Well I don't know that things are that easy. I think there is a place for both a variable, scaleable, context-/device-dependent format and a locked-down, .pdfish model. (Although something a little more sturdy and robust than .pdf would be nice...). In other words, I can see, say, comic book geeks really liking to read things w/ certain well-defined dimensions and presentation standards, while most books/articles will be seved equally well by being read as 160 words on a b&w iphone screen as enlarged on a 27" monitor.
― remy bean in exile, Thursday, 22 December 2011 14:44 (twelve years ago) link
yeah obvs 'books' thatre primarily images have a whole nother set of demands
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 14:45 (twelve years ago) link
This issue is v. prominent in adaptive/assistive/instructional info techology, where the divide b/w 'image' and 'text' is pretty fuzzy.... somebody's gotta come up with something better than a .pdf to allow input and the preservation of precise, functional formatting that is somehow useable on more than one type of device. HTML5 isn't a bad option, frankly, but it'll need wider acceptance/support.
― remy bean in exile, Thursday, 22 December 2011 14:54 (twelve years ago) link
was just thinking abt ui design in adaptive/assistive technologies, not really something i know anything abt, but it seems p interesting
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 15:13 (twelve years ago) link
OK, so I guess I was understanding him to the extent that he was making sense.
But is flowing text "plug ugly"? It doesn't seem that way to me, a non-techy consumer.
― Sandbox Jesse, Thursday, 22 December 2011 17:37 (twelve years ago) link
its just 'people talkin abt fonts for no good reason' m/l
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 17:38 (twelve years ago) link
c/f images upthread
― thompp, Thursday, 22 December 2011 17:53 (twelve years ago) link
I meant, does it seem "plug ugly" to you, dear reader.
― Sandbox Jesse, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:03 (twelve years ago) link
the problem with the crooked timber thing is that 'just use pdf!' is a ridiculously awful solution to the problem. but it's still a solution which would produce better looking results than the current paradigm
here's some text on the nook:
http://int64.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/badjustify.png
that's from an article which has the even better thesis at least if you have a nook you can dump your epubs into pdfs and redo the typesetting yourself and read that which i am guessing probably even more of a non-starter for most people
however i feel like this is right:
"My only real gripe is that, like almost every other e-reader out there, it has such poor typesetting that you have to wonder if it was designed by software engineers who aren’t big readers"
which, you know, ding ding ding
xpost: yes.
― thompp, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
I tried for like 5 minutes to be a typeface snob, but I realized that I don't detect any difference in value between similar typefaces. "Readability" is not an issue for me beyond actual illegibility.
― Sandbox Jesse, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:11 (twelve years ago) link
Concur
― Jeff, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:15 (twelve years ago) link
it's not the typefaces so much as the spacing
http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/WindowsLiveWriter/AmazonKindlevs.KindleDXTheFinalWord_CE5C/screen_shot-35927_thumb.gif
lookit the paragraph starting "'Fangtasia,' Pam said" -- there's places where the gaps between words are larger than the words themselves -- now admittedly i. a small subset of people will care and ii. this appears to be from one of those true blood novels so w/e
i don't know, i assume the normal response is "why in the hell would that bother you" and then i say "you don't know it but it's crippling your reading experience" and then i turn into that guy who starts the dynamic range compression threads and refuse to go outside because i might hear some music that's not on my perfectly magnetically balanced insulated and feng shui-ed hi fi system
― thompp, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:16 (twelve years ago) link
I honestly don't notice stuff like that, and I read a lot. That paragraph looks fine to me.
xxxp
― silverfish, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:17 (twelve years ago) link
I get distracted by weird spacing. I can push through it, but it will take me out of the reading headspace, if that makes any sense. Like, it will remind me that I'm reading, and it takes a minute to get back to where I am no longer aware of the process of translating words into brain images.
― wore glasses and said things (thejenny), Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
the main offense of that formatting is the that text is justified rather than aligned, aka itd be more readable were it jagged along the right margin
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:19 (twelve years ago) link
its p unconscionable tbqh, is there a setting for that or something
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:20 (twelve years ago) link
i mean its like a super easy fix
I don't know why all these things use whatever random just-above-MS-Word-quality line-breaking algorithms when they could be using something closer to the TeX line-breaking algorithms, which are pretty much the gold standard of doing this sort of thing automatically.
xps the Sookie Stackhouse novels are in first person? ick
― silby, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
having just said that, though, reading it in my head, that "'Fangtasia,' Pam said" did come out slower than it should have. So maybe I guess I do notice this stuff.
xp to myself
― silverfish, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
I like the ability to change the font for each book I read. The more "formal" the book, the more likely I am to want a serif font, for some reason.
Kids book = sans serifClassic lit = serifPop science/history = sans serif
I appreciate a typesetter advising me with which font to use*, but now the tech exists to change it, I would be mighty annoyed if it was taken away.
And justifying the paragraph so it fills up the entire line is some bullshit, dnw. I'm one of those who notice this and would really prefer it didn't happen.
*that first sentence's grammar got me confused, so apologies for the clumsiness.
― You failed, you didn’t eat the whole pizza (NotEnough), Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:22 (twelve years ago) link
years and years and years of publishing precedent argue against left justification, is the problem
― OH NOES, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:23 (twelve years ago) link
I totally get why that spacing issue would bother some people, and sometimes when it's very obvious, it bothers me too. What did bother me about that text was that it was fully justified (which accounts for the spacing problem). I like ragged right edge.
