Pointy Shoes

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I needed to get some 'sensible' shoes today. Everywhere I looked all I could find were pointy shoes.

Feet are not pointy.

Discuss

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link

pointy shoes are not cool

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I knew I could rely on RJG.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link

jELF

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Wouldn't be caught dead in 'em. They have this weird effect of making any woman look bitchy.

― lindseykai (lindseykai), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

they can look real classy

― deej (deej), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link

They have a totally understandable effect of making any woman look uncomfortable.

I am opposed to pointy shoes on orthopedic and ideological grounds. Dansko clogs 4EVA.

― Handgun O. Mendocino (pullapartgirl), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:38 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, mens shoes are too pointy nowadays. who the hell decided a brogue whould be pointy?!

― colin0Hara (colin_o_hara), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I hope I wasn't too audible, but I did catch myself saying "bloody pointy shoes, grrrr!" a few times.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:41 (seventeen years ago) link

i hope it was heard and noted.

― colin0Hara (colin_o_hara), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Classic. Essential. Good for kicking conformists.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

i bloody hope you WERE overheard. surely pointy shoes are longer than normal shoes, meaning you spend all day tripping over things? either that or your toes are all squished up.

― emsk ( emsk ), Friday, 16 February 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

You hate the pointy shoe. You fear the pointy shoe.

But, deep inside, you WANT the pointy shoe.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:00 (seventeen years ago) link

The pointy shoe does not squish your toes together (at least the few pairs that I have do not). I don't trip either. Well, no more than usual.

Pointy shoes for dudes just sounds like a bad idea.

― molly mummenschanz (molly d), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:03 (seventeen years ago) link

They have this weird effect of making any woman look bitchy.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:05 (seventeen years ago) link

pointy shoes just remind me of shoulder pads, which reminds me of the evil lady in "Mannequin", and make me wonder what other horrid 80s fashions will be resurrected.

― they be stealin' kingfish's bucket (kingfish), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I have a pair of lightly pointy sneakers -- I actually like them quite a bit. But they're within the bounds of normal man-friendly pointyness, not like some of those alligator Rumplestiltskin things they offer women.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Damnit I always hoped there would come a point in my life where "Rumplestiltskin" would stop sounding so comically dirty to me, but it's only getting worse with age.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I dated a guy who got really into the pointy Fluevog boots and shoes. Let's just say the relationship was doomed.

― molly mummenschanz (molly d), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:15 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco, I think these are Rumplestiltskin (I feel so pervy typing that out!) shoes for men:

http://www.fluevog.com/code/images/colour/0000001583/composite.jpg

― molly mummenschanz (molly d), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I saw two guys on the subway the other day who were very well dressed -- in a tacky Lavalife ad way, but nice and clearly expensive items of clothing -- and one of them had extremely pointy, nearly curled leather shoes, and the other had the older, opposite trend, with the absolute most strikingly SQUARE block-end of a leather shoe I've ever seen.

So as far as men go, I think that recent chunky / blocky phase might contribute to guys being slightly more comfortable with the thin / light / elegant points. This seems like a fashiony moment anyway, and long pointy non-footshaped shoes are pretty high on the list of things that are fun in a fashiony moment but will seem rather ridiculous when people are being more practical.

As for making women seem bitchy, umm, I'll kinda second Laurel's take on this, plus maybe suggest that it goes the other way around: anything that's fashionable for common fashiony going-out wear among women (whether it's ponchos or whatever, and the tight skinny jeans + pointy heels has been a long-running staple here) winds up getting described as making women seem bitchy. I mean, this is stuff women wear to go out to bars: they are not exactly aiming to look meek or virginal!

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:32 (seventeen years ago) link

pointy shoes on women rule. I'm not sure I've ever seen them on a dude, though. I don't really get men's shoes in general.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Friday, 16 February 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I bought some pointy shoes yesterday. I'm not really convinced by them and I think they're already on their way out but they were nice in other regards and they were only £20 in TK Maxx and I seem to be buying shoes as disposable items these days so fuck it.

― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 17 February 2007 01:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Man, I love it when you wonder something random and the internet explains everything for you:

The name TK Maxx was adopted instead of parent, US company T.J. Maxx, to avoid confusion with the existing but separate discount chain T.J. Hughes.

― the pony-poop paradox (the pony-poop paradox), Saturday, 17 February 2007 03:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I used to love shoes like this in the late 80s:

http://www.vixensandangels.com/images/Shoes/UNDspookybp.jpg

And then you couldnt get gothy witchy winklepickers anywhere for love or money, and then I got right into really round-toed girly maryjanes and now you cant find THOSE anywhere and everything is icky points :(

I can't win.

