i kind of knew that but it's nice to have someone else spell it out so i don't get "lex whingeing about the same things again" thrown back at me
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 10:33 (twelve years ago) link
i'm listening to the goapele album and it's just so gorgeous, light and crisp and melodies for days and her voice is, like, right up in the sky. and yet critics prefer to hole up in frank ocean's horrible bedroom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRn2DAggPEE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C8br28So7U
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 10:39 (twelve years ago) link
i got sent this the other day. i'll check it out.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 10:40 (twelve years ago) link
Frank Ocean easily my favourite album of the year. I am not a hipster, but then again I'm also not really a true r'n'b fan either.
― pandemic, Thursday, 15 December 2011 10:53 (twelve years ago) link
Well, that's the point really. I was using "hipster" in its widest sense. The Lex is obviously truly invested in r'n'b and gets frustrated with critics fawning over this spruced up, watered down, crossover stuff when in his experience there's much better stuff out there that doesn't have to pander to rock audiences. And he's right - there are probably dozens of great r'n'b albums out this year that are better than Frank Ocean. But for the average rock fan, only really dipping their toe into the r'n'b ahem, "ocean", it's stuff like The Weeknd/F.O. etc that will act as a gateway to greater things. I think there are now plenty of indie/rock kids out there who are ready and willing to diversify and explore other styles, but for whom diving straight into the deep end of r'n'b is just a little outside their comfort zones. When an artist is presented in the way of Frank Ocean, it doesn't feel like such a leap and hopefully this will lead to further exploration: "Well I can deal with Frank Ocean, how about The-Dream" and onwards...
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:10 (twelve years ago) link
Funny you should end on that note cos, mainly thanks to ILX/Lex, I really love The-Dream also. V much liked the new Anthony Hamilton as well. I think that so far I've had a much harder time connecting with some of the female led acts he has recommended and I think I'll try harder on that front next year. Not keen on the Weeknd tho (I've only heard the 'happy house' one tbf)
― pandemic, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:16 (twelve years ago) link
Diddy-Dirty Money was my favourite album of last year as well, by far. Not sure if that counts as hip hop or r'n'b. Well both I guess.
― pandemic, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:18 (twelve years ago) link
I'm no r'n'b exponent either to be honest. I generally try to get as much as I can from as many styles as possible, but I admit I'm one of those people who finds a lot of r'n'b a barrier, so yeah I did like the Frank Ocean album, and admittedly the Weeknd album - but I kind of know that these are a bit boring and probably not the "right" things to listen to. I'm the equivalent of the punk rock kid who only listens to Sum 41 and Green Day I guess. It's why it's good to have huge advocates like the Lex around on ILM, because even though his tone can come of as maybe a bit gripey, even scolding, it galvanises people like me into checking out things that don't necessarily pander to my preconceived values.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:21 (twelve years ago) link
^^^^^^^^^^^^I often feel like my musical tastes would v often make the Lex roll his damn eyes or kiss his teeth, but there is also so much stuff that he broadly approves of that I now unabashedly love thanks to his championing of it.
― pandemic, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:26 (twelve years ago) link
I really believe that one of the best things about music in 2011 is the fact there are no longer these big tribal barriers between styles, and you will happily see e.g. screamo kids getting into dubstep, or indie kids getting into r'n'b, and that this isn't even an exception to the rule anymore. If you have access to an iPod and an internet connection, there's no reason you can't listen to any style of music, and that's why it's largely crossover artists - ones who bridge the gap between pop/rock/dance or commercial/underground: Katy B, Odd Future, Skrillex etc who are making an impression on people. And I know people bitch about many of these - Skrillex not being "proper dubstep" or whatever, but think about how many people are being introduced to dance music via his records and what this means for the future of music. Big tings for the rest of the decade, I guess.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:32 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not all that convinced about the concept of gateway records/artists but have no problem with a thing not being a "proper version" of a thing
― april wowak, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:34 (twelve years ago) link
I suppose it does in a way explain the rapid rise and subsequent fall of certain kinds of artists though - once people either go through a door, or retreat from whence they came, leaving the artist in a limbo area
― april wowak, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:35 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, the gateway thing doesn't really ring true for me either. Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B
― Number None, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:37 (twelve years ago) link
xpost what kinds of artists do you mean?
