

tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:51 (seventeen years ago) link

just having the one token somewhat exciting, but not always, label (i.e. BC) that could actually have come out of anywhere in Europe.

But I think I might prefer it if Dubstep was something happening all over the place instead of this 'it's a South London thing' really. while there may be some truth to that MES quote above, I don't think this sort of music is or need necessarily be bound by it's birthplace. Indeed no style of music need be esp. in the internet age. Some guys in Scotland or Holland have made techno tracks that seemingly pay homage to Detroit or Italo stuff but can sit up there with them at the same time. I like this a lot because I don't really believe in 'fetishising' cities or any places (be it Manchester, Detroit, Berlin, downtown Kingston or Sao Paolo). I can see why it's useful in a way for something like Dubstep to tie itself to it's birthplace to strengthen it's identity tho (it has this in common with other London-based scenes e.g. speed garage, jungle - not-very-coincidentally enough).

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:52 (seventeen years ago) link

the bottom line is - why rep for mediocre, passable hometown music above fantastic, genius foreign music?

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

ie - why pretend that jamelia makes better r&b than beyoncé, or that nathan fake makes better techno than ellen allien, or (insert comparison from your genre of choice)?

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:56 (seventeen years ago) link

(This is kinda why I never pursued writing for the OC Weekly's music section too heavily.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:56 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the bottom line is more, why not rep for good hometown music that no one else is going to rep for?

but having done some local music coverage in small cities, it does get pretty hairy. it's easy to fall into saying nicer things than are deserved about people who you know you're going to run into at a bar.

tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the bottom line is more, why not rep for good hometown music that no one else is going to rep for?

Because I can only cover Pthalocyanine so many times.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I heard that Nathan Fake album once, i.e. I got sent it but didn't think enough of it to spare it from the MVE pile.

Orchestra Of Bubbles is a delight.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:00 (seventeen years ago) link

oh god, yeah, having to review local gigs = why i have never taken the 'career ladder' of music journalism seriously. why do that to yourself?

i do actually make a point of not getting too involved in local scenes for precisely these reasons - ie, if there was a fantastic local band i'd probably gravitate towards them on a friendship level, and i don't like to write extensively about bands i'm friends with.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:01 (seventeen years ago) link

this is a separate qn to the national pride thing, which gets trotted out (in the uk) for bands from london to glasgow and throughout the grey area in between ("the north", i believe it's called)

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:02 (seventeen years ago) link

the bottom line is - why rep for mediocre, passable hometown music above fantastic, genius foreign music?

why pretend that jamelia makes better r&b than beyoncé, or that nathan fake makes better techno than ellen allien, or (insert comparison from your genre of choice)?

no-one here is doing that but surely popjustice's argument is that jamelia is making better pop than Beyonce (which of course you can argue against - i feel the same way about both of them in the end).

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link

This is kinda why I never pursued writing for the OC Weekly's music section too heavily -- Ned Raggett

OC = Ost Croatia??

tiit (t**t), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:09 (seventeen years ago) link

the national pride issue is interesting, because what it so often seems to be asserting is value of local talent vs. american talent. so from an american point of view, it doesn't come up much. i don't think even during the various british invasions that there was any particular sense of national cultural identity being under assault since a.) the brits were mostly playing american-based music and b.) there was still so much american music on the charts anyway.

but the british and euro charts are full of british and euro stuff in addition to whatever american stuff makes it over there, so i'm not sure why it should be much of an issue.

anyway, if the u.s. starts getting more spanish-language stuff in the top 40, i can imagine lou dobbs will have some things to say about it.

tipsy mothra (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:13 (seventeen years ago) link

why pretend that jamelia makes better r&b than beyoncé, or that nathan fake makes better techno than ellen allien, or (insert comparison from your genre of choice)?

i'm not sure if this fits but i really like Sway but i'm pretty sure he's not in the same leauge as the best us rappers in terms of erm rapping and stuff but he makes me laugh and think, about uk stuff(?), more than a lot of US dudes. it just sort of feels like a whole different set of expectations and qualititive judgements have come into play. i'm not sure if this is a bad thing or not. i don't think i'm pretending that i prefer sway to i dunno t.i. or juvenile but i sort of know as a rapper he might not be as "good"...

