A or An: Probably a very basic grammar question.

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Okay, I always thought if it's a vowel you should use "an":

an elephant, an auction, an interview, an orange etc, and an house if you're from London.

However, this convention falls down when you get to U:

a university, a ukulele, a Ukranian but an understanding.

Why is this?

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:52 (nineteen years ago)

It's not about the spelling, it's about the sounds. Uncle, umbrella and ugly duckling begin with the letter 'u', but more importantly with a vowel sound. University, ukelele, and Ukranian begin with the letter 'u' but a consonant sound (the same sound which is at the start of yes, yellow and yoghurt).

Similarly we say 'a horse' and 'a hedgehog' because these begin with a consonant sound, but we say 'an hour' and 'an honest man' because these begin with a vowel sound as the 'h' is silent.

― Teh HoBBx (HoBB), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:59 (nineteen years ago)

"....and an house if you're from London."

Or Australia.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:00 (nineteen years ago)

It's also 'a hotel', or 'an hotel' if you want to sound like an halfwit.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

It's the sound, not the actual vowel. Those examples you used start with a "y" sound - "yooniversity". It's still "an" for soft vowel sounds starting with a "u", e.g. an umbrella.

An house, an hospital is because of you southerners and your (h)aitch-dropping ways.

xpost

― ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

(see also when you're speaking letters out loud = "you'll have to put an "x" in there", or wahtever, or "there's a "u" in honour", that sort of thing. The convention is pretty much to say it out loud to yourself and if it sounds better with an "an" then use that.)

*waits for one of the copyeditor grammar fiends to tell me there's a better rule than that*

― ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:07 (nineteen years ago)

I say 'an hotel', 'an historian' when talking RP english and when not trying to sound posh, clearly i sound like an halfwit all the time.

My sad fascination with speech in effect: I find it really interesting how the rules governing the schwa in 'the' (which are affected by following vowels, when they're not affected by what word you're stressing), are not quite the same as the a/an rules. Of course I can't remember the slight differences, but they are there!

― cis boom bah (cis), Sunday, 18 February 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

"an European" = illogical usage, pain to my ears

And yet I see this all the time. I think it even exists, inexplicably, in a great many style guides.

― a bulldog fed a cookie shaped like a kitten (austin), Sunday, 18 February 2007 13:49 (nineteen years ago)

(h)aitch-dropping ways

― emsk ( emsk ), Sunday, 18 February 2007 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

(h)aitch-dropping ways

noooo! (i am sure you know this but) there is no 'h' to drop at the beginning of AITCH! it is 'AITCH'! not 'HAITCH'! this pisses me off to no end. and i HATE when people say 'haitch' when they're trying to be posh then look at you like you're scum when you pointedly say 'AITCH' back to them. my surname does not start with a 'a haitch', it starts with 'an aitch'. GRRR.

― emsk ( emsk ), Sunday, 18 February 2007 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know how this "an historical"/"an historian" thing started. People rarely say/write "an history", is the curious thing. Except, "an history" does actually feel harder to get your mouth around than "an historical". Perhaps some linguist could explain way.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

I would assume it's because the first syllable in "history" is stressed, which is hard to do when you elide the H

― Goodtime Slim, Uncle Doobie, and the Great Frisco Freakout (bernard snowy), Sunday, 18 February 2007 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

stupid bitch ass second grade teacher I can't remember for sure who but she told me I was WRONG to put AN in front of HOUR because the rule in the elementary english textbook did not make clear the difference between phoneme and orthograph and their relationship in usage. GAH.

this taught me to just sit there quietly and stew when later in third grade the teacher told the class that mercury was hotter than venus. it's a wonder anybody in america learns anything ever.

― TOMB07 (trm), Sunday, 18 February 2007 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

I think "an historical" might come more easily than "an history" because of the stress on the second syllable of the former. Enunciating an "a" before that non-stressed syllable seems like more work to me. You have to clip the "a" to keep it from mushing into that almost-swallowed "his."
Whereas tacking an "an" onto "history" seems tortured, because the stress on the first syllable firms up that "h."

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Sunday, 18 February 2007 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

you shouldn't count history anyway

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 18 February 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

an hooker ate an hot dog

― bliss (blass), Sunday, 18 February 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

I don't even want to get into "ay" vs. "uh"...

