Dear ILE - a plea

I may do accidentally my saying something that I mean as amusing or just plain crass, that comes out wrong.

I mean, ffs, if you don't like a person, ignore his/her posts. I know that can be hard, but at least try.

people will never just ignore that which they don't like completely. it would be like not speaking out against something you disagree about or take offence to.

It'd be nice for a while.

That said, I nearly posted some nasty comments as well and then realized that I was just doing what I am so opposed to: nasty bullying.

http://www.ics.forth.gr/~gaga/family/graphics-adoptions/churchmousegraphics.com/hugs%20and%20flowers.gif
Hey, GROUPHUGGELZ. heh

the internets is a part of real life where instead of spending time with people you a) like b) can earn money with you spend time with a self-selected variety of people, some of whom you like, some of whom are complete fuckwads you want banned.

crosspost

Yeah, but there's still a difference between reacting to something they say, and just reacting to them regardless of what they do. There people I don't like in real life, but I don't go on shouting "HEY, ASSHOLE!" every time I catch a glance of them.

i guess it is. but the aggro i have with some people on ILX can sometimes be just as annoying and can have some implications on my social life (living in london as i do).

PWEASE

lolz
But oh, that's not so fair. Telling somebody you dislike them is hardly an atrocity. It's not possible to like everyone.

The best thing is how they always look like they're smiling at you.

Is that in Wales?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/388510636_ee98553599_m.jpg

Having said that, there has been some seriously nasty and deplorable shit going down recently, exemplified in the bullying of Louis, who seems totally inoffensive to me ninety percent of the time (unlike some of his more persistent bullies).

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/386735658_bc58d0a825_m.jpg

xpost

when did '133t' speak take off on ILE anyway? only in the last couple of years have i really noticed it here. even 'lol' and similar didn't seem so ubiquitous three years ago.

xpost - resumo, it's been around since I joined in Nov 2001, I reckon.

xpost

But it's possible to not tell them.

spells TACT

(this is the suggestion re 'how 2 win')

maybe.

For my part it's not a question of feeling 'safe'. I couldn't care less if someone I've never met & never will slags me off. I can ignore it quite easily. It's just where's more fun to be.

other than i guess the general BLITZ SPIRIT that emerges in such disaporatic (a word now) situations. and there being a bit less traffic (tho all the regulars persist).

I wouldn't like it. So I do tend to stay on threads where I know people will be civil to me and, by and large, to each other. I think if someone was actually rude to me I would leave and never come back.

tbqh i have FAR less problem with the back-and-forth mark is complaining about than attempts at actual character advice, eg

"Also, seriously man, burying everything in leetspeak and ILX in-jokes doesn't make you look adorable, it makes you look incomprehensible and defensive.
-- Andrew Farrell (afarrel...), February 14th, 2007."

and something similar mark said to teh kit the other day. i thought teh kit was dead wrong wrt louis and dog latin preceisely because it was never really personal but based on comedy internet personas; it's when the 'you could be a better person' craps somes in that i start to worry.

personae surely

this is correct but a lot of the stuff aimed at l jagger goes waaay beyond comedy banter (the clue is when it's not funny) or what he could reasonably have expected to have brought on himself. lots of people seem unable to tell when they're crossing the line from banter into vicious bullying - a lot of these people have fairly obvious psychological/emotional 'issues' though so it makes sense.

I'm sorry, but "be excellent to each other" isn't such a big ask, is it?

1) nasty 90% of the time, or
2) gets 2 posts a day.

Enrique - this recent trend towards revisionism on ILX 'Oh it was always zings and cartoonishness' is quite bizarre, considering you've been around quite a while by this stage - not that it's all you by any stage. A lot of people have made friends through ILX, this is not an insignificant part of What It Means to many.

The Lex OTM.

Also, there are different cultures and age groups and lifestyles at work here, and what may seem like "playful kidding around" to one person is utterly offensive and unacceptible bullying to another.

this is something i tend to try to factor in, ie there are several people who i expect little more from than lame attempts to bully others over the internet (am not sure which is lamer - when it's ineffectual because it's the internet and they're only hardmen in front of a computer; or when, as per the l jagger googlebait thread, when it actually becomes potentially harmful). but what mark said - the conversion of friendly, respectful people into part of the bullying hivemind is the most depressing - is probably the worst aspect of it, when people you know can and have been civil suddenly join in the bullying (cf dan perry's borderline-homophobic comments towards me yesterday, which were more of a nasty shock than dom and ethan's outright homophobic ones)

This is an interesting point... Maybe the younger people who've grown up with the Internet have a different attitude towards this kind of stuff, whereas older and less net-experienced people expect the same sort of civility as in real life to work here.

Hrrrrr. To contrast, there's a group of older people who have been on the interweb since the dawn of time usenet, who have a more pleasant reccollection of when ILX (or indeed the interweb) was smaller and more well behaved.

I may be called patronising for saying this, but something I try (operative word: try) to remember in my interactions with some people is that what a 20 year old American male finds hilarious and funny is probably not the same thing that a mid 30s female is going to find amusing. Nor should it be.

Tact is something which usually must be learned through experience - I certainly was never tactful when I was 20. I was just lucky enough not to have to do my growing up so painfully in public.

-- temporary enrique (miltonpinsk...), February 14th, 2007. (temporary enrique)

really, enrique? really?

-- lexpretend (lexusjee...), February 14th, 2007.

Lex, I am prepared to transfer, immediately, £1,000 pounds into either your Paypal account or your bank account if you can show me a Livejournal account, or in fact any evidence, of me having been dumped at any point in the past... 13 months?

£1,000. Cash money /Wilmer Valderamma.

