thumbsucker blues: sandbox parenting thead

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Tell him it's a country in South America.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 27 December 2006 11:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Matt looks like Good King Wenceslaus.
Alice looks cuddled.

Nathalie, those pictures of Ophelia are great, but I keep going back and looking at your excellent shoes. Square toed loafers? Give me your shoes.

aimurchie (aimurchie), Wednesday, 27 December 2006 14:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Those are my husband's shoes. :-)

nathalie (stevienixed), Wednesday, 27 December 2006 14:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Give me your husband's shoes. And your baby. I'll give the baby back.

aimurchie (aimurchie), Wednesday, 27 December 2006 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link

if pics of my kid keep luna coming back to ilx, I'm happy to oblige! ;)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/335610826_d9592eed1e.jpg

here he is at 12.5 mos next to his 28 mo cousin.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/328345071_d9228b92a9.jpg
after shots.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/326471527_f38f43ad2a.jpg
I think the cuteness of this pic may force my family to move closer.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 28 December 2006 01:29 (seventeen years ago) link

If I stare into his eyes for several seconds I become mesmerized!

aimurchie (aimurchie), Thursday, 28 December 2006 03:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Aww, two shots in one day! That's so unfair, poor wee man.

He's so big! And gorgeous! I want to smooch his cheeks and grab his little chubby arms and legs. Oh teens, I am in love with your babydoll.

luna (luna), Thursday, 28 December 2006 03:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Aw he is sooo gorgeous teeny. Alice had so much blood pricked out of her heels in the days after she was born that getting her vaccinations probably won't faze her at all - unlike me, I'm going to hate it :(

She's been pretty grouchy the last couple of days, I think it's because we're still struggling to second guess her feeding patterns/needs. Can't just shove her onto a boob when she looks hungry, unfortunately. I am growing to hate her bottles and the eternal round of washing, sterilising, measuring, warming... not to mention the dreaded breast pump. But she's putting on weight like a trooper which is the main thing.

Archel (Archel), Thursday, 28 December 2006 12:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Ah Archel, that's a bummer. I remember worrying about her eating patterns as well. The moment I took her doctor's advice - just feed her when she wants even if it's every hour and a half (which was the case for some time) - everything seemed to go better. And the breast pump is a bitch (sorry). Hopefully it'll get easier after a while. Does she have reflux? Ophelia did for a while. Not a big problem but still present. I remember feeding her too much and she burped it all back up. :-(

nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 28 December 2006 13:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Yep, Alice is currently ejecting most of her last feed through both mouth and nose - with her cleft palate there's no real barrier between the two :(

But weirdly she seems to be able to stay fast asleep even while snuffling and spitting up, so she must be reasonably happy (if messy).

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/92/336141033_b160ec521e.jpg?v=0

Archel (Archel), Thursday, 28 December 2006 13:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I read that feeding your baby (with a cleft) upright makes it easier for them to swallow the milk. Probably stupid of me to say this, the nurses probably already advised you to do this....
I love the pic of her and the teddy. MUST POST THIS HERE! :-)

nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 28 December 2006 13:38 (seventeen years ago) link

cute babies everywhere!!

i am SO sick of being pregnant. over it over it over it!

here's something weird though: i've had morning sickness throughout this entire pregnancy but while I was in Australia I didnt get, or feel, sick at all. now, i've been back in the US for 24 hours and I've already puked 3 times. what the hell?? does baby want to be born downunder?


sunny successor (katarina), Friday, 29 December 2006 13:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Must be something about yr stomach contents swirling the opposite direction down there.

Joe Isuzu's Petals (Rock Hardy), Friday, 29 December 2006 14:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Just a couple of questions to the parents - how feasible is it to wait until you can 'afford' to have a child?

Just how financially secure should potential parents be?

This is Mr Pumpkins main reason for not having a baby, he says he doesn't want to just 'manage'. I think he's being unreasonable.

Rumps (Rumps), Friday, 29 December 2006 14:42 (seventeen years ago) link

If you wait until you can 'afford' a child you could never get to the point of actually arriving there... If he's going to insist on being financially secure, then you both need to sit down and talk about what 'financially secure' actually means to you both, come up with a sum of money you want saved or a budget that would work for you, and then decide whether you can afford the time to wait until you get there. You do need to think about whether you'd give up work or go back to work and need childcare, and what the financial implications of that would be...

Whatever you do, don't go thinking that you'll get pregnant straight away. Yes, it might happen, but I think the current stat. is that one in six couples experience problems trying to conceive that means it takes over a year. The longer you leave it, the more risks you take with dwindling fertility.