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 17 February 2007 03:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Pointy shoes really aren't uncomfortable, I love them. I don't know about pointy shoes for men, though...there's just something a bit sketchy about it.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Saturday, 17 February 2007 04:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Pointy shoes on women are a bit passé, it seems. I think they do look great (read: sexxeee) on some women, so wouldn't give a tosser if they still wear regardless of them being passé.

― nathalie (stevienixed), Saturday, 17 February 2007 09:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know about fashion in other major cities, but I don't believe pointy shoes have been out of fashion in New York in like 20 years? Or more? There are sometimes other options that come into vogue, like the oblique toe of uh, 10 years ago? or the variations on round that are currently happening, and the preferred angle of the point can change (along with all other styling details), but the basic black pointy stiletto/pump is firmly enthroned, I think.

― Laurel (Laurel), Saturday, 17 February 2007 15:01 (seventeen years ago) link

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8403/02shoedaggergp4.jpg

― a bulldog fed a cookie shaped like a kitten (austin), Saturday, 17 February 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

haha these are actually on sale as "lame jester shoes"

http://www.costumesinc.com/Costumes/images/medium/7362.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 17 February 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Laurel, I meant the SUPERpointy shoes. You know, a mile long. Regular pointy shoes have never been that popular in my town, but, strangely, the extra supah doopah pointy shoes (and boots) have.

― nathalie (stevienixed), Saturday, 17 February 2007 15:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh hmm, maybe I haven't seen the evidence for this style yet? Will peel eyes.

― Laurel (Laurel), Saturday, 17 February 2007 15:40 (seventeen years ago) link

lame jester shoes or lamé jester shoes?

― a bulldog fed a cookie shaped like a kitten (austin), Saturday, 17 February 2007 16:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Just bought these - thoughts?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/biondino/shoes160207.jpg

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Just bought these - thoughts?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/biondino/shoes160207.jpg

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Are they made of wood?

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:42 (seventeen years ago) link

They are actually made of wood!

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Blimey!!

The point is not too extreme, as they still look a bit rounded at the front, I would let them pass.

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 10:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Nice. Would go well with tweeds. I could go for a more assertive point, though.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah - the point is in reality a little more assertive than it looks in this picture, but we're very much at the blunt end of pointiness here.

(they're not actually made of wood, Jel)

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Smart stuff. Can I ask how much?

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:33 (seventeen years ago) link

More than yours :/

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:52 (seventeen years ago) link

They were from Walk, in their sale. Not much of a sale compared to some sadly, but the shoes are fab.

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:53 (seventeen years ago) link

They were £300, weren't they?

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 12:28 (seventeen years ago) link

No, they were £90.

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 13:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Pretty good price - could have believed £300!

Haven't been to Walk, but Office and Zara are reliable sources of pointiness.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Sunday, 18 February 2007 14:07 (seventeen years ago) link

A major problem with pointy shoes is your toes get chilly in winter (that unfilled point gets full of cold air).

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 14:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks Souhesian (do I know you by any other name btw?) - I was annoyed that the Dolcis closing-down sale had no great shoes at low low prices - they had a pointy pair for £40 but the soles were so ridiculously slippery on carpet (I know they'd have roughed up quickly) I decided it was a sign and didn't buy them.

Okay, these shoes are utterly non-pointy, but I'd like opinions. I tried them on the same time as the ones above, but they were too big. Do you think they might look nice? (NB the top bit isn't actually wider, it's because they were unzipped)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/biondino/rejectedshoes.jpg

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link

Man, I was totally convinced that they were neo-clogs!

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

SKINNY JEANS + POINTY SHOES ON A MAN = DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Sunday, 18 February 2007 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Really, Lex? It's not a look I'd date but I can admire it from across the street if done w/ some distinction and not all art-studented out.

Speaking of which, can someone please bring back jackets that actually FIT? Then I could stop seeing all the waifish wrists sticking out like chicken legs.

― Laurel (Laurel), Sunday, 18 February 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link

I like my pointy shoes. They sharpen the mind, somehow.

― collardio gelatinous (collardio), Sunday, 18 February 2007 18:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Really, Lex? It's not a look I'd date but I can admire it from across the street if done w/ some distinction and not all art-studented out.

yeah the thing is it usually, like 99% of the time, is totally art-studented out, combined with really carefully messy hair, bad facial hair and so on - round here you see far too many boys like this.

also skinny jeans are just so unflattering on boys, i fail to see how making your legs look like twigs is a good thing.

― lexpretend (lexpretend), Sunday, 18 February 2007 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link

What about fairly slimfitting but not figurehugging, Lex?

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link

SKINNY JEANS + POINTY SHOES = just about every cool garage band ever

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Sunday, 18 February 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

re: Mark's last pair - the first thought i had was that if they were in black i could picture them on Ian Astbury, but then I thought no no, not enough buckles. take from that what you will.

