DREAMGIRLS

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OMG

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 02:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I know, right? I'm contemplating seeing it again tonight.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 02:48 (seventeen years ago) link

I may go again this weekend.

I am roffling at the reviews that say "EW, THEY SANG DIALOGUE AT EACH OTHER". I think people need to learn how to watch musicals.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 02:51 (seventeen years ago) link

ya i pretty much loved it (tho it was maybe a little long)

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 02:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Loved it, loved it, loved it.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 02:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Jennifer Hudson was amazing. Audience was in clapping fits when she was singing "And I'm Telling You."

― buns of steel magnolias (m bison), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:14 (seventeen years ago) link

This man is a douchebag.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Wow. I'm surprised we didn't agree on this movie. Usually we're on the same page.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Loved it!

Good Eddie Murphy where have you been all this time?

― debito (debito), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:23 (seventeen years ago) link

What didn't you like about it, Eric?

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Nothing really complicated. I just didn't like the songs, which is a pretty big roadblock when it comes to musicals.

The musical I'm waiting for someone to make: City of Angels.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Eddie Murphy, however, very very good in a surprisingly smallish role. Nearly as good as he was in Nutty Professor, imo.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:27 (seventeen years ago) link

He should get an Oscar, but he probably won't.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:29 (seventeen years ago) link

He def. deserves it more than the pervert in Little Children or Jack Nicholson. Maybe not as much as Mark Wahlberg, should he get nominated.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Ha, this movie/show basically panders to my tastes in musical theatre so that wasn't an obstacle to me. Also, JENNIFER HUDSON OMG

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:36 (seventeen years ago) link

There was also applause for JH in the theater I attended.

― debito (debito), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I like some musical theater, though I guess I should note that I spelled it e-r instead of r-e.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:50 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah they went NUTS for hudson when i saw it.

the songs didn't totally do it for me (esp compared to the stuff they're emulating) but the performances sold them.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:52 (seventeen years ago) link

There was also applause for JH in the theater I attended.

Yeah, mine too.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:52 (seventeen years ago) link

The movie is really about the Supremes, but in the wake of hard-hitting, warts-and-all musician biopics "Ray" and "Walk the Line," this approach doesn't cut it.

puke

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I do have a hard time separating "And I'm Telling You" from Chris Rock's White Person's Guide To Surviving The Apollo though.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:54 (seventeen years ago) link

my queeny boss liked it just fine, but he felt the Beyonce character was softened up too much compared to the stage version, making her less bitchy took a lot of the bite out of it. anybody familiar with both the stage & film versions feel the same way?

― bliss (blass), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:56 (seventeen years ago) link

she was kind of a non-character but i thought that was the point?

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 03:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, the Beyonce casting was right on.

― debito (debito), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 04:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't really like this much at all...Hudson was def. great, but apart from that, the film didn't impress me. The majority of the music was lackluster, and the film really seemed to lose all of its energy after "And I Am Telling You."
Overall, it was too much flash and not enough substance. I mean, I'm not opposed to over-the-top musical numbers, but when there's almost nothing else in the film, it gets monotonous.

― Tape Store (Tape Store), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 05:21 (seventeen years ago) link

And why are so many reviewers surprised that Hudson outshined Beyonce? C'mon! That's the way the film was written.

― Tape Store (Tape Store), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 05:26 (seventeen years ago) link

saw it again just now! there was clapping in the theater for Hudson during "And I'm Telling You" both times I saw it.

the songs are not great, but it is so exactly what I've always wanted from a movie musical in every other way that I can't complain. smartest editing-of-montages ever! and it's not the reason I like it, but the casting is so eerily brilliant on a meta level. Beyonce and Jennifer Hudson especially, but Eddie Murphy, too, a little. I can't even imagine how uncomfortable saying those lines must have been for Beyonce.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 06:15 (seventeen years ago) link

I've seen so many lackluster film adaptations of musicals with really brilliant songs (the entire Rodgers and Hart body of work comes to mind) that I think I'm willing to forgive brilliant filming of mediocre songs.

that dude who played Effie's brother is adorable.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 06:20 (seventeen years ago) link

oh, and regarding this:

I am roffling at the reviews that say "EW, THEY SANG DIALOGUE AT EACH OTHER"

I really dug the way the movie didn't naturalize this, the way movie musicals sometimes do, by providing a pretext for people to be talking-then-singing. the movie managed to retain that shock of unrealism of people singing dialogue at each other. and yeah, people who can't appreciate that have no business watching musicals.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 06:50 (seventeen years ago) link

that dude who played Effie's brother is adorable.