That offer stands for "others" as well. £1,000 per person.

up to this point i got really excited. woohoo easy money etc.
then lost interest

Fall Out Boy - Infinity On High (register)(forgotten login)
ilXor.com > ILE | ILM
I Love Music | New Answers | Unanswered Questions | Ask A Question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Album of the year, right?
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), January 25th, 2007.

xp

This is all my own opinion but the amount of hypocrisy displayed on any of these meta threads always amazed me. Mark has already had a go at people (incl. me if I read it correctly) about this 'bullying hivemind.' FFS people, I'm not a bad person! I genuinely don't think that anyone on ILX is necessarily BAD but I do think that people don't know when to stop or don't have enough consistency between what they accuse others of doing and practice themselves. I can see so many cases of someone calling someone else out for what they have done only recently!

I actually like ILX, there are people on it that I feel dislike ILX but can't help themselves. Like any community there are the winder-uppers, the shit-stirrers and the downright snarky but it's all online. ILX means a lot to people, it's made people friends and at one point we even had a houseband! Come on, the same old zings are getting boring at this point. Just to pick an example that has already been mentioned a couple of times: LJ. In the beginning he was treated in a manner that surprised nearly everyone but has become one of us. The zings need to end as does holding him or anyone (including Mic3key who I had a go at on the BLAM as barman thread I will admit over a perceived negative-toned thread hijacking [ref. to Mark earlier in post]) up to ridicule.

I have certain posters I have issues with, we all do. We all just need to learn to ignore things. You don't need a killfile, you need self control.

the hell?!

MIA?

Kevin, the posters we have issues with need to learn to ignore us ;)

Sorry for coming on all Daily Mail what with the "kids today got not respect" thing, but honestly, it ticks me off. I could give examples (on this thread!) of people behaving with little respect, or without civility, or just forgetting that they're not 9 years old and running around on tarmac anymore. What annoys me is that you're clever people with intelligent views and shining personalities, so why you behaving like a dick? And don't say it's the internet that brings the worst out in people; that's as shaky as "I was drunk, and that's my excuse for why I glassed him." No, it's people just being horrible.

I guess some people are more likely than others to be horrible. Well, those who aren't likely to be horrible, don't get involved, just take it like a man and walk on. If a drunk shouts at you in the street, you don't stop and argue, you just keep walking. So if someone's mean to you round here, honestly, ignore them, and they'll go away.

Grrr, I shouldn't post this, it's a shit idea, cos it sounds patronising and preachy. But bollox to it, I love this stupid fucking internet board, and it makes me sad that some people want to kill it.

God, the fact that you actually think this explains so much about you and why you act the way that you do.

I cannot get my head around such a mindview or why you would believe such a thing, but can you honestly not accept that this "dickishness" is making it a hellish experience for other people?

(x-post)

I trust people realize this is a gigantic pile of horseshit, particularly since it is coming from ILM's resident booster of racists.

(Lex, if you get to play the unwarranted slander game, I do too.)

This is the thing, nobody gets clowned on ILx (or at least clowned enough to make it visible for other people) without indicating that they 're up for some ball-breaking. You cry fie upon ILx posters on your blog, Louis Jagger will throw the ball back if you throw one at him, Dog Latin was like a fucking attack hound who'd smelled meat at times, Mickey is Mickey... it's not like ILx is walking up to people at random and smashing them into the gym lockers, it's more like one of those "white collar boxing" clubs. Although more a "white collar boxing" club where the matches end with people saying "But I didn't want to have a fight, I got into this by accident, seriously"

The houseband was recently demobbed and not be discussed on ILX out of respect or so I gathered which is why it was only referred to as a concept.

That's EXACTLY what I mean! You're great! And yet even YOU get caught up in the rote abuse (hardly vicious in your case, I know) of the easy targets.

(As I say, there are people being horrible on this thread. Please stop being mean. And don't go "He started it" because you know that's back to our 9 yr olds in the playground again.)

Because it's "Let's decide between ourselves what the truth actually is" can be summed up as "None of it actually happened, it is a fiction". So, no thread, plus I'm not watching it.

Back to the subject in hand...

There seems to be a culture of "is he wanting it?" attack dogging. I've never wanted it so I don't partake in it. And don't recall being attacked here ever.

No. No it's not. It just ISN'T. Where the fuck did you get the idea that this was what ILX was for? This is so wrong-headed I can't even begin to get my head around where to start.

Are you trolling right now? I mean, are you trying to start a fight out of this, is that why you're saying this? Or do you actually BELIEVE this?

"i tend to pay no attention to what any popstar says in interviews though! i mean, when i talked to pusha t he didn't know what a choir was, which is arguably dumber than beyoncé not bothering to go into the complexities of 'irreplaceable's narrative.
-- lexpretend (lexusjee...), February 13th, 2007.

"do you really think beyoncé's going to say outright in interviews "the song is a lie to myself"? that is not the sort of thing i've ever heard any pop star admit to, it would be...too revealing. i'm not sure it matters what beyoncé says about it.
-- lexpretend (lexusjee...), February 13th, 2007.

we have established exactly why it would be a bad idea for beyoncé (or any pop star doing a similar song) to openly talk about how it's a lie! it doesn't matter what she says in interviews, anyway.

-- lexpretend (lexusjee...), February 13th, 2007."

I WONDER WHAT POSSIBLE SUBTEXT THERE COULD BE

Yeah, but for some of us, even having to read other people doing this is kind of tiresome. You post on a thread, then someone else posts, then someone who has a beef with them sees that they've posted and follows them to be hilariously dickish, and the next thing you know, the nice conversation you were having is gone. It's kind of annoying.

i like a bit of ballbreaking but you probably do go too far Madam Dom. A LOT of people do seem to be sick of it. I just don't know if there are MORE people on ILX who enjoy it. Maybe 50/50?

(Lex, if you get to play the unwarranted slander game, I do too.)

oh it is all there if people want to look and read the obvious into it.

fwiw, no one complained when i, along with many others inc yourself, said i liked music made by people who were sexist (sundry hip-hop) or homophobic (sundry dancehall). i still really like the paris hilton album, which doesn't mean i approve of whatever racist things she's said (i haven't seen the video).

yrs,
flouncy, shallow, image-obsessed-and-i-bet-limp-wristed-and-lisping-too drama queen

(xpost I've seen hitler's paintings. They rubbish)

xpost

including one purely for ball-breaking where people can be as nasty as they wanna be

This actually worked for a forum I was on about 10 years ago.

