also it's kind of annoying posting in a thread with actual reasons that haven't been disproven and being shouted down just b/c i'm not on-message technologically - how do you people cope with the vast majority of people who are even less comfortable using new technology than i am?
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 19:11 (twelve years ago) link
Your positions have been rationally countered. You had no rebuttal except to restate your original positions.
― Sandbox Jesse, Thursday, 15 December 2011 19:16 (twelve years ago) link
how do you people cope with the vast majority of people who are even less comfortable using new technology than i am?
laughing and pointing, mainly
― William (C), Thursday, 15 December 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link
"nope", "nope", "nope" ≠ rational countering
― degas-dirty monet (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 December 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link
c'mon lex they told you you were wrong, what more could you want
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 December 2011 23:55 (twelve years ago) link
kindle for majority
Easy, cheaper, instant access to books
Lighter and more portable than one paperback
Free books
― bloating forecast: ruff swells (p much resigned to deems), Friday, 16 December 2011 00:00 (twelve years ago) link
easier to read in bed/bath too
― bloating forecast: ruff swells (p much resigned to deems), Friday, 16 December 2011 00:02 (twelve years ago) link
E ink screen does not strain eyes/cause headaches like backlit screen can
Basic models are very simple to use. I recently got my 1st cell phone ever, a very basic one, and it was more complicated than my e-reader.
― julia, Friday, 16 December 2011 00:11 (twelve years ago) link
Lex: n/a, ledge, julia, silverfish and others have presented benefits that counter your detractions. There are on 54 posts itt atm so they should be pretty easy to find... Or Are you trying to rea this thread using a paperback format?
― Sandbox Jesse, Friday, 16 December 2011 00:46 (twelve years ago) link
fake sandbox lex
― wang dang google doodle (James Redd), Friday, 16 December 2011 01:08 (twelve years ago) link
ie: an object composed of toxic chemicals that will be obsolete within several years vs. object composed of renewable resource that will last forever
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, December 15, 2011 1:16 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink
this kinda analysis is actually very difficult to do cause "someone buys a paperback" involves more emissions than just cutting down some trees, you also have the emissions from a. transit of object b. brick+mortar store c. transit of human being to buy object. then if you really want to drive this to the ground you can say 'well what else would people be doing with that bookstore location, what happens to the money we'll save/spend w/ ebooks, etc. also w/ the way the economy works right now, isn't any new economic activity basically bad for the environment somewhere down the line? a: yeah...' even 'just go to the library' is like, fine, okay that works on an individual level, but libraries w/ physical books depend on a system where lots of people publish and buy physical copies of books.
you also have to consider that people are buying tablet type computers *regardless* of how much they read, so it's not really and either/or decision w/ paper books. using myself as an example I might buy a tablet *instead* of buying a new laptop and eventually tablet-devices will probably do everything our laptops do so reading a book on them won't be any 'worse for the environment' than reading ilx.
in conclusion there are better things to worry bout.
― iatee, Friday, 16 December 2011 01:23 (twelve years ago) link
I read pirated ebooks on my iPad, like I downloaded every Discworld novel recently. l1br4ry.nu is hit-or-miss for textbooky things. I bought a few indie tabletop roleplaying games as PDFs that I read on the iPad.
― silby, Friday, 16 December 2011 01:41 (twelve years ago) link
Basically I might pay $3 but not $10 for an ebook of what would be a backlist mass-market paperback and I don't really want to buy a physical backlist mass-market paperback. Humongous postmodern novels, physical all the way.
― silby, Friday, 16 December 2011 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
I say, "get that e-reader offa my lawn, you punks!"
― Aimless, Friday, 16 December 2011 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
iatee otm. Just think of the carbon footprint of this babyhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/libraryken.jpg
― wang dang google doodle (James Redd), Friday, 16 December 2011 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
reading a kindle in the city vs. reading a paperback in the suburbs
― good webinar (ha ha I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 16 December 2011 01:59 (twelve years ago) link
classic
― wang dang google doodle (James Redd), Friday, 16 December 2011 02:03 (twelve years ago) link
Ytvgyivihbhi hjkhi
― Jeff, Friday, 16 December 2011 02:14 (twelve years ago) link
I just read that on my ereader.
The abridged version of Finnegans Wake with shorter thunderwords?
― wang dang google doodle (James Redd), Friday, 16 December 2011 02:16 (twelve years ago) link
l1br4ry.nu
hmm, is this something that requires an invite?
― William (C), Friday, 16 December 2011 02:17 (twelve years ago) link
Is the name in the URL of the image above being familiar just a coincidence?
― Sandbox Jesse, Friday, 16 December 2011 02:41 (twelve years ago) link
Jesse, read me an ebook before bed. Plz.
