the ethics of santa

i mean, y'know, he's santa he's got no budgetary constraints he can get you anything you want and you're four years old and your parents might well be choosing btwn the rent and your uncomprimising desires and the times that're in it and all that

santa doesn't give gifts to ungrateful children obv

linking humility to reward was the greatest cod ever pulled tbf but that's kinda a separate issue

he hates Jews

Undersized workers in sweatshop conditions.

this is a srs thread for srs issues u guys

the ethics of krampus

Shills for C0ca-C0la

this was a serious question ;_;

don't have children

santa in the gutter

imo Santa is an important stepping stone for when later in life, you have to explain to your children that Jesus also does not exist

yeah dmac i basically agree w/ you but i mean v few things in our society seem to have been structured so that they dont fuck over poor ppl idk

I'm unclear as to what the question is here.

do they know it's christmas time at all?

xp to lamp that's a pov, true, but i can't think of anything else along the lines of social constructs that puts such complete control over the definition of expectations in the hands (minds) of kids

lol advertising?

silby the question is is santa fair and if santa isn't fair then idk should we maybe start looking at the santa issue, how are we to do that in a practical sense, phased santa withdrawal where kids born from say tomorrow just get told straight up (if it ever comes up_ 'no, no santa i'm afraid we have to buy all that shit so y'know bear that in mind' or whether there should be a blanket ban on santa from this year for all kids or y'know w/ever

well it's all obv intrinsically a 'lol advertising' question

also lol idealism and lol the education system ime tbph

san dimas high school football rules

hey since the economy still looks like it might take a century-long yawn how practical/noble/admirable is it to instill within our children a sky's-the-limit consumerism via the big jolly guy from NP

also: how is this not one more way to program poor children to think they are worth less?

(sorry i like to rephrase things)

also: how is this not one more way to program poor children to think they are worth less?

the existence or the termination of santa?

my intent was 'existence' as in 'santa can't give you what you want bcz'

yeah, what i'm saying

I remember seeing some list of kid's most desired xmas gifts this year and it was something like "ipad, iphone, psp..." - the first thing I thought was how tragic that was, how many people out there can really afford to get their kids those things?

my parents raised me not to be greedy so like when we were kids we'd ask for stuff but we kinda understood we wouldn't necessarily get it.

my parents spoiled us anyway but we never really thought we were 'entitled' to it. I remember some of the kids I grew up with who basically bitched and moaned when their parents had to choose between two high button items on the kids' list instead of getting them both.

really the only thing I hinted heavily at was my first electric guitar when I was 14....

I mean millions can, I guess, like these things are generally priced at a rate that's okay for a splurgy middle class, it's more that there're just as many who can't and those kids still know what an ipad is and want one and know their friends have em. etc. xp to myself

my parents raised me not to be greedy so like when we were kids we'd ask for stuff but we kinda understood we wouldn't necessarily get it.

my parents spoiled us anyway but we never really thought we were 'entitled' to it. I remember some of the kids I grew up with who basically bitched and moaned when their parents had to choose between two high button items on the kids' list instead of getting them both.

kind of a knowledge of the parents-behind-the-scenes thing here, though, if i'm reading you correctly?

well....yeah, because my asshole friend spoiled the truth for me at age 7 or 8

good point tho. I keep forgetting that the myth of Santa was gone from my life much earlier than most kids.

i kinda think when I have kids I won't do the Santa thing w/ em other than teaching em it's an ok fantasy, but making them promise not to ruin it for other kids who do believe (LIKE MY ASSHOLE FRIEND)

[imy parents raised me not to be greedy so like when we were kids we'd ask for stuff but we kinda understood we wouldn't necessarily get it.[/i

Same here, so d does this go to yr point in that case? Be straight up w/kids from v young age and basically say "yo santa is made up, we're the one who will get you gifts and we cant afford to get you whatever you like, you know, so be reasonable" ?

I grew up that way so it seems fair to me tbh.

wow i really effed up that bbcode.

I'm jewish and one of my parents' favorite stories of toddler-me is when I told off a mall santa who tried to talk to me. prob not gonna raise my kids religious but I just cannot imagine doing the santa thing. also I think I will tell them to ruin it for other kids.

I'm thinking of inventing Christmas Carl and basically teaching my future kids* that through the magic of Christmas finance, his salary always equals the same as mine so he can't go buckwild, and if the kids mouth off he will shit in their stockings.

(*me having kids, that's a larf)

When is it normal for kids to find out that there is no Santa?

I think it depends on how stupid the kids are

or how spoiled

I expect around age 6 or 7 is pretty normal. You're in first grade. Even if you have no older siblings to spill the beans to you, many of your classmates will have older sibs and they'll be quick to set you straight.

oh I guess I just think that regardless of the socio-economic assumptions that underlie the santa myth that lying to children is a shitty thing to do. I don't even really see the point of establishing santa claus as the source of xmas presents in the first place. xps to somebody

LOL I still semi believed in santa til I was about 8 which is fucking embarrasing and when ppl at school found out they all laughed at me.

parents need Santa to be another pair of eyes while they're busy at work

you were not sleeping

you wanted to believe

he sees you when you're sleeping/he sees you when you pee/he knows what you did with that girl/and how you got VD

fwiw I'm jewish w/ interfaith parents and we would get some stuff from "santa" on xmas but I don't know how big a deal was ever really made of it. I think the whole point was that the presents ~appeared as if by magic while we slept~ in the stockings.