There is only one code of conduct, be civil to everyone, everywhere.

Mark S, if you want to discuss any incidences take it off board. I am not very appreciative of being used as some kind of beacon of pile-on bullying.

Yeah, but for some of us, even having to read other people doing this is kind of tiresome. You post on a thread, then someone else posts, then someone who has a beef with them sees that they've posted and follows them to be hilariously dickish, and the next thing you know, the nice conversation you were having is gone. It's kind of annoying.

This is true. See above my thing about crossing over of threads.

xxp

sort of but it doesn't have the same audience as ILE so doesn't work. as long as ILE remains as big focus point for everyone all the negativity will infiltrate here.

lame: people who want proper fights to prove their masculinity doing so in organised fight club style setting
so much further beyond lame: the same, but only in front of their laptops :o

I love Reasonable Discourse.

xxposts

I disagree. One of the things I like about ILE is the random collection of threads like the Beryl thread and the banal conversations thread, and the stuff about telly programmes, and Scott's pictures, and so on and so on and they're all in one place, and I don't have to go to separate boards to find them.

Not even close, unless you mean by posting volume.

i'm aware this is a virtue for some

but it's already happened with many subjects and should happen with many more

i dislike this halfway-house situation as it stands. I Love Most Everything more like etc.

Nobody ever posts on it.

Oh, I get it.

but it's already happened with many subjects and should happen with many more

Tell us why?

This really proves my point.

I mean, I'll be perfectly honest about why I started mine own little Balkan - because I was being repeatedly and focusedly bullied on a variety of threads by very specific individual(s), which was killing those threads. A single thread to corral my chatter also had the result of the ability to ban bullies focused on a person.

Maybe others are more localised for localised chatter that would bore/clutter the rest of ILX, but I would venture to theorise that much of the "Balkanisation" is an indirect *result* of bullying and "Fight Club" Culture, not a cause.

as with 'reg-only' and killfile i'd like it to at least be TRIED so we can actually see if the pros outweigh the cons in practice. yes there are drawbacks but imo none significantly worse than status quo (lol)

it wasn't too long ago that anyone had the ability to set up their board. presumably this option is never coming back.

anyway, i think ilx is at its best when it sticks to ANSWERING tHE QUESTION (you know, the bit at the top) and goes off course when it becomes about talking about other posters. The good posts in this thread are about the topic. The bad ones are about poster x and whether or not they are y.

i've got half a mind to ask mods to remove any personally directed posts on the main boards, at least for a bit. Unless the thread is about a particular person, natch.

attack someone's ideas, not them.

-WDYLL?

-can't say

A ban on off-topic might be nice, but then, off-topic can be fun. Oh, I don't bloody know.

Why is there no going back, particularly on the boards that could by now fit into one thread? What's the moral force behind 'should' there? I just don't get your viewpoint.

I haven't been posting much because I haven't noticed many threads that make me think or capture my attention or make me want to write a post longer than a few lines. I don't know if others feel the same.

I think the result of that is the shorter more smart assed post, which can be funny.

Some of the recent fights have been kind of insane I guess, but I'm not sure are they actually more ramped up than before, or, and this is crucial, are there just more layers to the onion that is the board now. What I mean is are people so disconnected from whatever idea they have of ILX in their heads, and are there so many posters now, that these huge fights appear even crazier because they don't know those engaging in them, or they seem distant.

Sometimes I think I get this, all of a sudden everyone is all "louis jagger wtf" or yesterday's row, and you think "right then...hmmm" and have no real idea what to contribute.

x-post some posters were so beautiful that god had to call them back to his arms

-WDYLL?

-can't say
1. That's talking about yourself, which is surely OK. Posting on a WDYLL "you're an ugly shite" == not OK. And also, like I said, you can talk about someone when they're the subject of the thread (eg "What do I do about my X?")

um hello what is the "topic" of the local/clique threads exactly?
um, hi, part of the problem is that because people are too wary to use the open thread they're clustering into the fucking cliques! But, surely the topic of the DC thread is life as lived by the people in DC, no? I mean, the local threads (that I've read) are almost free of vicious attacks on other people in the thread. Which is presumably partly why they're so popular.

millions of xposts and Laurel OTM

The Natural Life Cycle of Mailing Lists

Exactly, that's the flaw in the argument. And making them exempt wouldn't work cos a rule with exeptions is no rule at all.

I would be in favour of a "DON'T BE A DICK" rule, but one person's dickish behaviour is another person's valiant defender of truth and honour.

Maybe an "IGNORE THE DICK" rule. If someone's being a dick, ignore them. No-one likes being ignored, and so the horrible people would go away and the nice people would stay being nice. How's that?

Unless there is some kind of way a majority can register their support to have the under-subscribed boards ditched, and then Stet or whoever can act on that, it seems an irreversible process.

And why are you assuming that just because I wrote 'should' I feel I have the moral high ground?

What do you actually think should happen? Leave things as they are? If it is broke don't try and fix it as you'll only end up with a different kind of broken?

even if dom puts a pic up?

Unenforceable, unworkable.

You can't really do that but not direct it at somebody in particular.

And as OTM as Laurel may be, it's asking a lot of moderators to police the boards for anyone talking about ILX, tho i guess meta threads could be zapped easily enough.

What if people who love books or cooking or whatever just start posting their threads on ILE? Why does it need to be so official?

A personal attack on an annoying dick isn't going to make them shut up or stop, it's just going to increase the amount of bickering and insulting on the boards!

xpost
And as OTM as Laurel may be, it's asking a lot of moderators to police the boards for anyone talking about ILX, tho i guess meta threads could be zapped easily enough.
Yeh, talking about ILX is probably OK, if a bit dull. Talking (shit) about other posters isn't.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/381843130_1b9c23ee39.jpg

(And don't say that there is one on Firefox, blah blah)

xpostx2

What if people who love books or cooking or whatever just start posting their threads on ILE? Why does it need to be so official?