― Kimstitch (kimstitch), Sunday, 18 February 2007 19:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I wouldn't buy a pair of pointy shoes anyway as they are WAY TOO UNCOMFORTABLE. You'd think one of the advantages of being a man is that you don't have to put yourself through actual physical pain in order to look nice.

I certainly wouldn't buy a pair for £20, possibly because I assume breaking them in would be an excruciating experience.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 18 February 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I have another pair of Walk shoes of a similar design, same size, and they are totally comfortable - with thick socks I can walk for half an hour without blisters. There's a branch on Oxford Street near the junction with Dean Street, I think it is.

Kim, hmm. Yes, I see where you're coming from, and I'm not altogether sure it's a bad thing :) I kind of want cowboy boots; those ones were in my mind a kind of compromise. I still like how they look - I might go try on a pair of 42s unless anyone thinks they're really bad.

― It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (Maaarghk C), Sunday, 18 February 2007 20:31 (seventeen years ago) link

what are you people doing to your feet.

― ^@^ (map), Sunday, 18 February 2007 21:19 (seventeen years ago) link

I wouldn't buy a pair of pointy shoes anyway as they are WAY TOO UNCOMFORTABLE.

Are you sure? As I said, the pointy bit is actually just an appendage on the end of the shoe, really. You don't have to fit your toes into it. They are longer than they would be otherwise. Or if they're not, just get a bigger size than normal.

I don't like those second boots, Mark. They look like a bit Blake's 7.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh okay, so they just make you look like a ponce then. I'm happy with the appendage I've got, thanks.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:50 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't really know why I'm defending pointy shoes.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 18 February 2007 23:57 (seventeen years ago) link

. I'm happy with the appendage I've got, thanks.

FNAAAR.

― emsk ( emsk ), Monday, 19 February 2007 00:29 (seventeen years ago) link

The Mummies never wore pointy shoes or skinny jeans.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Men's pointy shoes = dud, yet cowboy boots always look awesome! ?? Maybe it's the nice, proper heel.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Plenty of men's pointy shoes have proper heels!

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:29 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. I just remembered I have a pair of REALLY pointy dress shoes. My excuse would be that I got them as the bonus in a 2-for-1 during a closeout sale -- they were the least ridiculous thing left in stock -- but they actually look pretty good and non-poncey with decent trousers, so I refuse to be shamed.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

i dont really see these much in ny anymore -which is like so great

― jhoshea (jhoshea), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Cowboy boots are hefty, though, and yes the undershot heel is key as is the fact that the toe angles up from the hinge (the more so as they get walked in). Actually I like that about women's high heels too, it's a nice silhouette. I seem to recall it being a mark of good design, done in order to make the otherwise rigid sole break at the right spot, and it helps the toes from dragging when you walk...but now I can't find a reference online.

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Also they are actually square-toed and not pointy, but the more I wear them, the more I enjoy that my harness boots enforce a leisurely saunter. One cannot quite stride, the boots are heavy and the velocity of swing isn't right, but they are cleverly made for swaggering. Ahh love.

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Likewise pointy toes make you pick up whole foot in a sort of kick behind you, a gait also best done at a leisurely pace. Is a good reminder to stand up straight and to leave the house on time, so you don't have to hurry (like people who always seem to be leaning forward against a heavy wind).

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 18:54 (seventeen years ago) link

I have some pointy shoes from Costume National that are pointy but not too pointy. I think they look smashing. I'm too short for truly long shoes (and I played Rumplestiltskin in the school play, so looking short-with-pointy-shoes-in-a-bad-way is a genuine concern).

― Dr3w Dan1el (Drew Daniel), Monday, 19 February 2007 19:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Had a conversation about this with an old mod once: pointy shoes won't screw up your feet by themselves, but add serious cuban heels, and it's a different story.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Monday, 19 February 2007 20:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahah oh dear but Cuban heels on men's shoes are still low-to-medium height for women's shoes, and relatively wide/sturdy compared to say ladies' winklepickers of same period. OH NOES YOU POOR THINGS.

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 20:36 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.tootsiesdance.com/glide/images/z-heel-sizes.jpg

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 20:39 (seventeen years ago) link

That's a women's Cuban heel and it's still the smallest of the bunch.

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 20:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Why has no one mentioned BUNIONS?

I have two. They hurt like a mother. Thank you, pointy shoes!

― Armando Grouse (Armando ), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, that's the delight of points for men: our feet end safely well before the tapering starts, and we don't wear heels high enough to send them sloping forward down into the pinch. Tracer's right about the little pocket of cold air at the tip, though! (Suggestion: pack point, seal off, and use for smuggling?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I've seen John Cooper Clarke in a pair of winklepickers with a Cuban-style heel that must have been well over two inches - now THERE'S a fashion icon!

