Has there ever been a British person who could be described as a Great European?

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well?

and if not, why not? and how long will we have to wait before there is one?

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:03 (seventeen years ago) link

What does "Great European" mean?

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Saint Patrick!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link

large or immense

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link

thomas more

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

lord haw haw

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.frifagbevegelse.no/multimedia/archive/00746/andyCapp_sinna_746205a.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe it's me. I do have an animated EU flag on my myspace:

http://www.myspace.com/grandpontgenie

http://www.d9beehive.com/pics/animated-eu-flag.gif

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Owen Hargreaves
CJ Bolland

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

mark, why!?

xpost

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Henry V :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

why not?

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Fit Finlay

― White Collar Boxer (DomPassantino), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I trust the European Parliament and the European Commission far more than I would trust Blairbrown, Cameron and Campbell combined.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

i like europe... just y'know, not so much the EU.

xpost

democratic mandate much?

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:09 (seventeen years ago) link

Given that Britain is an island off the European continent, I don't know why anyone expects Britain to be that "European" anyway.

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.iep.utm.edu/images/bacon-francis.jpg

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/graphics/large/bacon.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

both of them!

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link

I agree it has to change, but you have to be in it to change it. the more we engage with them, the more likely it will change. Shouting abuse from the sidelines has achieved nothing and will achieve nothing.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Show us a map that says "Europe" and "England" in equal sized letters, Tom!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

But Francis Bacon was Irish...

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Shouting abuse from the sidelines has achieved nothing and will achieve nothing.

tell that to Alex Ferguson

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Samuel Beckett! I know he was Irish, but he was born before Home Rule

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:12 (seventeen years ago) link

... Proddy Irish as well

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

bryan ferry

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

"But Francis Bacon was Irish..."

i think he was just born there. i don't think his parents were irish. i could be wrong though.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm pretty sure they were Irish

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

given that the Isle of Wight is an island off the coast of England I don't know why anyone expects the Isle of Wight to be that "English" anyway.

given that Staten Island is an island off the coast of the USA I don't know why anyone expects Staten Island to be that "American" anyway.

given that Gotland is an island off the coast of Sweden I don't know why anyone expects Gotland to be that "Swedish" anyway.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

... the Isle of Man isn't very English

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Ireland isn't very English!

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

culturally the UK has had 400 beautiful years of freedom from brussels i mean roman bureaucrats; why do you want to end it mark, why? ;_;

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, Staten Island, that's a really good comparison isn't it?

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

james mason

― a_p (a_p), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:17 (seventeen years ago) link

oh shit:

JANE BIRKIN

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Francis Bacon was born in 63 Lower Baggot Street, Dublin, to English parents. His father, Eddy Bacon, was a forty year old retired Hussars Captain, recently turned thoroughbred racehorse-trainer. His mother Winnie (née Firth) was twenty-six and noted for her outgoing, gregarious nature, in stark contrast to her highly-strung and argumentative husband. Francis was cared for by the family nurse, thirty nine year old Jessie Lightfoot. A sickly child with asthma and a violent allergy to dogs and horses, Bacon was often given morphine to ease suffering during attacks. The family changed houses often, and moved back and forth between Ireland and England several times during this period, leading to a feeling of displacement that would stay with the artist throughout his life. In 1911 the family lived in Cannycourt House near Kilcullen, County Kildare, but later moved to Westbourne Terrace, London, close by to where Eddy Bacon worked at the Territorial Force Records Office.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

(code for 'picture thread')

xpost to self

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

a brilliant comparison, Tom D., but then it would be, coz I made it.

to free us from our own bureaucrats who are even worse!

Oh and Enrique, you might not realise this, but you know that thing called the Daily Mail that gets posted thru yr letterbox every morning. Well, some of the things written in it AREN'T TRUE!

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

no-one has said Momus

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:19 (seventeen years ago) link

enrq only gets the Mail for Fred Bassett

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:19 (seventeen years ago) link

momus wins

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Winston Churchill, maybe? Or am I not getting the question?