-- ledge (tomdotledge...)

otm -- also i don't dislike ILF but that's exactly what's happened so it may as well not exist.

I think the reason local threads are fight free is just familiarity. That's the same reason football threads are some of the most enjoyable, even though I'm no expert I find myself posting on them more because at least there is banter, and it's fairly constant (eg Liverpool always shit etc)

I also get this from ILM despite all the criticisms.

It's quite crazy really to think that ILE, a board which is so open ended in terms of topic, has managed to provide a sense of this familiarity or community in the past, and still does.

I think if people really want a change to the board then they have to give some of their brains to it, and start interesting threads, not attempt to regulate it.

Maybe a lot of people are busy and check in now and again and find nothing to post about. I don't know if it's a way back in but lately if I'm bored and want to have a chat on ILE I start a thread, something stupid, eg Oatibix. Selfish maybe to just use the board this way but it keeps links with people I suppose.

ROFL.

when did '133t' speak take off on ILE anyway?

Before you were here. wink wink I remember when Mark S and Starry would interact and I was like: WTF are they SAYING? Those were the days (that I found ILM very intellectually challenging hence my sporadic postings; it was just so daunting/interesting).

I don't think that ILX has gone down the dumpster really. There are much less intellectual (*cough* *cough*) threads but that has more to do with the evolution towards just knowing eachother and being pally. I can'yt imagine having intell. conversations with my husband all the time, really.

I dislike the fact that some things have splintered off, cooking, books and film belong here really. Cooking would get so much more traffic if it just kept it's threads on the main board.

VERY much OT(f)M.

Ian Riese-Moraine is the first to come to mind. Of course, the bullys might say he wasn't enriching and worthwhile, which is the reason they were mean to him, but why is up to them to decide? Anyway, there are probably many other posters who have left because of this, it's just that people probably drift off gradually instead of posting a message saying "I'M LEAVING AND THE REASON IS THIS". And no doubt there are many posters (myself included) who post less these days because of the meanness.

Or, y'know, people could stop talking about books on ILB and start a thread on ILE, as has happened.

And why are you assuming that just because I wrote 'should' I feel I have the moral high ground?

Well I thought it was strange for you to be taking a moral stance on anything, mostly you're just "This is what everyone does, why change it?"! And particularly on this, where you're going "this is happening, so we should do this more", but missing the clause about whether it's working. You're beginning to sound like you started from the Bold Step and worked backwards.

What do you actually think should happen? Leave things as they are? If it is broke don't try and fix it as you'll only end up with a different kind of broken?

Dude, I didn't say any of this. I just don't think there's any serious movement away from a core ILE. Or at least, none compared with 6 months ago.

I never had it to lose.

I think partly for the reasons I described above (also because ILB used to be a pretty robust separate site). If I start a thread about a specific book on ILB, I can be fairly confident that no-one's going to image flood it or start a row on it, because those things don't happen there.

Sadly, posting doesn't seem to happen there anymore either, so maybe it should be chopped. I don't know. It's not my board.

Never gotten any sort of explanation on this one. If it's "populist"-related, forget it.

I don't really see it as a 'moral' stance, I'm just trying to offer logical/practical solutions as I see it.

"this is happening, so we should do this more", but missing the clause about whether it's working

i'm saying it's not working because it's a halfway house solution and i'd rather have all or 'nothing', then it would work.

I think the intention should be that this should be mostly true of ILE/ILM as well!

Yeh, I guess. But look at it this way. Can you ignore someone who annoys you most of the time? (Not YOU specifically Dan, I mean YOU the reader) Let's assume you can. Well done, you've just stopped ALL personal attacks on you. Just by ignoring them!

Oh, it's their opinions that you dislike? Attack their opinions to shit, really attack them, show the world how they are wrong. But don't attack them personally, or they'll probably ignore you.

This is not true. I've been attacked/insulted crudely by someone just because I posted a view that differed from theirs. I could keep on trying to ignore them but not if they're going to continue sniping at my posts regardless of whether I 'encourage' it or not. Once or twice is fine whatever but the same shit over years is not.

Who are the Poptimists and where did they go?

including one purely for ball-breaking where people can be as nasty as they wanna be

Hi, we did this in 2004, it was called Noise Board.

xpost: JB, I did precisely that yesterday and was told on this thread that I was being ad hominem and borderline homophobic, so vigorously attacking someone's opinions isn't really going to discourage annoying bullshit behavior.

Noise Board is far beyond just ball-breaking in terms of scope tho.

It's interesting (to me, anyway) because part of me wishes there was some way that you could retain a kind of ownership on threads you start on ILE, and appeal to the mods when people are going off-topic, and so protect the thread and hopefully have it be the kind of conversation you wanted to have, but then Ronan could have been a dick and said "hey, I want all these people talking about their food allergies to start their own thread, this is a thread for Oatibix and nothing else".

I think the intention should be that this should be mostly true of ILE/ILM as well!

Well, that's how we feel, but clearly the people who think that kind of behaviour is funny don't feel that way.

or in one or two cases, frequently.

UH

(just cos ILX wasn't erally like that when i got dragged in kicking and screaming yo)

indeed, and then they'll deny they ever made a personal attack at all despite the evidence being RIGHT FUCKING THERE (see: 7 posts up)

If it was just you, then fair enough. But if everyone ignored them (kinda what I meant anyway, sorry) then they'd soon stop, and either start being nice or go away. After all, the worst thing to do to an attention seeker is to give them no attention. But maybe I've got an optimistic view of the world, and I assume that everyone on this thread is a nice person who really can just rise above any sniping and be a grown-up. Sorry guys.

If only more people were, like, "hi dere it is the internets" and didn't really connect it to life, maybe we could all shrug it off...? But then, what good would online/written/anything communication be at all?

he's talking about marcello who gives a radically different version of himself to different people on different days and you can't expect people to just ignore him cos he's a dick to steve, especially because a fair number of people know him offline and don't notice him being a dick. in fact his better friends do seem to step in and say stop being a cunt when he's trolling. so i think yr strategy is the opposite of right.

