my friend on why that Owen dude who poos clouds is crap: "one cant fully appreicate orchestral music without a theoretical and historical grounding in it"

500,000,000 cinema goers beg to differ

quit hanging out with geir

more tlaking points now

i think if you've spent a lot of time listening to "orchestral music" you might think instrumental/epic/prog etc type stuff from is pretty thin, derivative, clueless, etc

extra "from" there, whoops

oh, i meant to post that *I* think he's crap and she likes him.

It sounds equally dumb no matter how you explain it.

He who poos clouds is crap. She who like he who poos clouds surely eats the turd. He who likes she who eats poos of cloud must also taste the turd of nimbus poo cloud pusher.

There's no orchestra on He Poos Clouds. And I don't think it's very hard to appreciate. It's not quite Pierrot Lunaire, anyway.

It's funny -- and totally predictable, I guess -- that people from the pop-music side of things would see an album like this (or Joanna Newsom's) as having grand pretensions of classicism, or at least art-music composition, whereas people from the classical world see them as working in the direction of pop music: this is totally obvious and to be expected. But I don't think it's out of line to read certain insecurities into the different responses to that: pop people seem to want to attack the albums for it (out of fear of being unsophisticated enough to fall prey to fake-classicist charlatans?), whereas strictly classical folks seem to enjoy them both (possibly out of a certain level of self-consciousness having to do with the marginalization of classical and avant-garde music?).

Both of these records seem to me to work as pop, not in any way that requires familiarity with classical practice: there are details in both that would be helped by that kind of knowledge (like all of Owen's violin-practice classical quotes on He Poos Clouds!), but the fact is that the basic structures and progressions of the songs are pretty pop-standard.

Especially since, yeah, they're not orchestral: lots of He Poos Clouds is built on the same kinds of simple interlocking lines you'd get from a band with a couple guitar players (cuz I presume Owen writes the basics of the songs with his loop pedal), with bits that are single-instrument (just piano for lots of "This Lamb Sells Condos"), and others that work like a simple lead + bass setup.

I get more of a "musical theater" than a "classical music" vibe from both HPC and Ys.

Ehh ... I sorta see what you mean (especially in terms of musical theater, like these albums, sitting comfortably somewhere between pop music and more elaborate composition), but I think that can get misleading in tone -- I mean, I find it pretty hard to think of much musical theater that actually sounds like either of these things. (I can think of stuff that works like them, a little, but not really sounds like them.)

You can enjoy ANYTHING without any prior knowledge, I think he's trying to say that you're not going to "get" it, not enjoy it. You can enjoy lots of things that people pretentiously tell you that you don't "get."

nabisco - which one of the pitchfork lists is yours?

To be fair this is my friend who posted this:

From: Katie
Date: Mar 11, 2004 08:49 PM
Subject: Franz Ferdinand!! (soo rockin!)
Body: Ok, so my good friend turned me onto this new band Franz Ferdinand. And may I say... freakin' AWESOME!! It has been so long since I heard songs sooo good and sooo rockin' that I have to blast it and actually jump around and dance and shake my booty! Seriously, this band rocks, and I mean that cool old fashioned funk edgey raw type of rock, with the catchiest hooks, but pure music all the way thru. An album that will make your head bop and foot tap involuntarily, for sure. Everyone should run out and buy it NOW!! You will NOT be dissappointed!

Is there a league table for appreciation? Is there a maximum possible level of appreciation for the super-initiated?

Nabisco, I'm with you; I wouldn't claim they sound like any one specific musical, but nor do they particularly sound like any one specific symphony or composer.

It may be that one cant fully appreicate orchestral music without a theoretical and historical grounding in it, but this doesn't change the fact that there has been a lot of popular music many people enjoyed that employed orchestras, large or small. I don't understand why that should be a problem. (I am sure I don't fully appreciate orchestral music, but I do like He Poos Clouds.)

I do find I respond much as max reports, being reminded more of music theater than I am of hardcore classical music, although there are moments which specifically remind me of Lou Harrison--but then, a lot of music I listen to that uses European classical instruments ends up reminding me of him, which may just be because he's one of the few classical composers I am familiar with. Not to mention that he seems to be considered fairly light classical. But anyway, the feel is like music theater, even if, no, I can't think of particular examples of music theater it resembles. (Another album I liked this year that makes me think of music theater was Ayelet Rose Gottlieb's Mayim Rabim.

If Nabisco is too modest to mention it, I will point out that he has already commented helpfully on how HPP uses classical instrumentation, and how classical or not it is, on the old ilx HPP thread. In fact, his comments were pretty much the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread title.

But anyway, I think the real bottom line is that people enjoying music they don't fully appreciate is fine.

See, that is bullshit because no one who listens to Franz Ferdinand can really appreciate the core of their music without a solid grounding in the roots of their sound.
x-post

(How can one fully appreciate Nelson Riddle Orchestra without a deep understanding of the European symphonic tradition?)