I kept waiting for him to turn gay in the movie, but when he stormed out of a recording session because Foxx was overlaying disco orchestration, I figured it wasn't going to happen.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 07:34 (seventeen years ago) link

roffle

― debito (debito), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 07:38 (seventeen years ago) link

The movie is really about the Supremes, but in the wake of hard-hitting, warts-and-all musician biopics "Ray" and "Walk the Line," this approach doesn't cut it.

I haven't seen either of these but my understanding is that these are by the numbers right? Much in the vein of that Germs trailer?

― jw (ex machina), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 13:11 (seventeen years ago) link

GERMS trailer?

― nathalie (stevienixed), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 13:13 (seventeen years ago) link

totally by the numbers

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 13:52 (seventeen years ago) link

well ray at least, i couldn't be bothered to see wtl

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 13:52 (seventeen years ago) link

i kind of got tired of music by the end of this film.

― maunders (maunders), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 13:57 (seventeen years ago) link

At least Ray featured Ray Charles' music, not Broadway versions of Charles songs.

So, does Hudson give a performance or is it just that one scene you all keep talking about?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:16 (seventeen years ago) link

GERMS trailer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrgfE8oANLQ

― jw (ex machina), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:29 (seventeen years ago) link

might rent this one day (I already own earplugs)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:37 (seventeen years ago) link

So, does Hudson give a performance or is it just that one scene you all keep talking about?

She definitely gives a performance. After I stopped freaking out about AI's Season 3 7th-place finisher getting this amazing role, she really became Effie for me (I should note it only took me 5 minutes to get over the AI thing). Her portrayal was a lot more nuanced than I was expecting; both she and Eddie Murphy were extraordinary but everyone else was excellent.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Is she the one who sang that totally showstopping number on AI, with the outrageously strong, long high note, and got voted off immediately afterwards?

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm glad Armond White's pan included a rant about what absolute shit the American Idol style of bellowing is.

http://www.nypress.com/19/51/film/ArmondWhite2.cfm

Heheh, I will definitely see Camp now.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh, the NY Press is now calling itself "New York's Premier Alternative Newspaper."

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Am I supposed to grovel in shame because I haven't seen one episode of American Idol?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:09 (seventeen years ago) link

You're supposed to feel smug.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:12 (seventeen years ago) link

or just old-fashioned (the standards thing)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

(and I don't mean Tin Pan Alley standards, not explicitly)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Is she the one who sang that totally showstopping number on AI, with the outrageously strong, long high note, and got voted off immediately afterwards?

Yes.

I continue to be amused by people who refer to a style of singing that is close to 40 years old as "the American Idol style". I also take issue with the implication that "Dreamgirls" somehow has a responsibility to be a factually-accurate biopic because it was inspired by The Supremes.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha that's what I thought! Paul Sci-Fi Soul still has that episode on his Tivo.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

I only demand songs that sound like a Supremes-inspired combo could perform them, not songs that sound like Broadway-inspired Supremes.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Um. Given where the musical came from, that's kind of... stupid?

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:24 (seventeen years ago) link

the implication that "Dreamgirls" somehow has a responsibility to be a factually-accurate biopic

I wonder who implied this.

So there's credit to be given if it's faithful to something that wasn't good in 1981 either?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I never cared for the source material.

The review you posted was pretty stupid though. Hasn't that critic seen The Umbrellas of Cherbourg?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Criticisms that boil down to "This isn't black enough" don't really fly with me so I apologize for any brusqueness. That is the undertone I get from the vast majority of complaints about the songs from this show; criticizing a Broadway musical for sounding like a Broadway musical doesn't make sense to me.