Steve, I know that Noise Board is more than just "ball-breaking," but I thought it was worth pointing out that previous instances of "why don't you start your own board?" haven't exactly diminished the level of bullying and zing culture. Since lots of people, like myself, tend to jump around from ILM to ILE to NB, the mentality of one board is often going to seep into that of another.

You could argue that if more people did connect it to real life, then maybe they wouldn't be so dickish.

Speaking subjectively, they have, but they've also allowed it to get a lot of local positive reinforcement going on, so when they spill back over here it's more toxic than before.

I think the problem is that Everyone has a Posse, so no-one's that bothered about what other gangs think of them.

fixed.

see I hate this kind of thing. To me the idea of thread "ownership" and making things stick to one person's idea of on-topic seems really non-organic and against the spirit of board like this altogether. I know it's a matter of opinion/perceoption but I hate it when people start acting like spoiled only children when it comes to "their" threads. (not saying that you're doing this accentmonkey)

-- Ms Misery (missmisery7...), February 14th, 2007.

OTM

did NB introduce this concept?

was it just an honest approach? taking what already happened on ILE and ILM to a logical conclusion?

-- resumo impetus (n...), February 14th, 2007.

It was right is everyone's face, Tyler and I just made it visible. It was on the tip of everyone's tongue, Tyler and I just gave it a name.

Also Sam OTM about ownership.

Some people will find a way to perpetuate feuds and things no matter how much others ignore them or remove themselves. Almost anyone can occasionally act dickish. Usually it says more about what is going on in their own lives, than in the life of ILX - until it takes a major blowup to set ILX acquivvering.

This thread itself has revealed just what different views different people on ILX have about ILX. It's certainly been illuminating in that way. I've generally been feeling relentlessly "OTM" to Accentmonkey.

I suppose you're right about the flameculture of NB infecting ILE, Stevem.

this is steve from forever ago and i don't know if it's entirely serious, but, no! to it all.

xpost

Kate, you're probably the most likely to fit in on the noise board of all the people who dislike it!!!

There was a board where my name was verboten to the point where accounts were deleted for mentioning me offhand. Funny, after I left (4 years ago?), the community decayed to nothing.

Yeah, ditto.

and i don't know if it's entirely serious,

of course it was serious

ok, well, again, i think it's a terrible idea. the all-in-together messiness and the friction of ile is its strength, maybe its ONLY strength. thread balkanization is one thing; more and more board balkanization will be the heat-death of the whole enterprise, i'm sure of it.

M Grout so OTM!

I do think that if a thread has started to discuss (or avoid) a certain specific subject, people should stick to the topic for the most part. If other subjects arise, new threads can come up. (the way that the "Self" thread evolved out of the "dating non-vegetarians" thread, to me, was a very good example of that.)

In a perfect world, one wouldn't need the concept of "ownership" over threads, because people would be reasonable and polite and not drag threads off topic unduly (Something I used to do myself terribly, before I had the 'Cooler thread to corral all my current obsessions into.) or degenerate into personalness. But the world is not perfect, and threads *do* get prematurely atrophied - or unreasonably blown up into hellish conflicts - when it would have been a lot more interesting if they had stuck to their original remit.

people, here, are exactly like how they are, "for real." i think a lot of times they don't even know how, but they are.

what so there is some sort of ceiling to balkanisation? anymore and the engines cannae take it cap'n? doubt this myself

again all i am advocating is a quicker move towards what started happening 2/3 years ago. logical progression and conclusion. because i don't think this thing has a reverse gear.

I'm often more charming, witty, and better looking here.

(Take no notice, I have no Idea what I mean by that, I think)

This whole spectacle hasn't really been edifying for anyone especially Lex and Dom. FWIW the post Lex linked to wasn't about Dom getting dumped nor was it about a suicide attempt, but it did paint Dom in a very poor light indeed which is probably why a) he got so enormously pissed off and b) he made up that suicide stuff as an appeal to sympathy and a way of winning a fight.

Many xposts - using the noise board as a scapegoat for everything that's wrong with ILX is disingenous considering the real bitter rivalries stretch back way before that and the noise board was actually set up in the first place to keep this stuff OFF the rest of ILE.

The point is that the people going "ooh you are all being nasty and bullying" and the people going "ooh you people are just being oversensitive" are NEVER going to agree so there's no point in even having this argument.

The problem with zing culture is its BORING. You open any thread and then there's the same four or five posters all zinging each other and you can tell THEY'RE not even finding it particularly entertaining, they're just doing it because they're bored and they can't stop posting. Enrique did it about four posts into this thread with that knackered old Mark C/Pringles meme that surely only the most easily amused can still find funny. It's fucking annoying for the rest of us to have to trawl though as well.

Might I add that I think the turning point for ILX was when the number of posters who didn't know or care about Freaky Trigger exceeded the number of posters who did?)

This is OTM I think, the moment when the sense of cohesive community sort of evaporated and as did any claim to some sort of universal 'ethos' of the boards. And although Ethan asks can someone please name any of the intelligent, enriching, worthwhile posters who left because ilx was 'too mean'? it's pretty clear that the likes of Tom E, Mark S, John D and so forth stopped posting as much (if not left) because the overall atmosphere was something they didn't really want to be involved in.

so I could edit messages and embed audio after ILE banned me from doing it!

yeah no-one is really saying this. see my post re 'boards vs boards' mentality.

But the world is not perfect, and threads *do* get prematurely atrophied - or unreasonably blown up into hellish conflicts - when it would have been a lot more interesting if they had stuck to their original remit.

they got exactly as interesting, or not, or atrophied, or blown up, based on what the people participating in them wanted at the time. look, this is a market, not a project. you have to take the occasional shitty outcomes with a little zen grimace and just get on to the next thing, srsly.

as i SAID, but i expect nothing less from them so it had less impact.