However, I'm not a parent (yet, hahaha....)

vicky (Vicky), Friday, 29 December 2006 14:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Is that "yet, hahaha..." you telling us something, Miss V?

We figure the amount we would save on not getting to go out ever again should be enough to keep a baby in baby things forever, but this doesn't mean I'm going to try this hypothesis out.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, a lot of people go back to work only to find out that the chidcare costs negate the wages.

I would probably go back to work part time, but to a better paid job.

He's terrified of losing the flat, but at the moment we're left with a full wage to live on after all the bills are paid.

Rumps (Rumps), Friday, 29 December 2006 14:57 (seventeen years ago) link

If you think you could go to a better paid job once you've had several months off work, why not try to go to a better paid job now and start saving some of the extra money? Also, you will have to go back to your old job when you go back (at least for a while) or else you'll arse up your maternity pay entitlement.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, a girl in here came back after mat leave despite claiming that her pregnancy and subsequent leave was the ideal opportunity to find something else. I think your employer is entitled to claim back the 'back to work bonus'.

Rumps (Rumps), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

from what i know and hear you can never afford your kids.

thebingo (thebingo), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:09 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, you have to return to work, else your employers are giving you six months paid leave / job search time. Who the fuck would pay that to someone and not expect them to come back afterwards?

(though it is a good time to go looking elsewhere, and you hand your notice in as soon as possible after you return - well, that's what colleagues of mine have done in the past)

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:12 (seventeen years ago) link

My poor friend has been sucked straight back ino this place and once again she's apathetic like the rest of us.

Ah for the olden days. Bet our grandparents didn't worry about finances and careers before hopping into bed.

Rumps (Rumps), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, if you can manage not to give into the temptation to clothe your kid in designer stuff and don't shower it with ridiculous toys and don't fill your house with pointless gadgets and use real nappies rather than disposables etc etc, then it can't be THAT expensive, surely? I'm pretty sure I grew up without about 90% of the shit that parents give their kids these days, and I turned out OK.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Being able to afford kids, for us, meant not being mired in too much debt (although ironically we carried our heaviest debt load around the time Sarah was born) and having steady jobs that we were pretty sure wouldn't disappear out from under us. Otherwise, a lot of discretionary income just gets diverted from one purpose to another, as in [money for eating out too much] becomes [diapers].

xpost, no, because in our grandparents' day, a lot of kids were an asset, not a liability. (My dad is one of twelve.)

Joe Isuzu's Petals (Rock Hardy), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

don't fill your house with pointless gadgets

Example, some family friends just spent nearly £200 on a baby monitor/alarm thingie. £200!!!! God knows how my mum coped with having to just keep an eye on me.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

x-post If you're just getting standard maternity pay, then you don't have to go back to work at all, you can just let them know you're not coming back. Can't remember when it changed, but it has. You'll get 9 months stat. maternity pay as well, with the option of an additional 3 months.

It's if they give you above and beyond the statutory that they have the right to claim it back, but not all employers will.

Nothing to tell at the minute Ailsa, though Chris and I definitely would like to have kids, I don't think that would come as a big surprise to people though!

vicky (Vicky), Friday, 29 December 2006 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, if you can manage not to give into the temptation to clothe your kid in designer stuff and don't shower it with ridiculous toys and don't fill your house with pointless gadgets and use real nappies rather than disposables etc etc, then it can't be THAT expensive, surely?

I reckon Ava & Tallulah cost us about £230/month in food, clothing and other essentials and, yes, nearly a quarter of that is disposable nappies. That's excluding all the extra washing machine/tumble dryer/central heating/car usage that the kids make necessary (couldn't have T in a room below 18C for the first few weeks, etc) or the hefty occasional outlays (buggy, car seats, cot, changing table).

We get £127/month in Child Benefit and £96/month in Child Tax Credit (they're calendar month equivalents, not what we get every four weeks) so, in theory, it's nearly covered. (The CTC will drop to about half that when T is one and, obviously, the costs will mount then; also, before T arrived and the benefits increased, the disparity between CB+CTC and monthly outlay on A was greater).

We slide ever further into debt, though, but that's mainly pre-parenthood profligacy, spells of unemployment and going horribly overbudget on the house refurb. We spent daft amounts on each other this Xmas too, despite saying we wouldn't... :)

No one can ever afford kids, certainly not underpaid lower-middle-class thirtysomething goofballs like us, but, as Vicky said, you can't wait for the promotion/partnership/Lotto win.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, Vicky, I thought it was a coded announcement of something more concrete than plans...