(xpost: Oh come on Morbs, that's what that Armond White review is complaining about, along with the token "I hate Eddie Murphy" aside. And yes, I think that there is some credit to be given for retaining so much of the flavor of the source material after translating from the stage to the screen; if they hadn't done that part well, everything else would have been moot and no one would care if the songs were Motown-worthy or not.)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:31 (seventeen years ago) link

(hahaha note to self: do not rely on Wikipedia. Pretend I didn't say the Eddie Murphy nonsense)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Armond is generally a solid Murphy fan (he raved about NP2: The Klumps).

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, two seconds of googling cleared up my Wiki-induced misconceptions. I meant to delete that anyway; stupid switching between windows messing up my editing.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

morbius you should watch more new movies instead of just posting links to armond white reviews of them

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link

I gen only link to stuff I wouldn't watch stoned.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

zing, right?

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:47 (seventeen years ago) link

goddamn shame that armond white is the single holdover from the old white/seitz/cheshire trio.

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:52 (seventeen years ago) link

A.W. is linkable and royally entertaining when he really hates something.

Someone on a gaygaygay board said at the premiere engagement here at the Ziegfeld, some guy was singing along to the whole damn thing in his seat til an usherette came over with her flashlight and said, "Girl, control yourself."

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

this movie sounds totally unwatchable (and I like musicals)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:54 (seventeen years ago) link

How do you mean? Should more of them be around or is that an "ANYONE BUT HIM" statement?

(xpost: roffle)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

ANYONE BUT HIM

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:57 (seventeen years ago) link

it's really eminently watchable even if some people don't find it listenable.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan why do you characterize the "American Idol"-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 18:58 (seventeen years ago) link

this movie sounds totally unwatchable (and I like musicals)

SEAL OF APPROVAL.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:00 (seventeen years ago) link

oh haha i was at one of the ziegfeld things and the crowd was like half gay, and half black, with quite a bit of crossover. before it started, i went to the bathroom and there was a huuuge line for the stalls, but the urinals were ok. who does coke/gloryhole action right before a movie?!?! (a non-porn movie)

i had never been to a movie before where people cheered during the movie, and hung around during the credits to give hearty appluase when a performer's name came up.

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:04 (seventeen years ago) link

well, let's hope it's the last time.

(didn't they charge $25 a ticket?!?)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:07 (seventeen years ago) link

well, let's hope it's the last time.

? I love it when people cheer at movies.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I am a big sap, though. that probably explains why I loved Dreamgirls so much, too.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:09 (seventeen years ago) link

I only heard of the musical two years ago. This makes me a Bad Fag, I suppose.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:09 (seventeen years ago) link

i still want to see this although it looks like I'll have to go alone.

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:10 (seventeen years ago) link

go with morbius!

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:11 (seventeen years ago) link

ppl applauding at movies are cheering their own fabulousness (which is no surprise in this instance). Still, the projectionist should come out for a bow.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Morbs needs to take me to see Inland Empire.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:13 (seventeen years ago) link

So this is now the gay film fan date thread?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:14 (seventeen years ago) link

We needed to replace the old Brokeback thread.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:15 (seventeen years ago) link

(didn't they charge $25 a ticket?!?)

oh i dunno, i got for free.

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:15 (seventeen years ago) link

SCENESTER

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:15 (seventeen years ago) link

I only heard of the musical two years ago. This makes me a Bad Fag, I suppose.

i still havent seen brokeback mountain!

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:15 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't like the idea of sexual orientation coming with requirements

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:16 (seventeen years ago) link

ppl applauding at movies are cheering their own fabulousness

I think they're just enjoying watching the movie with other people rather than alone.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Alfred, fly up for the Ann Miller triple feature in April (Reveille with Beverly included).

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually, I guess I've seen people cheer at Whats Love Got to Do With It, when Tina leaves Ike.

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I saw people cheer when Trinity died in the last Matrix movie, and it was not uncalled for.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:31 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the only times i've seen audiences cheer is when women give it back to some jerky male in a drama or, conversely, when a woman is slapped around in an action film. also: when leonardo dicaprio pistol-whipped matt damon in 'the departed'.