There are some subjects on which I'd rather have one post an hour, which was on topic and thought out - than 100 posts in a row of meaningless chatter and nastiness.

not a week seems to go by on watercooler threads without some massive argument about what can and can't be talked about on them.

It reminds me of that Twilight Zone movie where the kid had special powers and turned his house into a cartoon world, and nobody dared say anything against him.

i *might* be exaggerating a little there tho

Sometimes I like to take a kitten in a can, chew it up, and use the resulting paste as a sandwich spread between two intact kittens in cans.

I get this with Jon too, but it's probably 50% projection (and he must surely expect it if not enjoy it).

Yeah, I forgot to say, that's brilliant.

-Football/sport
-Big Brother/reality TV shows

That's the point of them. If a person wishes to talk about those things, there are dozens of other threads on ILX on those subjects.

People may say that it's random that I picked those two specific subjects to ban, but it's not. Those are the things that people chatter about when they've got nothing else to talk about. The rest of the world - well, my bloody office, people in the pub and on the bus - I have to put up with it there, I want to just draw a line in the sand where I do not have to listen to it.

The early pre-cooler thread was an experiment to find out that if those "substitute for conversation" topics were banned, what would people talk about? Would they feel freer to talk about themselves and their own lives/concerns? What other things would people chat about? Now, obviously, it turned out to be a success, and there is a culture there which a lot of people enjoy and stay for - EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T LIKE ME. Funny, that.

As ILX has got nastier, I've got more defensive on them, yes.

And people have joined in the conversation/atmosphere who don't understand the principles of why those certain things are banned, and then go off and start massive rows when asked not to talk about sport and/or reality TV programmes. Which again, makes me defensive that the 'Cooler is getting ... *infected* with the whole culture it was trying to avoid.

Upset about locking bummers thread?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/LimitedLiabilityGirl/LokiSulk.jpg

so much so i don't even see the problem... jokes, but yeah i am a bit, but less than OTHERS I COULD NAME. i have no respect for this thread and the tired zingle i came up with was all it really deserved. note steve thought it'd be deleted, and i kinda did too.

+
other people's programming
computer games
other people having sex
etc.

basically anything that doesn't interest you right? i mean why not just admit it?

Which makes me think that all the hand-wringing about how poor LJ is a great example of the nasty dickishness of ILX not only bullshit, but insulting. It seems that he needs your hand-holding about as much as he needs serious advice on how to lead his love-life from you people. So, perhaps we can drop that trope, yes?

It's not like ILE was wall to wall threads about sport and Big Brother ever. There must be more to it than this.

It seems fair enough to want to carve out little niches for ourselves and our friends/anyone who'll play along, but when this happens I dislike the pretence that ILE has any real meaning still. It's lost a lot of it's value conceptually as a result.

isn't this what i just said re balkanization??

Suggesting that there are other threads where people could get more helpful advice on programming is not the same as shouting at people.

Computer games come under sport, as far as I'm concerned.

Shouting at other people for having sex is so clearly a joke that I wouldn't have thought even you would take it seriously, Stevem!

There are many times that I've suggested and/or "shouted" that people take a subject elsewhere, usually if I think it's going to be a long and involved conversation. I do the same thing myself if I'm on a tear about Tiffany Lamps or Am I A Hott Scot Or Not (recent threads I have started so as not to bore the 'Cooler with whatever has caught mine eye) and don't think the general regulars are interested.

basically anything that doesn't interest you right? i mean why not just admit it?

I do admite it! All the time! I've never been anything other than honest about them being threads FOR MY PLEASURE, INTEREST AND ENTERTAINMENT. It's a wonder to me that other people post to them at all sometimes.

if people don't like the atmosphere of the 'Cooler, then there is a whole interweb of other threads out there that they could be enjoying and contributing to! This is not said with nastiness or elitism or anything else, but in the original ILX spirit of DO NOT READ IF YOU HATE US. Is that really so hard?

I know that I am unlikely to like the atmosphere or spirit of the Noize Board. Guess what? I don't read it! Ditto football threads, big brother threads and threads about knitting!

And people have joined in the conversation/atmosphere who don't understand the principles of why those certain things are banned

This is in fairness a retroactive application of (a quite interesting) principle - the only reason given until now was "Kate Said No".

erm did you miss the whole googlebait episode then?

No, because for every Louis Jagger who makes a stand and fights on through all the bullshit and stays, there must be loads who read that sort of stuff and don't ever post at all. I mean, sometimes 60% of traffic is from googlers, and they aint all stayin.

This is not said with nastiness or elitism or anything else, but in the original ILX spirit of DO NOT READ IF YOU HATE US. Is that really so hard?
DO NOT HATE IF THEY READ YOU, though!

Because the coders and mods aren't man enough to fight off spammers and locked unreg users.

x-post to Stet.

Better hair and tits, but more pudge.

oh, was it? when did any of those three people say this?

xp

oh does ILX still get spam? i haven't seen any in months and months. and months. funny.

Next time, try actually reading my whole post.

There's a difference between laughing at the occasional well-timed zing (most people do this) and wanting to be in a place where it's like that more often than not. Pretending that no intelligent or valued posters have ever been put off by a consistent bad atmosphere in parts of the boards is ridiculous.

we shouldn't have that argument again tho

But what you have got to get clear, Kate, is the difference between someone mentioning something verboten **in passing** and 'turning the thread into a thread about that topic'.

(checks to see which thread we are on. OK am in clear)

This is me, then every now and then I get lured in by a thread like this and have next to no idea what everyone's on about.

This has been true from day one. Whether the reason is "I can't post here, you're all too intellectual" or "I can't post here, you're all too mean" or "I can't post here, you all know each other", the end result is the same; most random Googlers don't post here. Unless you've been canvassing Googlers as to why they dip into ILX and don't stick around, this is a wholly specious and misleading argument.

This may sound elitist, but I'd rather have the googlers who can deal with the intellectualism or inside jokes than those who can deal with the meanness.

(x-post)

This thread is a plea to people to not act like bullies when they're not bullies. Very different.