― Goodtime Slim, Uncle Doobie, and the Great Frisco Freakout (bernard snowy), Sunday, 18 February 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

Hey dudes, thanks for clearing this up!

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

it is 'AITCH'! not 'HAITCH'

Regional variation, motherfucker!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Sunday, 18 February 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

Regional variation, motherfucker!

Maybe there are places where 'haitch' is considered correct and is used by everyone, but the south-east of England isn't one of those places. You hear both pronunciations, and the people who use the 'haitch' one ARE JUST FUCKING WRONG!

― Teh HoBBx (HoBB), Sunday, 18 February 2007 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

"Haitch" is totally hypercorrection. From the Old French "ache", etc.

― Casuistry (casuistry), Sunday, 18 February 2007 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

Every Australian I've ever spoken to says "HAITCH" for the letter h. I hate it.

Newsreaders in NZ all say "an horrific accident" and "an historic event" but then revert back to "a" for every other h word.

― franny (frannyglass), Sunday, 18 February 2007 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

'An honest man' sounds right to me and surely that's just as stress-on-first-syllable as 'an history'?

I'm pretty sure - remembering vaguely - that the h-words where it's most correct to drop the h and precede them with 'an' are ones with French counterparts whose h is dropped in speech which can be preceded with l' rather than la or le. Therefore 'an hospital' (l'hôpital), but not 'an harp' (la harpe).

I've never heard people say 'haitch' when trying to sound posh, only when trying to sound common!

― cis boom bah (cis), Sunday, 18 February 2007 22:57 (nineteen years ago)

What are they? I thought it was exactly the same situation ('the' pronounced to rhyme with 'tea' before a vowel sound, e.g. the egg, the apple, the orange).

― Teh HoBBx (HoBB), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:37 (nineteen years ago)

In Oz the haitch v aitch divide seems to be on sectarian lines. If you went to a Catholic primary school you're much more likely to say 'haitch' than otherwise.

To me 'haitch' sounds like fingernails down the blackboard, but ultimately so what? A lot of the history-of-language stuff that gets trotted out in discussions like this can easily sound like naked Emperor Prejudice trying to bluff the rest of us into admiring his fine intellectual 'clothes'.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

The h in 'honest', as with other words deriving from 'honor', is silent. Hence 'an honest man'.

Before a phrase like 'horrific accident', for an indef article to be heard at all it would need to be pronounced 'ay'. Or changed to 'an'. The latter may be less complicating than the former, which would introduce the concept of two pronunciations for the same word with the same meaning, which sounds all kinds of alarms in the 'efficiency-anal' section of my brain.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:55 (nineteen years ago)

...oh yeah, it is silent, isn't it. that was intensely stupid of me!

'the-rhymes-with-tea' vs 'thə' - (the problem is i might be skewing it by thinking too hard, but) I think the difference was that while I would say 'a (y)universe' I'd also say 'thee (y)universe'. 'thə universe' is possible but oddly not as natural? I don't know if it's just me, though... it kind of feels like using the-rhymes-with-tea tends to add a 'y'-sound on the beginning of all words with an initial vowel.

― cis boom bah (cis), Monday, 19 February 2007 00:21 (nineteen years ago)

it is 'AITCH'! not 'HAITCH'

Regional variation, motherfucker!

NO, this is fuck all to do with regional variation.

i sometimes wish 'AITCH' was wrong and 'HAITCH' was correct, because i really don't mind people dropping aitches and shit at all, but for some reason it really pisses me off when people are trying on airs and graces AND GETTING IT WRONG ARGH ARGH ARGH.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

I'm reminded of a book I read in high school, set during the Blitz, where there was this Cockney sgt-major type (may have been a policeman) who spoke about the 'Victoria Hembankment' all the time. Apparently this was not uncommon, esp among Cockneys who had to make themselves understood by folk not familiar with the accent, so you got a lot of h's where they shouldn't be but hardly ever where they should.

A TV comedian sending up this tendency in the 70s, called the British PM of the time 'Mister Hedward Eath'.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Monday, 19 February 2007 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

I would say 'a (y)universe' I'd also say 'thee (y)universe'.

really? where do you come from? i'm not sure i've ever heard anyone say "thee (y)universe)," unless there was a pause before (y)universe, as though they were internally debating whether to say "universe" or "galaxy" or something, and thus they were extending the theeeeee. trying it out loud now, it seems like that syllable (the ee of "the") goes on artificially long.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 01:23 (nineteen years ago)

NO, this is fuck all to do with regional variation.

