Paris = Jarvis

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Russell Senior = Nicole Richie

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes but Alex you are hardly the best barometer of obscurity.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

people LOVE morrissey thou. all through his wilderness years he was still packing venues worldwide. i don't jarvie has quite the same appeal.

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Albums about stalking, killing and death don't have a lot of commercial potential no matter how much advance hype they get.

all hip hop albums ever to thread

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah but black people stalking and killing is either news elsewhere or else comedy exaggeration, whereas white people doing it is either news elsewhere or comedy exaggeration.

― Sick Mouthy (sickmouthy), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, throughout the past ten years nightclub nights that just play The Smiths and Moz solo have been doing a roaring, "buy ticket in advance if you wanna get in" trade. Can you imagine even one night of a Pulp nightclub turning profit?

xxp

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:23 (seventeen years ago) link

also, most heavy metal albums to thread

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:25 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm not sure this is very interesting!

please talk about the momentous new ciara album instead.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Ciara used to be a man, now she has an album. End of thread.

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:30 (seventeen years ago) link

I believe a thread for the latter already exists.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:31 (seventeen years ago) link

many xposts

My point was more about the disconnect between the hype and the music ... if you've made your mark by selling death-obsessed records, then fine. But if everyone remembers you as the geeky dude who was riding in a shopping cart in that kooky mid-90's video, death is a hard sell.

― No Time Before Time (Barry Barry), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:32 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, go to that thread and talk about that album! i don't see what's very remarkable about the premise of this thread and it's only going to get bogged down in arguing over minutiae.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Honestly, Lex, I don't know why you hang around threads which clearly don't interest you.

Perhaps I'll go on the Ciara thread and make snarky posts about current trends in improvised music and see how you like it.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:34 (seventeen years ago) link

what is this 'Ciara used to be a man' thing about?

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 608,000 for ciara used to be a man. (0.27 seconds)

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:36 (seventeen years ago) link

getting "bogged down in arguing over minutiae" is the raison de etre of ilx!

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 19,000 for ciara "sex change". (0.25 seconds)

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought Ciara was Tyra's lost sister, hidden away from the public up til now because of fetal alcohol syndrome.

― Leon Czolgosz (Leon), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Jarvis Cocker's 'The Trip' compilation is quite good anyway.

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:39 (seventeen years ago) link

this thread is beyond terrible, and that's coming from me

― Sandbox Scourage (Scourage), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:40 (seventeen years ago) link

why?

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:48 (seventeen years ago) link

(louis.jagger@haberdager.hidere) huh... oh

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Not much Paris content in this thread, is there?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Jarvis spends a lot of time in Paris these days (OHOHO MY SIDES)

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

How did Jimmy Tarbuck get in there?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Vaseline.

― M Grout (Mark Grout), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

why?

how does it work in any conceivably rational manner?

― Louis Jagger (Scourage), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

are you the Real Louis or Fake Louis?

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:17 (seventeen years ago) link

YOU KIDS MAKE THIS WORLD LOUSY!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

the real louis!

the reason i said that is that within about two posts the paris angle had been killed and everyone was talking about morrissey again FFS, the reason for this being that nobody could add anything to the paris=jarvis comparison. there's absolutely nothing to add!

oh, and 'we love life' was ace. paris hilton has never done nor could ever do anything that could bring me such joy as that album.

(ahem)

― Louis Jagger (Scourage), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:32 (seventeen years ago) link

i didn't realise Sutton produced the Jarvis LP. i played Boymerang's 'Urban Space' at 45rpm again yesterday, cyber-calypso-jazz ahoy!

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

'we love life' was ace

yes.

― M Grout (Mark Grout), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:40 (seventeen years ago) link

i heard half of it the other day and it seemed a bit too dreary.

perhaps Hilton has missed a trick by not covering 'Common People' ala Shatner.

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link

i heard half of it the other day and it seemed a bit too dreary.

for the first time in 5 years i should add

― sede vacante (blueski), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost: oh no you have invoked the beast!

listen to it enough and it suddenly becomes their best album. it helps if the half you heard had 'sunrise' in it.

― Louis Jagger (Scourage), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link

the real comparison was about how certain albums become events because of the personalities attached. i mean this obviously isn't exactly new but both these albums followed such a similar trajectory. i think nick s was onto something about why jordan and peter's album has prospered. my point is also that jarvis is by most people seen as a caricatured media figure. To be honest the best things Jarvis has done in the last 10 years have been in broadcasting, his program about music on television was brilliant. I’d far prefer to see to see him interview more forgotten figures from pop history than making listen to his records.