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

How about LONG ISLAND

― jw (ex machina), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

GOOD POINT

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

churchill hated europeans!

he had to bomb the shit out of many of them just so they'd step off.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

given that the Isle of Wight is an island off the coast of England I don't know why anyone expects the Isle of Wight to be that "English" anyway.
given that Staten Island is an island off the coast of the USA I don't know why anyone expects Staten Island to be that "American" anyway.

given that Gotland is an island off the coast of Sweden I don't know why anyone expects Gotland to be that "Swedish" anyway.

Given that Britain is an island off the coast of Ireland I don't know why anyone expects Britain to be that "Irish" anyway.

Given that the Falklands are islands off the coast of Argentina I don't know why anyone expects the Falklands to be that "Argentinian" anyway.

Given that the Moon is a satellite orbiting the Earth I don't know why anyone expects the Moon to be that "Earthy" anyway.

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Give The Moon Back To The Moonish

― resumo impetus (blueski), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Ireland isn't very English!

Whoa there. Ireland is not "off the coast" of England. It is beside it.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:25 (seventeen years ago) link

descended from italian sephardic jews

http://www.nndb.com/people/960/000086702/disraeli-1.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link

The question remains - what is "great european"? Someone who is "great" (a can or worms by itself, I should imagine) who is distintly European as opposed to British, French, German, Maltese whatever? In which case, is there anyone of any nationality who fits that description?

― Johnney B's got a system (stigoftdumpilx), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:29 (seventeen years ago) link

napoleon.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:31 (seventeen years ago) link

any pope.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

charlemagne

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

d00ds ROBERT MAXWELL so soon we forget

― mark sinker (mark s), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Thomas More sprang to my mind as well.

― Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

And anyway, the links to Europe are one thing, our links to the Commonwealth are far greater. By the very virtue of Britain being a political creation (as opposed to cultural or historical) our links all over the world, and the (mostly) inclusive way that we have fed off teh colonies (and visa versa) means that British influence stretches far beyond Europe anyway.

xpost But when you think Napoleon, you think french guy, not european tho.

― Johnney B's got a system (stigoftdumpilx), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

any pope except adrian iv

― mark sinker (mark s), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, in what way can a British person show their colours as a great European?

I've always thought of the fictional character Stephen Maturin as a great European. Hated Napoleon slightly more than he hated the English, Irish-Spanish background, desire to see national borders eliminated in the name of learning and science, loved laudanum.

That last part might not be relevant.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Ted Heath!

― neil stewart (nstewart), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, Erasmus dedicated Praise of Folly to him. You don't get much more European that! (x-post)

― Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

when i think of great european americans i think of people like martin scorsese and henry james.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Alcuin

― Michael White (Miguelito), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

or david lynch. david lynch is a great european.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

and madonna

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

that's why i thought of francis bacon cuz he's kinda from ireland and he's kinda not and he could be from germany. and people love him all over.

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, I agree with Scott.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

l0uis J4gger

― bliss (blass), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

our links to the Commonwealth are far greater

I'd say *were* greater, Johnney. I think they are pretty non existent now in any meaningful way that isn't historical. It's not even true in a "it's where all our recent immigrants came from" way that would give it some sense of community and cohesion, as many more recent immigrants are from non-Commonwealth countries in the world at large and, if we're talking about very recently, the EU!

I think the next shop to open on Cowley Road will be a Polish deli.

Last time the Commonwealth meant anything - as an effective lobby against south africa's apartheid regime. Now that apartheid has gone, what is it for exactly? Countires that are not in any way English speaking or past members of the British Empire have joined now eg Mozambique (ex-Portuguese).

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:40 (seventeen years ago) link

but the links with the commonwealth are still stronger than the links with, say, poland. that'll change but as trading partners, etc, not just provider of immigrants, india or kenya have been more important.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Marlborough

― Michael White (Miguelito), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Isn't Mozambique the only one, Mark? Even so, doesn't the fact they WANT to join indicate that it must have a purpose?

Or perhaps they've got some mediocre athletes who want to win something for a change.