Find me someone from Ireland that doesn't view "Aitch" as mockney clowning, then.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 19 February 2007 03:10 (nineteen years ago)

only people in my school who said haitch were the chavvy ones

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 19 February 2007 05:27 (nineteen years ago)

this thread reminds me of why i got out of radio and got into print :)

― grimly fiendish (simon), Monday, 19 February 2007 08:26 (nineteen years ago)

Saying "haitch", as with saying tea for dinner and whatever else, is correlated with both region and class. It comes from what you're exposed to as a child. It has nothing to do with "people trying on airs and graces AND GETTING IT WRONG" ffs.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 19 February 2007 09:49 (nineteen years ago)

"Haitch" is not hyper-correction. Unbelievably there are countries where people don't speak with an accent that drops hs...jesus crist

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 19 February 2007 10:07 (nineteen years ago)

as long as people know to drop the aitch in 'horrible' i'm cool with whatever.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Monday, 19 February 2007 10:11 (nineteen years ago)

Saying "haitch", as with saying tea for dinner and whatever else, is correlated with both region and class. It comes from what you're exposed to as a child.

yes but people get exposed to things which are wrong. no? i grew up with ppl saying "i do go down the pub", "no she haven't", my all-time favourite "should/would of" etc etc, that doesn't make it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/haitch

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Haitch

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:26 (nineteen years ago)

emsk, I'm from north london, though i do suffer a bit of accent drift occasionally.

Wikipedia says h is standard in hiberno-english, although not across the country.

― cis boom bah (cis), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

i think it's on the whole better to call it a 'huh'.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:34 (nineteen years ago)

you're just trying to be difficult.

― cis boom bah (cis), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:36 (nineteen years ago)

Unbelievably there are countries where people don't speak with an accent that drops hs...jesus crist

Yes, but I think the question is whether the name of the letter is pronounced "haitch" or "aitch". In Ireland we all say "haitch". It's what we say. There are no airs or graces or even really class distinctions attached to it.

In Oz the haitch v aitch divide seems to be on sectarian lines. If you went to a Catholic primary school you're much more likely to say 'haitch' than otherwise.

This is v. interesting to me.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:36 (nineteen years ago)

that sectarian divide must have passed me by. i spent 13 years in catholic schools but i say 'aitch' not 'haitch'.

― Gem (gem ), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:42 (nineteen years ago)

i think. now that i'm seriously consdering it i'm not really sure what i say!

― Gem (gem ), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, and up in Norn Iron it's a shibboleth, which is interesting to me because I always thought that was an amazing word but never remembered to look it up.

although not across the country.

Well, that is The Trouble, yes. :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

so all these people who say 'haitch', do you say pee-haitch-dee for PhD? that sounds really weird to me

― Gem (gem ), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

nah, you drop the 'h' in pee-haitch-dee cos it's the unstressed syllable after a stressed vowel, like in 'vehicle'.

― cis boom bah (cis), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:50 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, some comedy Irish accents do include Vee-HICK-ul, though I don't know exactly which region they're parodying.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:53 (nineteen years ago)

phd is not a word-word though. i don't want to give away where i work, but anyway let's say it's NYPDH. my co-workers say "en-why-pee-dee-HAITCH". and they wrong.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:53 (nineteen years ago)

It's funny hearing about diffs in how you're supposed to deal with the word "the" - in the US it's "thə" like 99% of the time. The other 1% is bands like Thee Hydrogen Terrors.

If there were a, say, bagel company called "H&H Bagels" you'd say "haitch and haitch bagels"?

"VEE-hickle" is a pretty common Southern US thing.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:55 (nineteen years ago)

my co-workers say "en-why-pee-dee-HAITCH". and they wrong.

Yes, it should be "en-wye..2

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 19 February 2007 11:56 (nineteen years ago)

TBH I think saying "herb" with the aspirated aitch sounds affected to me so I am pretty unreasonable about these things I guess.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:02 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say 'haitch an(d) aitch bagels'!

― cis boom bah (cis), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:04 (nineteen years ago)

hahaha

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:08 (nineteen years ago)

BEIGE-els, surely.