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Monday, 19 February 2007 21:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I wore pointy shoes today! They are, dogtooth, or houndstooth, you know the sort of thing, and have red bows on them. They are flat and rather cute. BUT NOW I CAN'T STOP IMAGINING THEM ON MARKELBY!

Let's go off-topic a little, and tell me about your favourite office shoes. I need to buy more work shoes. You know the deal. Smart etc etc. However each time I go to buy sensible work shoes they seem dull and expensive so I walk out with aforementioned houndstooth+bows combination. Once I accidentally bought shoes with donkeys on them, AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE SENSIBLE OPTION. Guh.

― Sarah (Science of Unforunate Events), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Starry, I firmly believe in the described houndstooth pair as sensible shoes! Red, white, and black are the colors of my life & would go with anything. But I'm not a big fan of the fallback shoe, really -- you know, the all-purpose pair. I'd rather buy fun shoes and wear them AS IF they were all-purpose until they just become your "thing". DO IT.

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:17 (seventeen years ago) link

It can become my "thing" once I get a new job innit :)

― Sarah (Science of Unforunate Events), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Although I will admit that my previous 'fallback' shoes have lasted me since I was 17!

― Sarah (Science of Unforunate Events), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I wish I could remember where I got them from, clearly they are super value. Probably Matalan!

― Sarah (Science of Unforunate Events), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh a two minute google at boring shoes and I'm now convinced I should buy these:
https://shop.camper.es/tienda/tienda.asp?zi=&ci=&lg=en&ct=GB
They discharge static electricity and I could do with some of that. Also - they look squishy.

― Sarah (Science of Unforunate Events), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Sadly that link only goes the whole store, and not a particular pair, Stars. What's the model name?

― Laurel (Laurel), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:33 (seventeen years ago) link

i want static discharging shoes! i get shocked approximately 300 times a day at work!

― tehresa (tehresa), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

pointy shoes with built-in lightning conductors?

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Monday, 19 February 2007 22:46 (seventeen years ago) link

ihttp://www.artisticjourney.com.au/images/shoe%20shrine.jpg

― collardio gelatinous (collardio), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 04:18 (seventeen years ago) link

or maybe
http://www.artisticjourney.com.au/images/shoe%20shrine.jpg

― collardio gelatinous (collardio), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 04:24 (seventeen years ago) link

Why has no one mentioned BUNIONS?

I have two. They hurt like a mother. Thank you, pointy shoes!

so they do squish your toes up? fuck that, i need my feet for the rest of my life.

― emsk ( emsk ), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 11:31 (seventeen years ago) link

I am flattered that nabisco thought N. was me!

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 11:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I wear trainers to work, or DMs. I am a scruffy librarian, I got on my high horse when there was talk of a dress code being introduced. Stomped around with the human rights act, as a joke.

The worst form of pointy shoe is the "diamond point" which sorta taper into toward the ankle

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9iTSxiT2YWQ

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 18:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Cowboy boots Mark, ARE YOU SURE? Is all the Texas Holdem affecting your brane? Gonna get yerself a stetson too?

SRSLY though I wore cowboy boots many years ago. Then I realised everyone hated them. I moved on to square-toed motorcycle-esque boots. No-one liked them either. Finally tried some chelsea boots and I think we were all much happier with that decision.

― ledge (ledge), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 18:19 (seventeen years ago) link

One can get less-pointy, less "dude" cowboy boots, that have a square(-ish) toe and scuff up real good. I've always kinda wanted some.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 18:23 (seventeen years ago) link

http://i.onlineshoes.com/images/br009/95617_450_45.jpg

Wonder Woman boots! Merrell Spire Peaks. I bought them for my husband's birthday party, and wore them with a black chenille tunic/dress thing slit up the sides to my hipbones, and cool tights. I got the dress at the thrift shop for $3. For his 50th I decided to dress like a slutbag superhero.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 19:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Just picked these up:
ihttp://www.zappos.com/images/726/7268116/4974-309906-p.jpg

Pretty standard, but pointier than my previous pair (and a steal at $85 on sale)

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 19:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I too have those boots, Beth!
They are the only cute shoes I have that don't irritate my BUNIONS. Only problem is that they are a little wide for my legs, so they don't look as good with skirts/dresses as I had hoped.

― Armando Grouse (Armando ), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 19:50 (seventeen years ago) link

It's true they are not dainty, but I think they would go with a swishy full skirt, as well as the slinkier tunic-length thing I wore.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Tuesday, 20 February 2007 20:09 (seventeen years ago) link

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