― Jeff, Friday, 16 December 2011 02:43 (twelve years ago) link
The one with all the pretty pictures.
― Aimless, Friday, 16 December 2011 02:45 (twelve years ago) link
I am not especially for or against e-readers or paper. What was bugging me was that a couple advocates of paper ITT have been ardent and unrelenting in their derision of e-readers. Of course the poll is pretty inflammatory, but to me it feels like a reaction to the sanctimony coming from some of those in the throes of a backlash against e-readers.
I do not own an e-reader, but I will probably wind up with one sooner or later. I do most of my pleasure/personal interest reading on my iPhone, on my personal laptop, or my work computer. Reading on the iPhone is not great b/c it's just too small, and it's not e-ink.
As I see it - the merits e-reading and dead tree reading:
Paper:
- Flipping through and skimming is far easier
- Enjoyment of the tactile aspect, holding a real object, and being able to write on it (this is especially important to me). And autographable.
- Feels familiar and somehow wholesome, authentic, natural, earthy
- Won't malfunction, for the most part
- No great initial expenditure
- Accessible to more people
- Related to the last three: When the revolution or Armageddon comes, we will be able to use printed matter long after e-readers' batteries have died. (also, easier to smuggle paper - just try to carry a Kingle or Nook in your own "nook")
e-reading:
- Index or Table of Contents look up are much easier in a physical book. I find that this view is the other way around for me.
Nearly every single time I'm reading on paper, I wish for Ctrl+F capability. Especially if it's informational reading.
- Hyperlinks. To definitions, allusions, related information, etc.
- Portability. One light-weight device holds voluminous amounts of text.
- After the cost of purchasing the device, e-text is comparable or cheaper. And, as I understand it, e-books are available on loan from libraries (many? some?).
- Convenience of downloading reading material v. borrowing at the library, buying at a store, ordering online, borrowing from a friend, stealing.
- Kindle is idiot-simple to use. There are people in my life who are profoundly tech illiterate who enjoy their Kindles.
― Sandbox Jesse, Friday, 16 December 2011 03:24 (twelve years ago) link
That is a big post.
― Sandbox Jesse, Friday, 16 December 2011 03:25 (twelve years ago) link
maybe that poll option got truncated?
― nuhnuhnuh, Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Permalink
It said something about liking other people to know what you read in the park/on the subway etc. (b/c kindle ain't got covers right)
― Hurting, Friday, 16 December 2011 03:43 (twelve years ago) link
Anyway for the most part I just haven't taken very well to the e-reader experience. I don't especially dislike it, it's more like I just never felt like a book was something that needed improving. With the iPod I quickly saw the advantages of having a ton of different music in one tiny place, not having to change CD's, etc. With books it's pretty rare that I'd want more than one on me - in fact the vast possibility of e-readers is a distraction from reading for me (it's even worse with the iPad).
― Hurting, Friday, 16 December 2011 03:47 (twelve years ago) link
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier),
this makes me realize you've never been to a paper mill.
― jaq, Friday, 16 December 2011 03:48 (twelve years ago) link
Tonight I started some music with the Eno app Bloom, then I browsed through some books trying to decide which one to read next, and then I wrote two emails, and then Jaq started a Words With Friends game against me. Did all that from the same screen. SO difficult.
Lex's adversarial relationship with tech is such that I'd trust his opinion on e-readers as soon as I trusted his opinion on kitchen gear.
― William (C), Friday, 16 December 2011 03:53 (twelve years ago) link
― William (C), Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:17 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink
lol no it's just g00gl3proofed
― silby, Friday, 16 December 2011 04:28 (twelve years ago) link
though when you visit it asks you to log in, and has no options to sign up
― Sandbox James Morrison, Friday, 16 December 2011 04:38 (twelve years ago) link
the ebook era adds a weird dimension to digital rights stuff - like I have a nypl card and my gf's college library has like every book known to man - between the two I can at the moment check out any book I'd ever want w/ a bit of legwork. and when I want to read something I generally do one of the two. otoh, if I found and illegally dl'd that same book for a kindle, it somehow seems harder to defend?
there was an ilxory party last week where virginia plain (librarian) and I were having a discussion w/ this twirpy author who kept claiming (w/ a shit eating grin) that he felt like libraries violated his property rights.
maybe there should be a spotify for books, idk.
― iatee, Friday, 16 December 2011 04:40 (twelve years ago) link
xp to self whoa wait does it? I don't think it used to. I guess it does.
― silby, Friday, 16 December 2011 04:52 (twelve years ago) link
I own an e-reader and split my reading between that and regular books was my vote. Haven't bought a single e-book, I use gutenberg and yes I get pirated copies of non out-of-copyright stuff - but since I got my e-reader I've borrowed and bought more real books than ever before.