There is an inherent presumption here that people who can deal with environment X will behave like Y when introduced into it that I don't agree with. I also think it's incredibly disingenuous to expect that any community, whether it is online or in real life, will retain the same feel as time goes on unless said community features some level of brainwashing in its induction process.

Robin C quit posting so much b/c there was a couple of regulars who were argumentative towards him in a way he didn't like. This isn't supposition, he told me this in an email. This was also a long, long time ago. I do miss Robin participating, I must admit.

xposts

this is totally right and nothing else really needs to be said.

xpost: Define "implode".

Who's asking for that? There seems to be a feeling that the place we've arrived at currently is overly vicious, and this thread was started to ask people not to be like that. It has nothing (in my mind, at least) to do with ye glory Greenspun days in the slightest.

Collapse. Whether it's everyone leaving, or most people leaving and a core remaining.

xposts

You're right, but unless one's attitude is "nothing will ever change", there's some point in trying to bring up things people feel are making the community worse, and discuss whether or not something can or should be done about them. As we are doing now.

xpost: Collapse. Whether it's everyone leaving, or most people leaving and a core remaining.

What are you talking about??? ILE currently has well over 100 consistent, active posters every day; ditto ILM.

Neither: I certainly don't want every googler to join, or I'll spend all my time looking up MySpace passwords; nor do I mind looking bad. What I don't want is a forum that's so vicious in parts that reasonable, intelligent people arrive and go "jesus! fuck this noise", while a good portion of current members are hiding out in their "safe" threads. What is the point of that?

(Nor do I want the reverse, which is that it ends up attracting the type that are all "wayhey! get in, it's a big pagga over here, I'll join, HAY FUK U ALL")

The point is that people are finding spaces where they feel comfortable participating. I've always hated this argument because the not-so-subtle subtext is "I find all of you boring/unworthy, I wish some interesting people would show up/my real friends would come back." However, because no one wants to look bad, no one wants to come out and say that.

You can't have a forum that is wide open to anyone who wants to participate and then complain because it isn't attracting "the right people"; either the forum itself has to change so you can control who has access to it and how they post (or the forum has controls that let you filter the content to your liking, if you don't want to be draconian) or you take the good with the bad.

Because the arguments (well, some of them :) are equally good if you're comparing to "the way we think the board could be".

xpost to Laurel: Yes, we probably are! They would kill the HipHop in the 90s thread, for a start (over 30% of traffic on some days!)

how many of them are spambots?
Not terribly many, actually. They're quite a lot of traffic, but they aren't great in number.

No you wouldn't! That's like expecting every person who reads a random online article/blog is going to fill out the comment form!

I don't know if anything can be read into that, though, Stet. When the AHOT list was at its peak, there were 500+ ppl subscribed, about 30-40 of whom ever posted at all Likewise AH, that still has I believe over 1000 subscribers, I see the same names posting, def less that 50, TGS is down to ~10 regular posters, everytime I look at it I see loads of usernames in the "now online" (ie ppl who've actually taken the time to register in that case) box most of whom never post. I don't get the mentality myself, but the figure/ratio quoted does not surprise me at all.

> x-post Kate has always made it clear about what the cooler is and isn't. There's definitely no hidden agenda.

Watercooler thread #1:

"You don't have to be from the UK, but it helps to be in this timezone.

So, erm... what did you get up to at the weekend? How's the weather where you are, bloody typical, eh? Any aches and pains to complain about? How are your local busses running? How does your garden grow?

And most importantly... is it time for our tea break yet?"

Hoo, this sure aint true of me. I only wish I was zingy enough to be part of Noise, or well-read enough for ILB. What I do find unworthy is bullying and trolling and downright vileness. It's not that the "wrong people" are here, it's that a small number are being dicks, which affects the whole.

xpost yeh, fair point. Maybe I shuold say "you'd expect more new members to arrive from a pool that size". Because it feels (and I might be wrong) that it's mostly regulars here with the odd newcomer.

I got my first hate blog comment today for bitching about Carrie Underwood.

"I find all of you boring/unworthy, I wish some interesting people would show up/my real friends would come back."
BYE LOSER!

Anyway, I say the new site gets reg-free trial if we get good spam protection.

I really don't understand the balkanization complaint. People can come out of their clan threads and post elsewhere. This seems to be what happens. Clan thread just = ilx within ilx. Don't be a lurker on the regional threads, then. Visit London/DC/Chicago.

Also Ed is OTM.

Because it feels (and I might be wrong) that it's mostly regulars here with the odd newcomer.

This is the way the boards have always felt to me, largely because I already knew a sizeable number of the original posters when it started. I call that feeling "being a regular on the board".

Mic@key
Louis J
Paul Edward Wagemann

The only on that list that doesn't post here anymore is the one WE KICKED OUT.

I'm still looking for a concrete example of how this behavior has affected someones willingness to post.

I do have the feeling that the tone of the place has been a bit harsh generally recently, I must admit. I think Mark C's original post is OTM.

Everyone individually.

xxx-post

That was my point (I think) and it's about the only rule I'd want a mod to enact, apart from the obvious spam/hate speech stuff. That's how I'd change the "self policing" bit, too.

I'm still looking for a concrete example of how this behavior has affected someones willingness to post.
Kinda tricky to prove a negative, innit.

xpost: I think the funny thing is that despite what people think, NB is one of the nicest places on ILX, as a rule.

Or talking about each other on at other interweb places.

xpost

It has affected the willingness of lots of people to contribute on threads which have become vicious and negative. It hasn't necessarily made people quit ILE forever but that's not the point. How many threads have died or lost their way because X has bitched out Y and then Z has jumped in on one side or other?

xpost

seriously. i probably post more on the dc thread than i do on the chicago thread these days.

LOGIC: 1
JJ: 0

-- jw (jon@wiz

I dunno man, there are def people out there who are cool/interesting in various ways, but who are not at all into harsh-style interweb dialog.

-- stet (bonald...), February 14th, 2007 5:48 PM. (stet)

"plzz sir send guess papers of class 9th urgently for test 5 september"

i'm against recycling zings tho

Hold on, John. In order to demonstrate that object A exists, don't you have to prove that object A is predicated of y(stopped posting because of bullying)?