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:38 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, the gateway thing doesn't really ring true for me either. Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B― Number None, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:37 (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
― Number None, Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:37 (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
Yes, but it's still getting people out of their comfort zones. Sure a lot of Weeknd fans will say dumb shit like "It's r'n'b music, but, like, good, y'know?", but (and here's hoping) they'll stop swimming in the kiddie pool after a while and start exploring other things. That's how tastes evolve - more often than not it's not about being hit round the head by something that challenges every idea and value you hold about what makes something "good".
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:41 (twelve years ago) link
And the people listening to The Weeknd, I'm glad to say, aren't doing it in an ironic way. It's not like they're saying "ooh look at me, I'm listening to that r'n'b nonsense, what a loveable rogue I am". It's being treated with reverence most of the time. There was so much posturing and post-modernism going on in the last decade, particularly with the whole eighties revival thing and it's nice to be getting away from much of that IMO.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:45 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, as much as it pains me to say this, AW absolutely OTM.
Because I know that I tend to get snobby about ppl getting into, say, BRMC and me being all "that's not proper dronerock!" - but if someone made the same protest about me previously saying that the great thing about Busted was, that they were bubblegum punk, and utterly *not* a gateway into "proper" (i.e. shit emo) punk.
Like it for what it is, but don't pretend that you're getting out of your paddling pool when it comes to comfort zones of Other music.
― Thomosexual II (Fotherington Thomas), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:47 (twelve years ago) link
I dunno, obv this is my perception. I think the difference these days is we now have access to much more music online that it's really easy to discover stuff via Last.FM, YouTube, Spotify etc. If you're interested in one thing, it's likely you'll come across something else sooner or later. Who's to say lots of kids didn't get into Green Day through Busted and then into NOFX and then Black Flag and Minor Threat and Converge?
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:52 (twelve years ago) link
Metal Hammer Top 50 albums of 2011
50 Trap Them - Darker Handcraft49 Primus - Green Naugahyde48 Arabrot - Solar Anus47 Hammers Of Misfortune - 17th Street46 Cerebral Ballzy - S/T45 YOB - Atma44 TessaracT - One43 Steven Wilson - Grace For Drowning42 Vallenfyre - A Fragile King41 Times Of Grace - Hymns Of A Broken Man40 The Dwarves - The Dwarves Are Born Again39 Anvil - Juggernaut Of Justice38 Ken Mode - Venerable37 Altar Of Plagues - Mammal36 Blood Ceremony - Living With The Ancients35 Will Haven - Voir Dire34 Skeletonwitch - Forever Abomination33 Wormrot - Dirge32 Nightwish - Imaginaerum31 Devin Townsend - Ghost30 Dream Theater - A Dramatic Turn Of Events29 Solstafir - Svartir Sandar28 Foo Fighters - Wasted Light27 Trivium - In Waves26 Jane's Addiction - The Great Escape Artist25 In Solitude - The World,The Flesh,The Devil24 The Damned Things - Ironiclast23 Pentagram - Last Rites22 Autopsy - Macabre Eternal21 Steel Panther - Balls Out20 Motorhead - The World Is Yours19 Black Stone Cherry - Between The Devil & The Deep Blue Sea18 Ancient VVisdom - A Godlike Inferno17 Primordial - Redemption At The Puritan's Hand16 Wolves In The Throne Room - Celestial Lineage15 Devildriver - Beast14 Amebix - Sonic Mass13 The Devil's Blood - The Thousandfold Epicentre12 Gentleman's Pistols - At Her Majesty's Pleasure11 Evile - Five Serpents Teeth10 Graveyard - Nuclear Blast9 Skindred - Union Black8 Black Spiders - Sons Of The North7 Devin Townsend Project - Deconstruction6 Hell - Human Remains5 Megadeth - Thirt3en4 Opeth - Heritage3 Anthrax - Worship Music2 Machine Head - Unto The Locust
1 MASTODON - THE HUNTER
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:55 (twelve years ago) link
Why would it be a ~good~ thing if kids got "into Green Day through Busted and then into NOFX and then Black Flag and Minor Threat and Converge"
That's just rockist bullshit. Who's to say that it's not equally valid if kids got into Backstreet Boys, the Jackson 5 and the Supremes through their bubblegum influences?