We probably spend about £200 in the pub in an average month, so losing that in itself should be enough to cope with the expensive early years. Not that we have any intentions right now of having kids, but if we did I can't see myself having any truck with nonsense like changing tables and disposable nappies and £200 baby monitors and stuff (having had it hammered into me by my mum that these things aren't necessary since they didn't have them in her day, yadda yadda yadda). I think we'd manage just fine - most people that I know do.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

we do fine without lots of stuff. we use the top of a dresser as a changing table, and we get most of our toys/books/clothes from the thift stores, but you will have a fight on your hands if you try to take my disposable diapers away from me. anyone who doesn't use them is some sort of smelly smelly saint.

scott seward (121212), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, changing table for the last couple of months has actually been the floor or the bed (while we "work on" the nursery); it seemed essential at the time, giving us lots of storage too (it was only £30 or something in Ikea). I think we'll be eBaying it soon and just plonking something across the cot in future.

Our baby monitor was a gift (and definitely not a £200 model); it went barmy at the beginning of the year (picking up everything but the transmitter) and we don't really need it. We don't live in such a big house that we can't hear the kids fretting/crying from practically everywhere save the shed or the garden.

We seem to run the washing machine semi-continuously already - God knows what it would be like if T was soiling half a dozen cloth diapers a day as well. Good luck doing without the Pampers*!

(* - or eco-friendly equivalent)

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link

then there are the people who don't believe in ANY kind of diaper and who think your kid should be potty-trained by two months or something. which sounds great, i guess. "elimination communication" i believe it's called.

scott seward (121212), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Good luck doing without the Pampers*!

I shall probably never have to face this dilemma, hence why I get to be all uppity about it. How bad can it be, seriously, though? (I used to wipe other people's bums for a living, surely it's easier if it's your own cherished child? If I was really hardcore about it, I'd be all "washing machines? my mum managed without a washing machine" but I'm not a complete moron.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, it does make sense. in a lot of countries people don't have diapers/can't afford them, and kids learn a lot earlier cuz they have to. it's all a diaper lobby conspiracy, i suppose. ah, what are you gonna do? it won't be much longer before cyrus is trained and then we will be done with it all anyway.

scott seward (121212), Friday, 29 December 2006 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

"I used to wipe other people's bums for a living, surely it's easier if it's your own cherished child?"

we aren't talking about the wiping of the bums! you still have to wipe bums with or without disposable diapers. it's the fact that babies poop A LOT. you would be washing diapers ALL DAY if you used cloth diapers. that's the thing.

scott seward (121212), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link

How bad can it be, seriously, though?

The parents of one of my friends had twins and refused to use disposable diapers. To this day (20 years later!) I can still remember the horrible smell of that house.

The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link

I did both, cloth and disposable. Cloth first, with a 3 month gift of diaper service. Then, struggling to maintain that with no washer and having to haul tons of soggy stinky cloth to the laundromat (along with baby), every day. And you either have to wash them in a hot automatic washer, or boil them for hours in many changes of water (which, believe it or not, costs $$ in many places), otherwise diaper rash galore. Believe me childless persons, it can be really really bad. Unfortunately, we didn't live in a community that would tolerate naked babies running around shitting freely outdoors in the summer, no matter how adorable. I would have jumped on that bandwagon in a heartbeat.

And no, you can never afford kids. But that is part of what makes them so precious. They are worth pretty much every sacrifice and hardship, in the long run.

jaq (jaq), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link

DOes cost of laundrette/electricity needed to clean cloth nappies outweight cost of disposables?

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:23 (seventeen years ago) link

In some places, yes. Water costs $ too. Fewer disposables are used vs. cloth (even with wool diaper covers), which is a large part of the equation. Factor in the cost of labor for the person sanitizing (dirty cloth diapers take at least 2 times the amount of work to scrape and rinse (one toilet flush minimum, generally two) after changing than the time it takes to process a dirty disposable) and any "economy" goes out the window.

jaq (jaq), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:44 (seventeen years ago) link

too many variables--are you using a service and what kind of mileage do those delivery vans get? what kind of washer do you have? do you dry in a machine or by line? how far are the disposables traveling and how are they made etc etc.

teeny (teeny), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:46 (seventeen years ago) link

although I'm talking in a cst-to-the-earth kind of way I guess. One of my books (Baby Bargains) said that service is the most expensive, then disposables, then doing your own cloth diapers.

teeny (teeny), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:48 (seventeen years ago) link

I just wondered. What about environmental factors? As I say, I have no vested interest in any of this, but am curious as to the convenience factor/spend-spend-spend attitude of many parents when so many of our parents (presumably) had to do without so many of these luxuries.