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link

I meant rather "old empire" as opposed to commonwealth, I guess. The list of people who could be claimed to be great British-Indian or British-Carribbean are certainly more extensive, and that's because of our links. And even now, these links are feeding into British culture and informing every area of thought. While our links with europe are a little more tenious considering the last 100 years of history, and has been pointed out, why on earth would we have historical links with Romania or Poland?

My point is that even if you accept that we don't have any "great europeans", that isn't of itself a bad thing, when we've got great British people to be proud of, and British in the all-inclusive, multi-racial sense.

― Johnney B's got a system (stigoftdumpilx), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

they think it has a purpose when they look in from outside maybe.

it's like the Freemasons. They have that big building in the middle of London and you look at it and think "Wow! that must have a purpose" But if you join you find its all funny handshakes and leather aprons.

but mebee you are spot on re the mediocre athletes thang.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:49 (seventeen years ago) link

DO NOT DESTROY MINE ILLUSIONS!!!

― in the case of masonic attack (kate), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link

why on earth would we have historical links with Romania or Poland?

we have historical links with most countries in Europe actually Johnney, as most of them either are of have been monarchies and our royal family are related to them, admittedly sometimes only thru marriage. If you are going to focus on history then our links w/ Europe are actually as strong as our links with the Commonwealth. Maybe its chiefly the focus which changes.

What is surprising about Poland is that no member of their royal family ever married a member of ours, but maybe it isn't that surprising given that the country ceased to be independent for a couple of hundred years.

The Poles v briefly ruled Moscow, did you know that??

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

mark, srsly, you are not going to convince anyone that the UK has as strong historical links with poland as with india.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:54 (seventeen years ago) link

greatest european polish brit:

http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/autoren/bilder/conrad1.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Worrabout Shelley or Byron?

― Errol Dunkley (NickB), Friday, 16 February 2007 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

greatest anglo irish scottish african european camel lover and original blitz kid:

http://www.library.rdg.ac.uk/colls/special/featureditem/lawrence/IWM%20lawrence.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Dammit I was gonna do Conrad.

Okay, David Hume or Ludwig Wittgenstein.

― It's Expected I'm Maud Gonne (Modal Fugue), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Isaac Newton?

― step hen faps (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Any pre-20th century Freemason, basically.

― It's Expected I'm Maud Gonne (Modal Fugue), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link

oh, oh!

t. s. eliot

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I say George Sandeman, not that I know anything about him really.

― Tim (Tim), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link

(as a man, I mean)

― Tim (Tim), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Eliot was a good European like Mussolini.

― It's Expected I'm Maud Gonne (Modal Fugue), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link

ambiguous

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Seven types of.

― It's Expected I'm Maud Gonne (Modal Fugue), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:43 (seventeen years ago) link

nasty evil eliot was a good friend to empson, otw.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think of Eliot as Evil. He just had robust political opinions. Pound was probably il miglior European anyway.

― It's Expected I'm Maud Gonne (Modal Fugue), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I haven't told you what prompted this thread. Last August I was on a trip to Romania and I visited a park in the north of Bucharest called Herãstrãu. In the park there was a monument with a series of bronze heads around the EU star symbol and the area was marked off with Eu and Romanian flags on poles. The monument was to commemorate the entry of Romania into the EU and they were a bit quick off the mark coz it wasn't due to happen for another five months.

There were represnetatives from various European countries depicted there. In some ways I had wished that I had taken note of their names so I could check on wikipedia later to find out who they were and what they'd done. I remember that one of them was a dude from Luxembourg.

I took a pic of the only one I'd ever heard of - Konrad Adenauer - West Germany's first post-war chancellor and a guy who was safe in the knowledge that, no matter how bad he was, he couldn't be worse than his predecessor....

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:49 (seventeen years ago) link

http://a259.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/42/m_72a92e1ad8cfe8fcec8fcbd1a1e36aea.jpg

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 16 February 2007 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link

I second Neil w/ Ted Heath. Took us into the EEC (as was) after all and constantly at odds with the generally anti-European Tories from then until his demise.

Maybe Peter Mandelson qualifies. Maybe it is too early to tell.

I would really like to see a dept of the EU relocate to London. Would help to inprove a sense of belonging.

― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 19 February 2007 09:42 (seventeen years ago) link

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