It's not the path that gets you there that's the wrong thing. It's the inherent privileging of one over the other that is problematic.
Unlike the Lex, I have no problem with people liking indie-flavoured R&B, so long as they don't pretend that Indie is somehow inherently *better* than R&B. It just isn't.
― Thomosexual II (Fotherington Thomas), Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:56 (twelve years ago) link
I think you're putting quite a lot of words in my mouth here TBH. Busted isn't even part of this, as they're not current to the trend I'm talking about.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:01 (twelve years ago) link
i am really happy that people are getting into any music at all through me!
Especially when a lot of fans of, say, The Weeknd frame their enjoyment of them in terms of their opposition to mainstream R&B
yeah this is the crux of it for me - or not just mainstream r&b, just other r&b, including the traditional stuff and the genuinely weird sideways alt-stuff.
also i think it's perfectly legit to call out grown-ass professional critics who privilege indie-r&b and either dismiss or don't bother with much else (as opposed to just casual listeners, who - sigh - can listen to what they want, as long as they don't make stupid arguments for it to me à la the above)
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:02 (twelve years ago) link
it does make me SERIOUSLY smh to see EOY write-ups of frank ocean and the weeknd framed in terms of "omg, you'll never guess, this was a free download on the internet and yet we paid attention" because none of those people paid attention to dawn richard or nikkiya DID THEY
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:03 (twelve years ago) link
everything's a free download on the internet nowadays
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:04 (twelve years ago) link
dog latin how many of the metal hammer list have you heard?
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:06 (twelve years ago) link
im surprised uncle acid and the deadbeats missed out on both Kerrang and Metal Hammers lists
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:07 (twelve years ago) link
xxp ha yeah I get the impression that a lot of writers are still getting to grips w/ the idea of *normal listeners* being able to lawfully acquire albums for free
― Extreme Lifestyle, Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:08 (twelve years ago) link
JR: none of 'em. woops! i was interested to hear the arabrot album though. oh i think i've scraped the surface of the opeth record. seriously, i only listen to a minutiae of the amount of metal i used to - this is mostly due to who i live with and who i hang out with these days as opposed to anything else.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:09 (twelve years ago) link
dog latin is getting old!
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:14 (twelve years ago) link
(This is where JR and I have ~differences~ but I am really uncomfortable with the way that "Metal" has been raised to that position of automatic rockist privilege that "Indie" used to occupy 20 years ago, now that "Indie" has become completely mainstream. But this is challops and I know it.)
― Thomosexual II (Fotherington Thomas), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:17 (twelve years ago) link
also i think it's perfectly legit to call out grown-ass professional critics who privilege indie-r&b and either dismiss or don't bother with much else (as opposed to just casual listeners, who - sigh - can listen to what they want, as long as they don't make stupid arguments for it to me à la the above)― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:02 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:02 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
This isn't particular to r'n'b either, but it's just the way things are for a lot of genres outside the general pop/rock domain. For some reason Mastodon became the go-to metal band for non-metal critics to write about a while back. They're a good band, but are they THE BEST? Probably not. Then you've got Liturgy - a black metal band who dress as hipsters - and as you can imagine they have SCORN poured over them by so-called "true" black metal types who see them as an insult to their traditions. But is it bad that Liturgy (who I haven't heard yet, but understand are pretty good) get reviewed in Pitchfork, but not Weakling? I wouldn't say it's fair but if it means indie kids might be tempted to check out a bit of metal for a change, then I'm all for it.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:20 (twelve years ago) link
dog latin is getting old!― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:14 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:14 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink
Yes, yes. Also to do with getting to listen to music for a maximum of 2-3 hours a day on weekdays, and wanting to cram as much in as possible. And having a girlfriend who's studying, neighbours and paper-thin-walls etc. I hate listening to metal quietly, so it ends up being placed on the back burner. A real shame!