― in the case of masonic attack (kate), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:09 (nineteen years ago)

That leading h/not-h sound is one of the most difficult things for the lovely Emma B (who is French) to get to grips with. Things she will say:

"My harms are cold!"
"The harrows are going the wrong way"
"Your airs are so curly today"

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

RJG took the piss out of me for saying 'orrible' just last Thursday :(

― Madchen (Madchen), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

why? you were right! also saying 'uge for huge.

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

I was drunk

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 19 February 2007 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

TBH I think saying "herb" with the aspirated aitch sounds affected to me so I am pretty unreasonable about these things I guess.

But, but it's how we talk.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 19 February 2007 13:00 (nineteen years ago)

this thread reminds me of why i got out of radio and got into print :)

Nothing like listening to arguments about whether a certain indefinite article is pronounced "aye" or "uh" when reading scripts.

― PPlains (PPlains), Monday, 19 February 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

solution is to use 'an' for everything/all words.

― resumo impetus (blueski), Monday, 19 February 2007 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

That is not an solution.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 19 February 2007 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

i thought emsk's point wasn't that "aitch" was dropping the "h" as in an accent, but that the actual word is "aitch" not "haitch" the "h" of which was just invented from nowhere, much like, if everyone from ireland suddenly decided that the future is "horange", the word is still really "orange" because otherwise it'd be quite hobscene.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:12 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah. Otherwise you'd have to say "a haitch"!

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

hotherwise

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

ken: yes.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

yeah ronan, i know there are places where no one drops their aitches. but if the word was "haitch", the people saying it wrongly would be dropping their aitch which doesn't bother me at all, unlike when the people saying the word wrongly are adding the aitch.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

normal US speaker: aitchen aitch baygles
wisconsinite: aitchen aitch beggles

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

"The harrows are going the wrong way"

is your girl an archer or something??

― and what (ooo), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah. Otherwise you'd have to say "a haitch"!

Which we do, of course. H***n with a haitch!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

wrong wrong wrong.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

it was a reference to some signs on the road that revealed we were going the wrong direction (emma's response: "no, the HARROWS are going the wrong direction!!")

the last time i tried archery i was trying to cut a notch on the end of an arrow with a brand-new swiss army knife and went WITH the grain instead of against it, slicing deeply and totally painlessly right through the skin of my left index finger

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

That's the first story about archery I've ever heard that didn't involve someone getting shot in the buttcheek.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

Which we do, of course. H***n with a haitch!

Right. I don't see what all the fuss is about. (I am pretending not to see Emsk's responses.)

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

So ...

H***n with a haitch
Farley with a feff
Lennon with a lell
Miller with a memm
Nesbitt with a nenn
Rogers with a rarr
Stevens with a sess
Williams with a wubbleyou
Xavier with a xex
Yancey with a yiye

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:35 (nineteen years ago)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/nitsuh/englishlanguage.gif

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, Andrew and I are not English.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/nitsuh/englishlanguage2.gif

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:00 (nineteen years ago)

That's haitchow convenient, smart guy.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:00 (nineteen years ago)

I want a(n) H&H Bagel right now!!

― JTS (JTS), Monday, 19 February 2007 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

I think "an historical" might come more easily than "an history" because of the stress on the second syllable of the former.

The stress is on the first syllable 'hiss-torical'.

"a haitch"! Oh my lord.

― DavidM (DavidM), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 00:36 (nineteen years ago)

The stress is on the first syllable 'hiss-torical'
What????????

his TOR ical.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 02:31 (nineteen years ago)

Re dropped h's: Australia's cricket team playing today is:

Ayden, Watson, Addin, Odge, Ussey, White, Voges, Ogg, Bracken, Tait, Johnson.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 03:58 (nineteen years ago)

I am a Scottish Catholic and I have just noticed that, though I say "aitch" in every other circumstance, I use "haitch" when reciting the alphabet deliberately and slowly.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 09:01 (nineteen years ago)

i do that too. that's why i got a bit confused last night trying to work it out. i wondered if it was because it is easier to say 'haitch' after 'gee'

― Gem (gem ), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 09:05 (nineteen years ago)

The stress is on the first syllable 'hiss-torical'.
"a haitch"! Oh my lord.

-- DavidM (goodway...), February 20th, 2007.

um waht?! it's "an 'istorical".

― temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 09:09 (nineteen years ago)

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