acrobat (acrobat), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link

national cultural identity being under assault

BINGO. this is exactly the tone a lot of the press is - both in the desperation with which uk acts are bigged up and in the tone it takes which generally involves tearing down us acts.

but the british and euro charts are full of british and euro stuff in addition to whatever american stuff makes it over there, so i'm not sure why it should be much of an issue.

well indeed. even if the charts had no british stuff in them it shouldn't be an issue though (unless the british stuff was genuinely amazing and overlooked).

re sway - i feel the same way. actually sway's press typifies my argument - a lot of the early press on him was rather brilliant, it dealt with his britishness as part of why he was great. it's descended slightly into his britishness being put forward as more of a reason to support him than anything else - not as much as with other acts, but it's there.

i guess he didn't help himself with the disappointing album though, because it kind of means that everyone who was waiting to push him bigtime this year was in a position of going "ok, he's great, but the album isn't, but look he's BRITISH!"

lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:21 (seventeen years ago) link

tipsy saying what i was going to before being distracted by actual 'work' hurrah

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:31 (seventeen years ago) link

except:

but the british and euro charts are full of british and euro stuff in addition to whatever american stuff makes it over there, so i'm not sure why it should be much of an issue.

this isn't the thing for me. my beef is actually a) no-one here is buying The Knife (to use them as an example yet again) but also b) no-one here is making stuff like The Knife either - and i'd personally like to see both. but it's problematic singling out an act like The Knife for this example because they are markedly isolated in terms of what they do. but really i mean anything as relatively weird yet vaguely pop as that.

sede vacante (blueski), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

But I think I might prefer it if Dubstep was something happening all over the place instead of this 'it's a South London thing' really.

Well, scenes also getting quite big in Bristol, being picked up on in Berlin, even in Australia Skream's been playing gigs now.

of course it is facetious to compare a GENRE with a record label.

Da Mystery of Sandboxin' (fandango), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Writing in L.A. this summer, I was churning out an article a week on local bands, many of which were pretty good, because a) we had easy access to in-person interviews and live-show reviews (both because of their location and because we knew some of them personally) and b) when you pick up an L.A. paper you want/expect to see L.A. bands.

I'd actually argue that the rise of the internet as a place to access music from all over the world has led (some) local publications to become more parochial than they were before; when your readers no longer need you to recommend distant bands (since they're getting them from bloggers or whoever), the place to go is in-depth articles about bands they know, love and are proud of.

max (maxreax), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha this is like the first thread ever in history where it would be totally useful and appropriate and awesome to get Calum's point of view on things.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link

All I know is that in the eighties, touring bands from the East Coast and overseas would often decide to skip the Pacific Northwest altogether. This was not entirely unreasonable, since there weren't that many places to play, and it's something of a schlep getting here from anywhere else. However, when Nirvana et al hit in the early nineties, not playing Seattle stopped being an option, and I (living in Portland) got to see a whole lot more high quality live music as a result. (I imagine Athens, Georgia had something of the same effect in the South back when it blew up.)

So whatever ridiculousness is entailed by the existance of an officially sanctified culturally significant "scene", it provides real benefits to the surrounding area.

PFS (pfs), Wednesday, 20 December 2006 18:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Mark E. Smith has a great quote about the importance of music having a sense of place...

The North will rise again!
The North will rise again!
The North will rise again!

Surely that was what you were looking for.

Bizarro Cunga (Cunga), Thursday, 21 December 2006 06:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Canadian content laws to the thread. Or the "Why is Nickleback still on the radio?" question.

(And I write for a local pub, and Lex's point is right on— It's really weird to want to be friends with folks who are doing interesting stuff, and try to keep objective about the whole thing. Which has led me to be kinda standoffish, and is something I'm looking forward to being able to get past once I move to LA, where no one will be friends with me ever.)

Rofofo Fight! (honestengine), Friday, 22 December 2006 05:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I also don't like how it takes away from the assumption of talent. We do have a lot of great bands (as I imagine any college town does), and I worry that they don't get their due because all local press looks the same to outsiders. Whenever I see clips from a hometown paper in press packs, I take 'em with a huge fucking grain of salt (that the writing is always needlessly hyperbolic and cliche-ridden doesn't help).

Rofofo Fight! (honestengine), Friday, 22 December 2006 05:15 (seventeen years ago) link


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