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:24 (twelve years ago) link
I know metal encompasses a variety of styles but interesting that it gets lists of 50 and over from its dedicated mags. Anything else with the same monolithic label (hip-hop, country, dance/electronic, even 'indie' lol) had lists that extensive from dedicated channels (may be examples upthread that i missed)?
― nashwan, Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:31 (twelve years ago) link
This is where JR and I have ~differences~ but I am really uncomfortable with the way that "Metal" has been raised to that position of automatic rockist privilege that "Indie" used to occupy 20 years ago, now that "Indie" has become completely mainstream.
Huh?
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:36 (twelve years ago) link
I like Liturgy a lot and have listened to as much black metal this year as almost anything else but I don't think you could get me to actually care about black metal 'culture' being 'belittled' if you put a gun to my head
― Extreme Lifestyle, Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:38 (twelve years ago) link
Yes, it's absolute bollocks isn't it? If the music's good, why complain?
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:40 (twelve years ago) link
also Weakling are kind of indie-friendly as the genre goes, P4K would prolly write about them if they reformed tomorrow tbh
― Extreme Lifestyle, Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:41 (twelve years ago) link
xp it's not so much that as 'what a disaster for a bunch of mostly white male self-proclaimed misanthropes'
― Extreme Lifestyle, Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:43 (twelve years ago) link
Well, I think it's also because BM fans don't see why Liturgy should be given the upper hand just because they dress in casual clothes. I can imagine there's also a sentiment of tokenism here, Liturgy appealing to "in it for a minute" fans, or whatever.
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:54 (twelve years ago) link
Then you've got Liturgy - a black metal band who dress as hipsters - and as you can imagine they have SCORN poured over them by so-called "true" black metal types who see them as an insult to their traditions. But is it bad that Liturgy (who I haven't heard yet, but understand are pretty good) get reviewed in Pitchfork, but not Weakling? I wouldn't say it's fair but if it means indie kids might be tempted to check out a bit of metal for a change, then I'm all for it.
yeah Liturgy are scorned by some for his 'essays' and youtube videos.Weakling probably preceded pitchfork hence no coverage.
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:56 (twelve years ago) link
I'm so out of touch...
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 12:57 (twelve years ago) link
you should hang out in metal threads thenand get a pair of headphones
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:00 (twelve years ago) link
NY resolution IMO
― dog latin, but cool (dog latin), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:10 (twelve years ago) link
Okay, Katy B is no 2 in the Guardian list and presumably PJ Harvey is no 1.
― los krampusinos! (pomplamau5), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:16 (twelve years ago) link
is that predictable for the guardian?
― Minga Frump (Jimmy Riddle), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:17 (twelve years ago) link
I suggest we stop thinking of genres and concentrate on artists instead. Questions of taxonomy are impossible to answer. Lots of listeners don't consider Lady Antebellum and Taylor Swift country. Artists shape genres, not the other way around.
Many years ago, knowing little about traditional R&B other than what I heard on the radio, I bought a Luther Vandross comp -- a perfect gateway. Then I bought artists similar to Vandross. Soon whatever I considered "R&B" sounded accessible -- I "got it," so to speak.
My favorite R&B album of the year: Marsha Ambrosius' Late Nights & Early Mornings. Seek it out!
― Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:18 (twelve years ago) link
I don't know, but it's a way less boring result than it could have been.
― los krampusinos! (pomplamau5), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:21 (twelve years ago) link
KATY B!
it was predictable for me but that's cuz i knew who else was voting and what their tastes were (which is why i was certain that beyoncé would be top 10, too). i imagine it is not so predictable to the beloved comments box massive
*gets popcorn out*
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:22 (twelve years ago) link
This list has just lost its last shred of credibility.
Poor show all round for people whose taste in music is meant to be at professional levels.
Hang your head in shame, Guardian Music.
― los krampusinos! (pomplamau5), Thursday, 15 December 2011 13:22 (twelve years ago) link