actually one thign I remember that my parents did was they labeled some gifts from Santa, some from them

i remember wondering why Santa had the same shitty handwriting as my dad

and why he was trying to force his love for Chicago's 19 album on me

oh I guess I just think that regardless of the socio-economic assumptions that underlie the santa myth that lying to children is a shitty thing to do. I don't even really see the point of establishing santa claus as the source of xmas presents in the first place. xps to somebody

well I think it comes down to the fact that most kids have learned that their parents are filled w/ not-credible-threats when it comes to them misbehaving so you invent a 3rd party that can seem like it has credible-threats. I'm not sure it's morally wrong to lie about this anymore than it is to make any other not-credible-threat. doesn't have that much to do w/ 'the magic of xmas' I think but...or maybe I'm wrong again I didn't do this.

thinking over it more why would you want santa to get all the credit for giving your kid an awesome gift? you're really giving up a lot in the process.

maybe it's that they want the kid to blame Santa for getting them the Radio Shack version of Laser Tag cuz it was cheaper than the real one

hmm that makes sense, santa gives all the crappy gifts, parents give all the good ones

Hanukkah Harry: Yes, Santa, he had a stomach virus, so I'm filling in, bringing toys to all the Gentile boys and girls. Now Christine, Santa told me you've been very good. So I'm being especially nice to you. (hands her a present)

Christine: (excitedly rips open her gift) Socks?!

Hanukkah Harry: EIGHT pair, can you believe it?! And Scott, for you, some slacks!

[Scott opens a box with a pair of men's pants.]

Hanukkah Harry: They're a little big, but you'll grow into 'em.

Same here, so d does this go to yr point in that case?

yeah trayce i think so?

i found all of our presents in a wardrobe upstairs when i was 5 and i remember telling my older brother and he cried and then battered me.

istr the standard age being about 9 or 10 but i come from a very backwards place tbf

santa as behaviour-modifier isn't effective enough for adults to be using that excuse (i mean really as a valid threat it only works from prob dec 1st or so onwards, and arguably at that)

thinking over it more why would you want santa to get all the credit for giving your kid an awesome gift? you're really giving up a lot in the process.

i dunno, i mean there is a kind of magic to the whole setup tbf, the secrecy and the winking over their heads and the panto of the night before and the payoff of the mornign creep down the stairs, tho tbf my niece is four and probably didn't really get it last year and will probably be clued-up in another few years so the window of opportunity for all of that stuff is probably very short

course, just cos they find out there's no santa providing the stuff doesn't mean the expectations or the demands get any less, maybe i'm laying all the blame at the wrong door

i remember christmas eve the year it was obvious that it was going to be my little sister's last year believing. my mam being really upset that we weren't going to have santa in our house any more. i think in terms of it being about this sense of magic its understandable. i mean its more like fiction than lying, you wouldn't want to tell somebody how a magic trick works.

santa exacerbating capitalist excess on the other hand.

my mam being really upset that we weren't going to have santa in our house any more.

people do sometimes talk about how Santa is all about bringing a little bit of magic into the small people's lives, but I reckon it is far more about parents getting some cheap entertainment out of the little bastards.

p sure thats why people have kids though

p sure people have kids so that they can do the chores the parents no longer want to do

My dad used to rub a quarter into his elbow and make it disappear. It was better than santa claus, because you could watch the whole thing from start to finish. He used to steal our noses, too, but we could tell it was just his thumb he was showing us.

yeah I've never got the steal your nose thing, kids might be dumb but that looks nothing like a nose

I expect around age 6 or 7 is pretty normal. You're in first grade. Even if you have no older siblings to spill the beans to you, many of your classmates will have older sibs and they'll be quick to set you straight.

Santa's handwriting was suspiciously similar to my grandmother's.

lying to children is a shitty thing to do

It's normal to lie to children, because it can be a functional teaching tool. Everyone will be lied to all their lives and learning to detect lies is a useful skill. It generally starts with your parents lying to you in harmless and loving ways.

Where the "santa" line gets crossed for me is when adults lie to kids for selfish reasons, for the sole purpose of manipulating them as if they were dolls, not humans. The more powerful this need to manipulate is, the more the kid will resent the whole business when they find out they were being used.

my parents labeled gifts from santa but they didn't try very hard w/ the whole deception thing and i don't remember ever thinking the presents were actually from santa. (my dad insisted they were but his tone was super ironic.) so i don't really Get santa or how christmas is insufficiently magic w/out him but i don't think the lie is like hugely wicked or anything. as for coca-cola, consumerism, corporations hiring psychologist whores to teach them how best to manipulate small children into telling their parents they hate them if they don't get some sweatshop plastic bullshit, well yup; but that's year-round, and anyway don't worry the flood's coming.

the flipside of my parents not trying very hard to actually trick me is that they continued to label presents from santa (and my dad smirkingly continued to insist they were from santa) until i was like 14.

corporations hiring psychologist whores to teach them how best to manipulate small children into telling their parents they hate them if they don't get some sweatshop plastic bullshit

Nicely illustrates my point about manipulative adult lies to kids leading to harsh resentments.