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

perhaps Hilton has missed a trick by not covering 'Common People' ala Shatner.

omg i hate shatner but i can imagine paris doing a 'stars are blind'-esque cheapo reggae cover of 'common people' which would be amazing and let's face it she is the ideal person to sing that song. well, ANY song, but especially that song.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

I think the more apposite comparison is with Rachel Stevens rather than Paris; punters are happy to read about them in magazines but do not necessarily want to buy their records.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I note that Jarvis still charted four places higher than Ys though!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link

the real comparison was about how certain albums become events because of the personalities attached.

how is this different to madonna/beyoncé/50 cent/babyshambles/xtina though?

also the ways in which paris & jarvis are celebrities is so different - jarvis is taken seriously in ways which paris will never be, even if she pwns him as an artist.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

which she doesn't.

― mister the guanoman (m the g), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I also note that out of all those acts you listed, Madonna is the only one whose last record shifted serious units (in Britain at least).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:54 (seventeen years ago) link

WHICH SHE DOES.

I note that Jarvis still charted four places higher than Ys though!

haha i would never have guessed that joanna newsom was half that popular!!!

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:54 (seventeen years ago) link

The Paris angle wasn't killed, though, was it? I mean 'is going for a different audience' is a no-brainer and it's covered in the original question: the thing about Paris, which she has in common with Jarvis, is that she recieved all this mainstream broadsheet media attention which hasn't been reflected in record sales. They were both building on previous celebrity: the fact that Jarvis' previous celebrity stemmed originally from releasing records doesn't matter that much. They're both considered - for better or worse, for legitimate or illegitimate reasons - Important, cultural phenomena, worth considering. But the record-buying public don't appear to care very much.

I quite enjoy it when the record-buyers and the pop media (or broadsheet media trying to cover pop) are so fundamentally out of joint with one another? like how often Rachel Stevens would appear on totp/saturday morning kids' tv when those were dwindling: it was the only place she could really do promo, but her record sales didn't quite justify the presence she had. I think it's a manifestation of the same thing - this is how broadsheet media can connect to popular music, by dealing with people as Intellectual Survivor of Pop Life (jarvis) or Walking Symptom of Modern Culture (paris) -- but then it just isn't reflected by the pop markets, which don't follow those rules.

also, srsly, Just cos mans want to otm each other about how pulp are not the smiths (well done! no-one disagrees with you! have a cookie!) doesn't mean the original point doesn't stand.

xposts, obv

― cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

that's surely rather good in november thou? in a less competitive time of year it'd be top 40 easily

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, but 'personalities' does no justice to the absolute chasm between our general perception of jarvis, an intelligent, high-achieving pop-star with useful opinions and the ability to write cracking songs, and our general perceptions of paris, which are practically the opposite. 'caricatured media figure'? i don't see that with jarvis.

i also haven't noticed nearly as much press for jarvis' album as for paris'. neither in the context of this year have been that prominent anyway; joanna newsom and even My Chemical Romance have outstripped both in terms of publicity.

― Louis Jagger (Scourage), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost: capitals do not equal truth.

― mister the guanoman (m the g), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I also note that out of all those acts you listed, Madonna is the only one whose last record shifted serious units (in Britain at least).

kind of why i listed them (as paul was talking about underperforming albums) - though cf american life for madge. also throw eminem in there too. i didn't think back to basics had underperformed though.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

x post

of course jarvis is a caricature. as much as he fights against it he'll always be to 95% of britain that funny bloke with glasses who wiggled his bum at michael jackson!

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

also cf his apperance on that bt advert circa 2001 "hello it 90s pop joker Jarvis hanging from a lamp post!"

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 67 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Jarvis = guest vocallist. As was Tony Christie, etc.

― M Grout (Mark Grout), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't think maneater and sexyback were quite as big as don't feel like dancing certianly in all round appeal type way. don't think either of them straddled the radio 1 radio 2 divide in quite the same way.

― acrobat (acrobat), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

but it's the diff between 'felt big' and 'were big', isn't it - like the diff between 'beyonce is a huge star&diva' and 'beyonce's latest album has not sold as much as you'd expect'. Manester and SexyBack felt like Event Singles, in a way that other records which had more long-term/wideranging popularity didn't.

