Let's talk about Ciara's Evolution

Actually Dan I don't think I'm doing either of those things - if anything I was noting how people view the parameters for succcess differently with R&B, and saying I think sometimes those parameters are applied inflexibly, with insufficient appreciation for how particular songs can change parameters for success if they want to - and of course it goes without saying that those parameters also change for particular listeners, but I appreciate that we have to thrash out the "when you make a statement that sounds objective are you in fact being objective?" issue in every ILX thread at some stage.

In general I appreciate that R&B places a higher premium on technical vocal performance than, say, rock. This results in a lot of what is good about R&B (and some of what is bad). But just as rock is not limited to a particular notion of a four piece live band, R&B is not limited to a particular notion of singing. This is precisely because we can't ultimately unanimously agree on parameters (altough ps Geir to thread).

i like Ciara but have to say the first time I heard the song w/o knowing who it was, I thought, that girl really doesn't have the voice for it

this album gets better & better & BETTER!

Interesting factoid - on "Heard it Through the Grapevine" apparently Berry Gordy had them play the song in a certain key because he knew that Marvin Gaye would have to strain to reach the upper notes, which gave it more of a desperate quality.

I may not have this anecdote exactly right but close enough to make the point I think.

uhh I kind of understand where Dan is coming from, elsewhere I had an argument w/ someone who claimed that the new Nelly Furtado single was better than Aaliyah's entire catalogue and I found this kind of ridiculous; of course they can prefer any song to any other if they want to, but the comparison still seemed to 'miss the point' of aaliyah's approach, which is a much more subtle vocal performance; where Nelly F. is about melody, Aaliyah is melody AND interpretation/style (i'm generalizing, really both artists do both but I think Aaliyah has more of a balance). Not that there's anything wrong with ignoring Aaliyah's subtle qualities, if you prefer the sleek production and cool melody-aspect of the new Furtado single thats cool, but to compare it to Aaliyah's entire catalogue just because its timbaland+singer misses some very significant aspects of R&B performance that I think are integral to MY appreciation of R&B.

uh i have no idea if that made sense.

I've actually started listening to Loose again and noticing how nuanced some of the performances are. I still haven't gotten around to giving the Ciara album more than one proper listening.

maybe "proper listening" is not really what's called for with that record though

"Proper Listening" aka not putting it on as I'm falling asleep and only hearing the first three songs.

ah okay, approval granted, carry on

(haha Matt)

I've actually started listening to Loose again and noticing how nuanced some of the performances are

100% OTM; given the way everyone on ILM bigged up the club tracks and bashed everything that was ballady or mid-tempo, I was shocked both at how consistently good that whole album is AND by how much of a vocal an emotional chameleon Nelly is on the album (the vocals on "Showtime" sound like a completely different person from what she's doing on "Te Busque", which is totally different from "Say It Right" which is distinct from "Promiscuous" which sounds nothing like "Maneater", etc).

The Aaliyah comparison is interesting because I think both Aaliyaha and Tweet had much stronger vocal presence than Ciara (with Tweet being the strongest). My biggest problem with Ciara is that I feel like she's a completely uninteresting cypher; my enjoyment of her songs are solely tied to how much I like the beat as opposed to anything she's doing.

(The Marvin Gaye story falls down somewhat in this context when you remember that Marvin Gaye was a phenomenally flexible singer who did a bunch of different songs in a bunch of different styles, both strong and tender, whereas Ciara has made the beginnings of her career by singing every song put out for the public like Sade vocalizing into a pillow.)

i didn't mean to compare the two that way - merely observing that sometimes stretching against someone's abilities can be a good way to obtain a more evocative performance.

Oh, that I totally agree with! My point about Ciara is that it seems like every song where she sings outside of a range that goes from the F above middle C to the C above that stretches against her abilities, so I'm not sure that lionizing her for sounding like she's desperately reaching for a note on a particular song is warranted.

I wouldn't deny that Ciara is limited as a singer and there's a shitload of songs where she sounds like it too. I just think it works on "Promise". Difference of opinion anyway. ("Oh" is also a weirdly compelling vocal performance, albeit very differently).

And, y'know, obviously good vocal performance is a huge part of R&B and it goes towards why Teedra Moses > Aaliyah > Ciara. On a song by song basis though there's no necessary reason why vocal chops will push someone further over the line.