catholics, blacks, jews, women, hispanics, mormons, serial divorcer, old dudes, gays, atheists

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― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

Bullshit.

― g000blar (g00blar), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

they forgot the 'I may be lying here' column

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

Giuliani's screwed

― a.b. (abanana), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

what about gaytheists?

― scott seward (121212), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

They should do combo questions too, like '72 year old homosexual black catholic'

― Captain Purple Items (nu_onimo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

i'm screwed

― a_p (a_p), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

what an Islamophobic poll

― resumo impetus (blueski), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

catholic hispanic woman married for the third time. hello missus president:

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2003_07/jlo2.jpg

― scott seward (121212), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

ok i kind of want her "shirt"

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

Beware the Bradley Effect

― g000blar (g00blar), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

I am more hated than teh gheys!

I saw a panel on CNN a couple weeks ago where a GWU professor was passionately arguing for civil rights & affirmative action, then she did an about-face and essentially said that atheists need to get out of town.

I've been an atheist for 25 years, and this seems like a new attitude? Weird.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

atheists have always been widely reviled by America, this is not a "new" thing.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

"catholics, blacks, jews, women, hispanics, mormons, serial divorcer, old dudes, gays, atheists"

this is a song in the making

― scary german latebloomer (clonefeed), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

i think randy newman may have already written it.

― scott seward (121212), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

it's hard to keep track of his scathing commentaries sung in a folksy oldtyme negro voice though. maybe i'm thinking of david allan coe.

― scott seward (121212), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

this is not a "new" thing.

New to me. Seems like a lot more out-in-the-open hostility then there used to be. Someone on the CNN panel attributed it to "activist atheists".

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

Someone on the CNN panel attributed it to "activist atheists".

that's crazy talk.

I don't think the sentiment against electing atheists is at all new. the pretense in American political discourse that everyone believes in god is longstanding.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

Edward do you remember how hated Madeleine Murray O-Hair was in the 70s...? just one example.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

I'm talking about distrust of atheists in general, not specifically their electability. The CNN panel was reacting to some poll where atheists were ranked lowest in some other area - trustworthiness? I forget.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

(that was xpost to horseshoe)

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, never heard of her - but O'Hair is a great name! Better than O'Hare!

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

Madalyn Murray O'Hair

In 1980, her son William converted to Christianity and was born again at a Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, where he took up work as a preacher. This led to a permanent estrangement between mother and son. As she put it, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times... He is beyond human forgiveness."

Sounds like she earned some of that hatred - what a biyatch!

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

you've been an atheist since 1980 and you've never heard of the founder of the American Atheists...? A notorious and very public figure who was also brutally murdered (ie, in the press all the time)?

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

(um x-post)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

He is beyond human forgiveness

what a completely religious thing to say! what's "beyond human" for an atheist?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

the only current "atheist activist" I can think of is Richard Dawkins - who, like O'Hair, also seems to be a raging asshole. Atheists might wanna get some public spokespersons who are not aggressive jerks.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

you should send 'em your resume!

― a_p (a_p), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

hahaha @ a_p
you've been an atheist since 1980 and you've never heard of the founder of the American Atheists...?

I imagine there's a lot of people in blue states who just don't think about it much.

― Del Monte Young (ex machina), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

buh? I'm not an atheist

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

yeah i really wonder what image that 53% has in their heads. probably a combination of jim morrison and lenin or some shit

― urghonomic (gcannon), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:22 (nineteen years ago)

"Atheists might wanna get some public spokespersons who are not aggressive jerks."

Aren't public spokespersons basically synonymous with aggressive jerks?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

lolz @ Jim Morrison as an atheist!!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

"let's start a new religion, worshipping ME - Bozo Dionysus!"

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

I think the problem is that most atheists don't really feel a need to further their "cause", because they don't see it as a cause, and don't wish to convert anyone. Though based on those figures maybe they should get some more active spokespersons, at least in the US.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

shakey i don't think the "silent majority" and its heirs really give a fuck about the ins and outs of 60s era counter cultural spirituality.

― ogo (gcannon), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU

― Del Monte Young (ex machina), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

"Though based on those figures maybe they should get some more active spokespersons, at least in the US."

I think this would possibly be the worst idea ever.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

i really wonder what image that 53% has in their heads

― ogo (gcannon), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

you've been an atheist since 1980 and you've never heard of the founder of the American Atheists...?

Sorry, not a card-carrying member.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

i love the dude when he says "SHUT UP"!! Also any good responses to youtube group.

― Del Monte Young (ex machina), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

true nuff

still there are plenty of christians who can tell the difference between a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a pagan, and an atheist.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

"Though based on those figures maybe they should get some more active spokespersons, at least in the US."