― ledge, Friday, 16 December 2011 09:42 (twelve years ago) link
I don't especially dislike it, it's more like I just never felt like a book was something that needed improving. With the iPod I quickly saw the advantages of having a ton of different music in one tiny place, not having to change CD's, etc.
^^^^
― flexidisc, Friday, 16 December 2011 12:21 (twelve years ago) link
With the e-reader I quickly saw the advantages of having a ton of different books in one place, e.g. when I am on holiday and don't want to fill my luggage with bulky weighty tomes.
― ledge, Friday, 16 December 2011 12:27 (twelve years ago) link
or just y'know maybe not wanting to read the one book at a time
― bloating forecast: ruff swells (p much resigned to deems), Friday, 16 December 2011 12:35 (twelve years ago) link
You should tell us his name so we can all illegally download his books.
― Nicole, Friday, 16 December 2011 13:42 (twelve years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
re-reading Lem's "Return from the Stars" (1961) this morning, lol'd at this passage:
"No longer was it possible to pbrowse among shelves, to weigh volumes in the hand, to feel their heft, the promise of ponderous reading. The books were crystals with recorded contents. They could be read with the aid of an opton, which was similar to a book but had only one page between the covers. At a touch, successive pages of the text appeared on it. But optons were little used, the sales-robot told me. The public preferred lectons - lectons read out loud, they could be set to any voice, tempo, and modulation... The robot that served me was itself an encyclopedia, in that - as it told me - it was linkeed directly, through electronic catalogues, to templates of every book on Earth."
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:08 (twelve years ago) link
my point was that books are largely non-toxic and easily recycled at the end of their useful life, which is typically decades after being printed. this is not the case with e-readers, which will be obsolete in a few years, and cannot be easily recycled.
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:12 (twelve years ago) link
also dunno if yr aware of this but paper grows on trees and you can always grow more trees. after all the rare earth metals are mined, it's not like the earth's gonna make a lot more in a few years.
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:13 (twelve years ago) link
there's also the kid in 'stars in my pockets like grains of sand' who has an Absorb The Entire Western Canon brain plug or w/e
― thompp, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:15 (twelve years ago) link
w.h. smith had demo units of their version of this idea out and i had a go on one and it took somewhere over a second to load the next 'page' of text -- are other units this bad? is it just me who finds this terrible and unworkable with?
if there was one that connected straight up to jstor etc i'd die for it. to read, like, novels, seems kind of pointless.
also the death of typography and the reading environment etc etc
― thompp, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:17 (twelve years ago) link
like: I have no interest in an e-reader; I like the feel and smell of musty yellowed paper and the faint narcissistic thrill
understates the case of this stuff somewhat. thinking of the text of a book as some platonic ideal away from all decisions as to where it physically lies on the page = colossal dud
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O1_Ky06bV30/TodrT6hyl2I/AAAAAAAAAqU/-8VkV8t8gZc/s400/Hepburn12_152.jpg
http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/viewFile/1405/1323/14245
― thompp, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:22 (twelve years ago) link
I have idly wondered how material that plays with typefaces and typesetting (like, say Alfred Bester, or Aldiss' Barefoot in the Head) is handled by e-readers
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:27 (twelve years ago) link
gotta say, when i think of that kind of thing those are the two first names to pop into my head too
― thompp, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:38 (twelve years ago) link
ha i just got a nook and its p cool but this thread makes me want to take a hammer to it
― upper mississippi 2: still shakin, Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:45 (twelve years ago) link
the other thing I idly wonder about is how e-readers handle books that aren't intended to be read in sequence - Cortazar's Hopscotch for ex.
― aesthetic partisan (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 21 December 2011 00:48 (twelve years ago) link
ha thanks darragh. i'll see how those books come out without any settings modified.
― jibé, Friday, 30 December 2011 03:51 (twelve years ago) link
thanks to the democratization of publishing my friend who is way better at writing lots and lots of words than he is at writing good ones now has a bunch of ebooks in the kindle store. I don't recommend spending yr money.
― silby, Friday, 30 December 2011 19:59 (twelve years ago) link
unless you want to read his self-insert fantasies about managing a rock band or being a computer hacker and dating large-breasted women
― silby, Friday, 30 December 2011 20:02 (twelve years ago) link
have you read 'ill fares the land'? i cant recommend it highly enough tbh― є(٥_ ٥)э, Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Permalink
― є(٥_ ٥)э, Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Permalink
yeah i read this in like two hours and immediately donated my copy to the occupy portland library; as a (very personal and rightly so) manifesto against The Problem it's sterling.
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 30 December 2011 21:00 (twelve years ago) link