― cis boom bah (cis), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 19:48 (seventeen years ago) link

ha, it's the difference between "nelly furtado shows up on red carpet, or maybe doesn't, wearing whatever, and no one notices" and "nelly furtado shows up on red carpet in glamorous dress and gets on the front page of the paper the next day"

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 20:08 (seventeen years ago) link

ie 'i don't feel like dancing' may have been bigger than 'maneater' but 'maneater' made nelly furtado bigger than the scissor sisters

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 20:09 (seventeen years ago) link

"I Don't Feel Like Dancing" god ridiculous play on The Hits, The Box, and all your other friendly neighbourhood music video stations, possibly as a legion of young men tried to work out if fancying Ana Matronic makes them gay.

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 21:04 (seventeen years ago) link

*got ridiculous

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Tuesday, 5 December 2006 21:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Maneater and Sexyback didn't get played on Radio 2, except on Gambaccini's Billboard chart rundown.

They weren't event singles because they didn't engage the whole spectrum of consumers; only a certain section. Of course any act's new single will be an "event" to their fans, but that's not quite the same thing.

Examples of "event singles" would include Do They Know It's Christmas, Roll With It/Country House, Free As A Bird, Candle In The Wind '97 and Patience.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 08:29 (seventeen years ago) link

all of those are really, really awful.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 08:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not talking about their quality. I'm talking about their being event singles.

I suppose the next Kylie single, whatever that turns out to be, will also qualify.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 08:46 (seventeen years ago) link

i have heard 'maneater' and 'sexyback' a grillion mo times than 'don't feel like dancing' or even 'crazy'. 'sexyback' was much more of an event track than any of them.

welcome to the world of objective fact, bitches.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:24 (seventeen years ago) link

wrf is 'patience'?

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:26 (seventeen years ago) link

take that

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't see where Paris Hilton fits in there.

Throw the words around a bit and the answer would be: any dick if it's attached to a camera.

― nathalie (stevienixed), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:31 (seventeen years ago) link

The only way in which Timberlake has ever been an event is standing next to Janet Jackson when that happened. That's how he'll be remembered.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:38 (seventeen years ago) link

it's a fickle world; there's no ay of knowing that. but i think he's as likely to be remembered as the scissor sisters.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:40 (seventeen years ago) link

whether or not jt is remembered is completely irrelevant, isn't this a discussion which has been had a gazillion times?

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:42 (seventeen years ago) link

it's so irrevelevant that i've already forgotten who he is.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, much like you masturbating over Paris/Ciara/Beyonce/Cassie/your name here ad infinitum (xpost).

I ask you for the second time: why do you hang around threads which you don't like?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:46 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.goenglish.com/ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.asp

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 09:49 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the talk of event singles or indeed event albums sort of leads back on topic. i mean paris and jarvis were both presented as events yet neither lived up to it really. stars are blind did go top 5 though admitedly the follow up peaked 50 places lower. anyway it seems like both were hoped to be events for different demographics. erm cultureshowpop or maybe G2pop vs londonlitepop...

― acrobat (acrobat), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:18 (seventeen years ago) link

jarvis really has not been all that hyped.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Well it just shows what a pretty pass things are in when 3000 sales gets you into the top five.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:20 (seventeen years ago) link

grammar: "3000 sales GET you into the top five"

OMM did a pretty miserable job of hyping Cocker in the last-but-one issue.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:21 (seventeen years ago) link

ok been over this it felt hyped to me. nme cover, OMM, culture show, lots on radio4 he had his own series then a bunch of stuff on other shows and i kept seeing features on him also big posters in front of record stores suggested it was expected to do something more than it did.

― acrobat (acrobat), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:22 (seventeen years ago) link

However, being on Rough Trade, it was unlikely to do more than it did, commercially.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:26 (seventeen years ago) link

dunno the libertines and the strokes both got no 1s whilst on rough trade...

― acrobat (acrobat), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:30 (seventeen years ago) link

re hype -- paris doesn't get the same kind of hype, she just gets 'items', gossipy things. jarvis gets interviews and whatnot.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Which is more useful?

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:48 (seventeen years ago) link

personally, i think jarvis is a more interesting public figure.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Because of Jarvis or because of Paris?

― Dom Passantino (DomPassantino), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 13:02 (seventeen years ago) link

well i missed the radio shows on art schools but that's a subject that interests me and obviously el jarv belongs to that lineage, even if i'm not so interested in his music now (never was particularly, thnking about it -- i have maybe two pulp 45s). could paris say something interesting about anything? yet to see evidence of this, and i'll take my two pulp records over her stuff. the missus likes them both, but i reckon she'd opt for jarvis in the long-run. she sent me the richard x thing w. jarv, but i didn't d/l (full disclosure).

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Wednesday, 6 December 2006 13:06 (seventeen years ago) link

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