I think this would possibly be the worst idea ever.

What else can you do, if you want to get rid of such distrust?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost to geoff)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

move to liberal finland?

― Del Monte Young (ex machina), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-jjDLKMswM

Dawkins on it

― Del Monte Young (ex machina), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

"What else can you do, if you want to get rid of such distrust?"

Probably nothing.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe they should go for the name "agnostic" instead of "atheist", because a lot of people read that last one as "anti-theist" and thus feel threatened?

― Eva van Rein (Gaia1981), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

atheism and agnosticism are two different things.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:42 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I would be offended if someone called me agnostic.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 16 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

atheism's central tenet is that religion is basically wrong - how could any religious institution not see that as a threat?

Atheism's central tenet is that there is no God. If a religious institution feels "threatened" by that belief, then they are paranoid.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

you've been an atheist since 1980 and you've never heard of the founder of the American Atheists...? A notorious and very public figure who was also brutally murdered (ie, in the press all the time)?

Was it confirmed that she was brutally murdered? I thought that she went the Jimmy Hoffa route.

― PPlains (PPlains), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

ACTIVIST ATHEISTS SWARM FORMATION NOW

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

atheism's central tenet is that religion is basically wrong - how could any religious institution not see that as a threat?

Atheism's central tenet is that there is no God. If a religious institution feels "threatened" by that belief, then they are paranoid.

I'd actually take that further and say that if a religious person feels threatened by an atheist, it's probably a reaction to their own insecurity about their religious beliefs.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:10 (nineteen years ago)

"Yeah, but this is different than saying it's a reactionary stance. Otherwise you could claim that, for example, being a muslim is a reactionary stance against christianity."

I think its reactionary in the sense that everyone is exposed to religious ideas in some form or another as a child (and even moreso as an adult), and that atheism springs from a rejection of those ideas, whatever form they may take.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

He is beyond human forgiveness
what a completely religious thing to say! what's "beyond human" for an atheist?

-- horseshoe (rosalind51...), February 21st, 2007. (later)

Nothing; that's why the speaker cannot forgive him. It's not an inherently religious thing to say. He has passed the capacity for human forgiveness and as such cannae be forgave.

― Will M. (Will M.), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

"I'd actually take that further and say that if a religious person feels threatened by an atheist, it's probably a reaction to their own insecurity about their religious beliefs."

well duh. that doesn't make it any less threatening.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

"Was it confirmed that she was brutally murdered? I thought that she went the Jimmy Hoffa route."

it went unsolved for a long time, but yes, bodies were found, case was prosecuted, etc.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:15 (nineteen years ago)

What if you're raised an atheist? Furthermore, atheism doesn't necessarily come from active rejection of anything. In my case, for example, it felt pretty much like a logical conclusion. I wasn't strongly indoctrinated into any religion, so I didn't feel like I was rejecting anything. Of course you could say that every part of your worldview is a rejection of some other, alternative point of view, but I find that a wrongheaded way of putting things.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

If choosing a path is reactionary then all paths are reactionary. Is Christianity reactionary in relation to Judiasm?

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

what about a vegetarian

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

a buddhist

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

taoist

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

asian

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

Again, you could claim that Christianity is a rejection of atheism, because no doubt most Christians have to face the idea of the nonexistence of god at one point or another.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

(xxx-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

how? when god is omnipresent?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

I was somehow left completely devoid of a religious education as a child (despite both my parents being Christians of a sort, my brother was baptized, and my extended family are all highly religious). It just never happened. Never went to church, never made to pray, nada.

I was, however, exposed to Christianity (as all Americans are) through the culture. But I never reacted against that (aside from joking about Satan-worship in school).

For me atheism isn't a reaction to anything - God never entered the picture for me to react against.

― milo (milo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, we seem to have another form of non-religion: ietsism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism

― Eva van Rein (Gaia1981), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

My take on the "threatening" or "distrustful" bit of atheists is that if you believe that proper ethics/morals/codes of behavior can come from religious systems, you'd see someone as w/o religion as also being amoral, evil, or more likely to commit evil due to lack of moral discipline, etc.

― they be stealin' kingfish's bucket (kingfish), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

"Is Christianity reactionary in relation to Judiasm?"

haha given the history of Christianity and its roots actually yes, it is.

obviously how "reactionary" something is depends on what came first. I would hope this is a fairly simple concept to grasp. Seeing as how the religious instinct is at the basic, historical root of human culture, I don't have any problem assigning it a primary role.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

what the fuck is Stephen A. Smith doing in that CNN clip?

― milo (milo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

Wow. Somehow, I had missed Part Two of O'Hair's disappearance.

― PPlains (PPlains), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

xp and yet he's the sanest one there.