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:50 (seventeen years ago) link

also keep in mind that both types have improved dramatically in the last 20 years. Here's a good primer on cloth: http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006/03/qa_cloth_diaper.html

I have only done disposable, although I am thinking of starting to do a half-and-half thing, now that I only have one poop a day to deal with and I generally know when it happens.

teeny (teeny), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, I don't even want to start on the environmental costs of either. There are plenty of studies out there, most outdated and neglectful of some aspect (depending on who funded the study). People are an expensive burden on the planet, no matter their size.

My grandmother (circa 1930) claimed to have potty-trained her kids from birth. Basically, she just knew when to hold them over the toilet.

jaq (jaq), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Hand-wash your nappies in a stream! Everyone's a winner!

(seriously, I have no real bother one way or the other. It always seemed to me that real nappies would be better all round than disposables, but now I'm not so sure. I'm directing my rage solely at people with £200 baby monitors now)

ailsa_xx (ailsa_xx), Friday, 29 December 2006 18:58 (seventeen years ago) link

One of my earliest memories of my mother is seeing her kneeling beside the bath with her sleeves pushed up as far as they'd go, wringing out my sister's nappies before she could put them in the machine. And oh boy, that smell.

Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 29 December 2006 21:13 (seventeen years ago) link

We have an enormous box of washable nappies which we were fully intending to use on Alice, but she is WAY too small for them at the moment (only just out of premature baby size disposables in fact). But when she gets big enough I will let you know how we manage! I must say it's not a tempting prospect at the moment - more because of the extra time involved, which feels like a very scarce commodity right now, than because of smelliness/grossness. But I'm willing to try it.

And I'm definitely with you about needless gadgets ailsa. I think I spent a total of £9 of my own money on preparing for Alice (on clothes at an NCT nearly new sale) and everything else was donated/Freecycled/bought by parents. She's obviously going to cost a lot more now she's actually here but at least babies don't know/care if their gear is second-hand or improvised.

It probably helps that we have no space for anything anyway. But thank god someone else fulfilled Alice's pressing need for a giant corduroy bunny:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/336141847_70fb1e064d.jpg?v=0

Archel (Archel), Saturday, 30 December 2006 06:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Archel, that's totally precious :) Alice is such a doll! Do you find yourself just watching her sleep?

It's my opinion that the most important thing you can give your children, the thing they will truly remember, is your time, and I personally think that the small conveniences of modern living that truly give us more time to spend where we choose are well worth it.

jaq (jaq), Saturday, 30 December 2006 08:37 (seventeen years ago) link

It's my opinion that the most important thing you can give your children, the thing they will truly remember, is your time

Very true. I was going to say, with all this "can we afford it?" talk - the hurtin' isn't just on your wallet (and you can control that to a certain extent by being thrifty), it's on your free time, which (with two or more kids especially) may well dwindle away to nothing.

example-now typing one-fingered with fussy T in crook of arm...gotta go

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Saturday, 30 December 2006 09:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Twohundred pounds on monitor: that'll probably be the one that prevents crib death, right? Not very useful as it tends to be *faulty* (will send of an alarm signal when baby's just asleep). Even though I was so scared of crib death, I decided not to buy it. Not only because of cost price - we could afford it - but it didn't seem trustworthy.

Toys? We have a lot but Ophelia prefers taking out all the paper out of closets. The first half year you don't need much at all.

We didn't think about the cost of having a baby. Mostly because it wasn't a problem. (Being the worrier that I am, it does However I didn't realize how much money can/is spent on a baby! WTF man. I did switch from yr fancy ass (hah!) Pampers to a cheaper (and imo better) alternative. Saves us a ton of money. Same goes with those towelettes: 1 euro instead of 3 euros. Hey and I knit her sweaters. ;-) Just kidding. But if I wanted I could save a lot of money on clothing by knitting all her sweaters (instead of buying'em). Still, no designer clobber for Ophelia. It's ridiculous even if you have the money.

We get £127/month in Child Benefit

WTF! We get about 55 pounds. Oh wait is that for two kids? I put all the money on her savings account.

Archel, that's one of my favourite baby pics EVER.

nathalie (stevienixed), Saturday, 30 December 2006 09:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(Being the worrier that I am,

Oops, this is what happens when you turn around and look at Ophelia crawling around: you forget to type the rest of the sentence.

nathalie (stevienixed), Saturday, 30 December 2006 09:57 (seventeen years ago) link


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