I'm the same with audiophilia - I am usually OK with getting the "gist" of the music I'm hearing. Though I appreciate why it would be different for other people.
You know what irks me though? Is the way some "audiophiles" and "font snobs" seem to care about those things (and care very vocally) b/c it makes them seem refined and sensitive. Again, SOME of them.
many xps
― Sandbox Jesse, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:24 (twelve years ago) link
― OH NOES, Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:23 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Permalink
yeah idgi is that really the default setting on the nook
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:25 (twelve years ago) link
I mean justified text blocks pretty much empirically look better and read better when they are carefully tweaked by hand and hyphenated and whatnot. One of the big reasons that a lot of these justified blocks look bad is that they are averse to automatic hyphenation of words, whereas TeX is all about automatic hyphenation. You can't fill up lines in a pleasing fashion without being able to auto-hyphenate, since really all you're doing in that case is taking the ragged-right paragraph layout and stretching all the interword spaces until each line is justified.
― silby, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:26 (twelve years ago) link
as an example, in the Fangtasia excerpt, this paragraph:
"Fangtasia," Pam said, as if she were bored morecompletely than anyone had ever been bored.
would look better if it were set like this:
"Fangtasia," Pam said, as if she were bored more complete-ly than anyone had ever been bored.
because a lot of that extra interword space in the first line would go away.
― silby, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:29 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but then you have the hypen
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:30 (twelve years ago) link
yes but that's why hyphens were invented, so justified text blocks could have aesthetically pleasing amounts of interword space!
― silby, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:31 (twelve years ago) link
I find hyphens dis-tracting
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:32 (twelve years ago) link
maybe because you are using them incorrectly?
― OH NOES, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:32 (twelve years ago) link
fine
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:33 (twelve years ago) link
I find hyphenating lessannoying thenbadly justified text.
― You failed, you didn’t eat the whole pizza (NotEnough), Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:33 (twelve years ago) link
Do you actually find hyphens distracting? like I promise you every book you've ever read has about three words that are hyphenated across a line break per page, are you distracted by them every single time? xp
― silby, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:33 (twelve years ago) link
no
― є(٥_ ٥)э, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:34 (twelve years ago) link
a little distracting yes
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:35 (twelve years ago) link
what really bugs me is how shitty that sentence is
all books should just be printed on one long fortune cookie fortune
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:36 (twelve years ago) link
I don't think the issue is either hyphenating or bad justification -- it's that the column width on most readers is so small that either one would need to do massive overtime to correctly set the text, and intrude pretty obnoxiously.
― remy bean in exile, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:36 (twelve years ago) link
one word at a time is a good way to read
― є(٥_ ٥)э, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:36 (twelve years ago) link
there's a left-justified example of the lorem ipsum paragraph in the link. it doesn't look v good either tbh
these are actually sub ms-word algorithms they're using; kerning is somewhat better in word since the last big redo. i don't really get why something that ought to be a core technology on these is so slapdash.
i find this a deeply odd argt.:
I appreciate a typesetter advising me with which font to use, but now the tech exists to change it, I would be mighty annoyed if it was taken away.
bcz typesetting is a craft with half a millenium of experience and weight behind it; there are people who are just good at this - ! otoh i did just go look up the physical version of that novel on amazon and that's pretty shoddily set too tbh so
― thompp, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:37 (twelve years ago) link
thank you for articulating what was really bothering me, there we go^^^^
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:37 (twelve years ago) link
maybe that's why I don't like reading on e-readers, the page is too small!
― flexidisc, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:38 (twelve years ago) link
I fear the day when my eyesight goes and I can't use teeny tiny fonts anymore
― OH NOES, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams/tickertape2.jpg
― brownie, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
I've got three books open on my desk. One of them is 1Q84; it's got +/- 44 lines of text per page, +/- 100 characters per line. There are 0-3 hyphens per page, and only prominent – immediately noticeable - weird spacing due to justification. The text is fairly dense, and it easily absorbs a lot of spacing issues w/o seeming too deliberate. I have yet to see an ereader/electronic screen that can display that amount of information in a way that is not overwhelming or eyestrain inducing...
― remy bean in exile, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:41 (twelve years ago) link
there's also stuff like - pretty much all faber poetry is typeset the same way. it's a part of how the meaning and the weight of the words you read are constructed. i'm not sure i like the idea of taking that away from the interaction you have with the text. (there's an argument that having personae reduced to the same standards as a self-published .epub of poetry about vampires is a democratic step forwards and a good thing but i think it's an argument that's basically wrong.)
xpost yeah that's another thing -- pretty sure that a lot of ppl who read a lot will use this things with smaller text; screenshots always seem to have like a 35-45 character wide line. (this is in part bcz if you want a screenshot that works on a monitor which is most likely going to have a smaller dpi you need to not use the smallest text size.)
― thompp, Thursday, 22 December 2011 18:41 (twelve years ago) link
only ONE prominent - immediately noticeable – spacing due to justification.
hyphenating bothers me a lot more than weird spacing. I only notice weird spacing in extreme cases. Not being able to read a whole word without moving my eyes from one side of a page to the other is way worse. I notice it every time even after 20+ years of reading books.
― silverfish, Thursday, 22 December 2011 19:10 (twelve years ago) link
hyphenating to facilitate a line break is a crude last resort, compared to deft leding
― Aimless, Thursday, 22 December 2011 19:20 (twelve years ago) link
ur thinking of kerning/tracking
― Cooper Chucklebutt, Thursday, 22 December 2011 19:27 (twelve years ago) link