― milo (milo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

yeah - went from accompanying a diaper-clad Larry Flynt to the Supreme Court to being murdered for some rare coins. crazy shit.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

(um more xpost)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

obviously how "reactionary" something is depends on what came first.

I think you're overlooking the pejorative nature of the term "reactionary," which implies a lack of validity in the viewpoint being espoused.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't mean to imply any lack of validity, sorry. I assumed an understanding of "reactionary" as meaning characterized by reaction.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

That's probably why all these atheists be fighting wit you.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

Fighting? this is a pretty civil conversation for ILE!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

a silly argument

― deej (deej), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

This is a key point, but I'd say "if you believe that proper ethics/morals/codes of behavior can only come from religious systems." Atheists can be moral people, and have the same struggles of conscience that religious people have. Apparently that's a mind-blowing concept for religious people.

If religious people are inherently more moral than atheists why are there so many religious people in jail?

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

a silly argument

silly for you! my people are being persecuted!

maybe *I* should be the atheist spokesperson.

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

you're being persecuted by shakey mo?

― deej (deej), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

to the rack with him

― Shakey Mo Torquemada (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

shakey mo pelted me with rocks and garbage

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

is rachel ray an atheist?

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

Atheists can be moral people, and have the same struggles of conscience that religious people have. Apparently that's a mind-blowing concept for religious people.

Except that we're not talking about "religious people", we're talking about a very specific subset(sizeable tho it is). And for this subset, yeah, they see atheists as immoral/amoral folks. This ain't something they have evidence about or have necessarily reasoned into, but it's there.

― they be stealin' kingfish's bucket (kingfish), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

Atheists can be moral people, and have the same struggles of conscience that religious people have. Apparently that's a mind-blowing concept for 53% of religious people.

okay, corrected

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

A long time ago, matter gave rise to living beings. These living beings developed many mechanisms for survival. Some of these beings developed a survival mechanism known as fear, or anxiety. Eventually, up rose man, a being of great cognitive ability, who could understand, manipulate, and create abstractions, including "why" and "death". These abstractions, chief amongst many others, triggered the primary survival mechanism, fear. There was no known way to survive indefinitely, and this caused man pain. In order to stop that fear, man created false ideas that turned off the fear. Some of these false ideas are called god.

God is man's first cure for anxiety disorder.

Most people are more afraid of their absolute mortality than they are of hell. This is why they hate and distrust atheists.

― After two days in hospital I took a turn for the nurse. (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rain, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:39 (nineteen years ago)

"Annoying contrarian" aren't on that poll, so it can't be accurate.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:47 (nineteen years ago)

Just to be clear, are you referring to me as an annoying contrarian?

― After two days in hospital I took a turn for the nurse. (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rain, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 19:57 (nineteen years ago)

No, dear, just me, although you're welcome to join us.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 20:21 (nineteen years ago)

So you let in paranoids, then. Excellent.

― After two days in hospital I took a turn for the nurse. (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rain, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

this poll demonstrates conclusively that Ayn Rand would lose to Richard Simmons, who would lose to Dennis Hopper, who would lose to Salman Rushdie, who would lose to Glenn Beck, who would lose to Jimmy Smits, who would lose to Hillary Rodham Clinton, who would lose to Chuck Schumer, who would lose to Tavis Smiley, who would lose to the Pope

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not really surprised by this poll

the whole thing: http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=26611

― a.b. (abanana), Wednesday, 21 February 2007 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

2 things:

1. whoops, forgot to turn on killfile! shakey problem fixed.
2. it's really freaking me the fuck out that mitt romney is running and that maybe people will vote for him. people, he is mormon. i was raised mormon. they are fucking crazy and evil. you don't know crazy and evil. this isn't just about personal belief. it's about an entire, malignant worldview that will fuck everyone over. anyone even remotely connected to the religion will take it as a mandate from god like you wouldn't even believe and actively work for their armaggeddon fantasies like you wouldn't believe. mormons are PROFOUNDLY anti-human. people complain about bush using god as justification for his fantasy world--YOU DON'T EVEN FUCKING KNOW. AND THERE WILL BE ARNOLD FRIEBERG PAINTINGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. DON'T DO IT AMERICA, IT WILL DESTROY YOU.

― mattp (mattp), Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:12 (nineteen years ago)

hahaha that anti-mormon screed's even harsher than mine!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

ok sorry shakey i don't really totally hate you, sometimes i just turn off 'prolific' posters for my cowardly lurking reading habits!

― mattp (mattp), Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:26 (nineteen years ago)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/killfilesarefortheweak.jpg

― Nu-Edward III (edward iii), Thursday, 22 February 2007 01:55 (nineteen years ago)

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