Some people will learn
Some never do
But they'll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain
Yeah, they'll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain

http://homepage.mac.com/barthold.van.acker/realbasic/ohthehumanity.jpg

http://image.com.com/mp3/images/cover/200/dre500/e503/e503260f0qv.jpg

Windows
Minimum System Requirements

* 233 Mhz processor
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Mozilla Recommends

* 500 Mhz processor
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Minimum System Requirements

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Mozilla Recommends

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Minimum System Requirements

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Mozilla Recommends

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Other languages:

Hell ;)

i haven't resumed so much bcz it is after all TIME-DEVOURING and i kinda felt i wanted to get stuff done elsewhere a bit and make my fortune and that and then one day come back and you will all want to be my friends but i will DISDANE you haha

Oh wait, that was me. BUT I BET YOU DID IT TOO

So much for inviting YOU to the London FAP.

Mark: How about, at least from now until nuILE is ready, people DON'T react to any other popular forum demons with barbed comments, malicious witticisms, or just pointless blunt abuse, every single time they post.

Lex: lots of people seem unable to tell when they're crossing the line from banter into vicious bullying

How about some people not taking every criticism of things they say as bullying, rather just an observation that they aren't OTM and aren't getting showered in hugglez? Lex's comment cuts both ways: why can't some people see banter as banter and not as bullying? For example, people attack Louis personally. He encourages it! God knows how or why he does, but bless him for it. (I realise there is a middle ground where people are made to feel like shite, but some people can't tell black and white from shades of grey)

Johnney B: Oh, it's their opinions that you dislike? Attack their opinions to shit, really attack them, show the world how they are wrong. But don't attack them personally, or they'll probably ignore you.

See above about recipients of criticism who can't tell the difference. Then wonder why you're getting ignored when you are criticising a person and not their opinions (then wait for a thread on how opinions maketh the person).

Kate: I mean, I'll be perfectly honest about why I started mine own little Balkan - because I was being repeatedly and focusedly bullied on a variety of threads by very specific individual(s), which was killing those threads. A single thread to corral my chatter also had the result of the ability to ban bullies focused on a person.

Get one fucking blog. You had a whole board (which you locked) for this self-centred bollocks. You now shout at, or ignore, people who you don't agree with you on what is a public part of a public messageboard. Might I suggest if you didn't rise to whatever bait was being dangled at you that the threads you refer to might not have been killed in the first place?. Actually, why am I even bothering? You probably think I'm a bully though all I've actually done is try to point out to you exactly why you're the focus of some of this shit (look back on other FITES we've had on the watercooler and show me ONE that is bullying you as opposed to me disagreeing with your view on something, go on.)

Ronan: That's the same reason football threads are some of the most enjoyable, even though I'm no expert I find myself posting on them more because at least there is banter, and it's fairly constant (eg Liverpool always shit etc)

Also, when all other targets are gone, we can all still laugh at DJ Martian.

when did '133t' speak take off on ILE anyway?...I remember when Mark S and Starry would interact and I was like: WTF are they SAYING?

That's not 1337-speak, that's Molesworth as any fule no.

This whole thread is shite. You don't like the way ILE is, ignore it, react against it, drown it in a sea of kittens (actually, don't do that), leave, set up "I love old-ILE", whatever. But, fuck it, this meta "I want it like this" "no, I want it like that" shit is dull. NO-ONE CAN WIN! I can't believe I spent so long reading this. Make it what you want, find a way to deal with it, or fuck off. Me and Ned and teh_kit and stet and RJG and Kate and Sam and Dom and Nabisco and accentmonkey and Uncle Tom Cobleigh are all as much part of this as anyone else and no-one gets to define it any more (if they ever did to start with). The day I can't be arsed any more, I'll leave. The internet is fucking huge. I'll find somewhere else.

(there are many MANY other things people have said on this thread I disagree with. Most of them have been eloquently countered. I can't be arsed OTMing them, I just wanted to make a point, probably because I'm convinced from things she's said and done that I am one of these terrible people that's bullying Kate). Now I'm off to bang my head against a wall, and tomorrow I will continue to post to ILE like I did before.

xpost: In other, lighter-hearted, news, I saw Mark S' doppelganger outside my work today.

yrs,
flouncy, shallow, image-obsessed-and-i-bet-limp-wristed-and-lisping-too drama queen "
Dude.
Shut up.

Saying someone behaves like a little girl is SEXIST and perhaps agist(though that's entirely different, as teenagers are as a whole fucking stupid).
It is not homophobic at all.
As such it's either true or not.
Also, liking Paris Hilton in any way is comperable to saying "you know, cocaine is actually pretty fun! it's not nice to make fun of things I like!"
Paris Hilton is a cancer, a pseudo-human, a vampiric monstrosity, an airwave-borne social disease destroying human decency, one of the many reasons it's become 'cool' to be undereducated and bratty.

In any case, you're overreacting and/or trying to pull some 'gay card.'
My ex boyfriend (who is a joyless hobbity lawyer-wannabe, but decent human in some ways) would probably be more offended than I.
And I'm offended that you would use this to defend bad taste.
Grr.

The problems I have with the internet and what's spreading into ILE are:
Sardonic/sarcastic/snotty 'humour' that's often not even relevant.
Passive agressive baiting.
"Hey! I don't care that i'm wrong! I now decide to get everyone's sympathy and use it against you!" which is the behavior of...a 12 year old girl.
Refusing the benefit of the doubt/never getting confirmation of intent/not caring about intent.

These things bring out the worst in me. I dislike feeling that way.

gosh, the words of a truly level-headed, rational and functional human being! i think you should go see someone about this, i can feel the twitching from here

This might be a joke. Might be.

i'm pretty sure if you or someone else started a 'UK daytime idle chit-chat' thread that pretty much all of them would post on it. why wouldn't they?

omgggg huggle

(also I don't post from work!)

xpost