Are paralyzed people necessarily numb?

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My friend thinks that people paralyzed by spinal cord injuries are numb in the parts that they can't move. I.e. if a guy breaks his spine and thus can't move his legs, you could stick a fork in his foot and he wouldn't know it. I think otherwise and that paralyzed people usually can feel their limbs perfectly. Which of us is right?

― Logged Outt (Logged Outt), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Umm if you're talking about like spinal cord disconnects then my understanding is that you're wrong, and that in most cases the break goes both ways (no "move muscle" signals run from brain to lower body, and no "ouch pain" signals run from lower body to brain). There are a zillion ways people can become paralyzed, though -- e.g. degenerative neurological diseases or muscular-atrophy things -- so yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of cases where there's some amount of sensation throughout the body.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:45 (seventeen years ago) link

My husband had a nasty accident years ago with a shotgun, the barrel of which exploded in his hand. It shot the little finger on his left hand off, but he can still feel it sometimes as though it's still there. Watching him try to scratch an itch on a missing digit is weirdly amusing.

― C J (C J), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I misread this as "Are paralyzed people necessarily dumb?"

― i kick hoostenical flows/spit spat what's that (hoosteen), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

xposts were intended, i swear.

― i kick hoosteenical flows/spit spat what's that (hoosteen), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, if the break is that complete, how to account for cases where the arms are paralyzed but the heart and lungs still work? Surely if the break is above where the arm nerves come out, it's also above where the heart nerve comes out?

― Logged Outt (Logged Outt), Friday, 15 December 2006 21:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Ok so quick research suggests that while the answer to your thread title is obviously "no" (not necessarily), your friend is probably closer to right in this argument. If there's a complete spinal-cord disconnect, like total paralysis below a certain point, then obviously no sensation is traveling in the other direction either -- and that would seem to be what you were talking about. Whereas with partial injuries you can get any level or arrangement of movement or sensation -- but they still tend to go together, so if a limb is sensate, it probably has some possibility of movement, too. So while it remains not a bright idea to run up to everyone in a mouth-guided wheelchair and stick cutlery in their shins, you're wrong to imagine there are spinal-injury folks whose lower bodies have zero movement but full sensation.

Xpost I'm not a doctor and can't explain the heart-and-lungs shit, but my not-particularly-wild guess would be that it has to do with their being involuntary operations that aren't being regulated or communicated in quite the same thing as voluntary body control.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:02 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco's xpost is true. if paralysis resulted in loss of unconscious commands to the organ system then paralyzed people would all be dead.

― friday on the porch (lfam), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:05 (seventeen years ago) link

and i also misread numb as dumb. sorta bummed out

― friday on the porch (lfam), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:05 (seventeen years ago) link

numb bum

― C J (C J), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually dude just look up "Spinal Injury" on Wikipedia, it should answer all your questions. (For instance, if the injury's as high up as the third cervical vertebra, you actually do lose diaphragm control, and have to be put on a ventilator.) It gets all complex and variable to the point where you can't generalize about a lot of stuff, but the basic rule remains that when it comes to spinal-trauma types of paralysis, if you really have zero control over a limb -- total paralysis -- in nearly all cases you won't be able to feel it, either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_injury

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not a doctor and can't explain the heart-and-lungs shit, but my not-particularly-wild guess would be that it has to do with their being involuntary operations that aren't being regulated or communicated in quite the same thing as voluntary body control.

This depends on where the main nerve branches come off the spinal column. Break your neck high enough and you'll be on a ventilator. Higher still and your heart will stop. But that's up around C1/C2, which are really tough to break and right under your skull. And, yeah, you can get partial nerve damage and what not, so motor function might be impaired while some sensation is preserved. With degenerative disorders, I think you get a much wider range of impairment/preservation. Bear in mind: some paraplegics can still have/enjoy sex.

xp!

― baby wizard sex (gbx), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I think it varies from person to person, injury to injury. Like you could probably stab some people in wheelchairs with forks, and some not. That sounds more flip than I want it to. Some quads can move their arms in various ways and some not so much. Same with paras.

― Mr. Que (Party with me Punker), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, it's all over the place, especially if you're not just talking about spinal injuries. But judging by the first post, Loggedout seemed to be telling his friend there can be like one-way spinal cord paralysis, which doesn't seem very possible. Like there are infinite varieties here, but if a part of your body's been disconnected from the central nervous system, that's gonna go for moving and feeling both.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:12 (seventeen years ago) link

totally offtopic but kinda rad:

pops just sent me an email detailing how he and his partner gave a guy an esophagus (removed from cancer) made from a length of his own BOWEL (the jejunum, to be specific). RAD!

― baby wizard sex (gbx), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:14 (seventeen years ago) link

A member of my family is in a wheelchair (he's a para) and, you know, can't walk at all. But his legs itch sometimes and if I threaten to punch him in the leg, I do this because I know that he can somewhat feel it.

The documentary Murderball was excellent at explaining (albeit a little indirectly) this sort of thing.

― Mr. Que (Party with me Punker), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know about you guys, but I find the jejunum a tad ... pedestrian.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

OMG WTF you weren't at my house on Tuesday! "Pedestrian" is the word of the week on Park Place.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 15 December 2006 22:58 (seventeen years ago) link

if I threaten to punch him in the leg, I do this because I know that he can somewhat feel it

wtf

"Stop feeling phantom pains or I'll give you some real pain to cry about!"

― hoo got it for steen, vol. 2 (hoosteen), Friday, 15 December 2006 23:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Gawd, are you my parents? "What's wrong -- your finger hurts? Here, let me cut off the other one; you won't even notice the splinter!"

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 15 December 2006 23:20 (seventeen years ago) link

one year passes...

??
"i kick hoostenical flows/spit spat what's that"

― d, Sunday, 20 January 2008 22:42 (sixteen years ago) link

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