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

cheering/clapping is fun. it makes you feel like you're participating. sometimes it is a spontaneous expression of delight. jesus.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

OTM. it's nice when moviegoing transforms into a community experience.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Best fun with movies in theaters is either that full participation in a full theatre or a situation where it's just you and a couple of friends and nobody else (which has happened a couple of times over the years).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan why do you characterize the "American Idol"-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.

HI DERE ARETHA FRANKLIN + SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK + SOUNDS OF BLACKNESS + APPROX A GAZILLION ACTS FROM BEFORE THEN IN THE GOSPEL/BLUES ARENA

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:54 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah Effie seemed clearly Aretha Franklinesque to me.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 19:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Even if you don't buy the Aretha comparison, check Jennifer Holliday's performance at the 1982 Tonys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czftJYMoRv4

Kind of can't blame Mariah for a song interpretation that predates her by eight years!

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, a spontaneous expression of delight is OK, and doing at the end credits sure ain't that.

equating Aretha w/ American Idol = OH NOES

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:02 (seventeen years ago) link

"why is this aretha person dressing up like a white lady and not singing in the guttural, unmodulated tones of the authentic negro experience"

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:03 (seventeen years ago) link

spontaneous expressions of delight can happen whenever, that is what the word spontaneous means

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:07 (seventeen years ago) link

When Jennifer Hudson sang "This time... Effie's gonna WIN!", a woman in my theatre shouted "HOT DAMN!"

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:11 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, the first time I saw it, the theater was packed (Christmas Day) it was clear no one could quite contain themselves every time Hudson was onscreen. 75-year-old women were murmuring with delight. it was pretty awesome.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan why do you characterize the "American Idol"-style as being roughly 40 years old...? I thought we had Mariah Carey to blame for all that melismatic scale-running R&B stuff.

I say Stevie Wonder really popularized it, but I love him and think he's responsible for almost everything in pop.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:19 (seventeen years ago) link

That's probably fair; all the women wanted to sound like Aretha and all the men wanted to sound like Stevie and Marvin.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:21 (seventeen years ago) link

"This time... Effie's gonna WIN!"

Yeah, the (white) woman behind me was all "you give it to him" at that point.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Especially the Brits.

(xpost)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Man, I really want to see this movie.

Also, I don't really like polite applause as the credits roll, but spontaneous cheers during key moments in the movie can be fun. (There were a couple of the Children of Men screening I caught yesterday.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I hear that style more in Stevie than I do in Aretha or Marvin (neither of whom were prone to random runs up and down a scale in the middle of a phrase)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 20:24 (seventeen years ago) link

It's strange because Stevie made that sound so happy, whereas most singers who do it today sound emotionless.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:32 (seventeen years ago) link

they sound emotionless because they are emotionless - melisma signifies itself, or "I (think I) am singing well" or "I am expressing feelings completely alien to me" (though maybe I just don't know how hard it was for the mickey mouse club at a young age)

equating Aretha w/ American Idol = OH NOES

OTM. I even like Mariah. But 99% of melismatic stuff is total shite.

anyway, I'd be into seeing Eddie Murphy, but probably not enough to see this? Anything notable abt Jamie Foxx' performance?

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:36 (seventeen years ago) link

gabbneb OTM on showoffy melismatic bullshit. I'd compare it to those horrendous guitar solos that ruin so much '70s rock and nearly all metal for me.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:41 (seventeen years ago) link

it is kinda similar to the finger-tapping/endless soloing trope of electric guitarists, except that post 70s none of that shit was even remotely popular. whereas this has become the dominant vocal style of pop music.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Emotionless except when Stevie does it (which, admittedly, isn't anywhere near as often as people like J-Hud).

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I had no idea there was a NAME for it! That shit drives me crazy.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:43 (seventeen years ago) link

guitar solos might suck a lot too, but they don't necessarily pretend to be about anything

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

and I'll bet they're more frequently lyrical in their appointed role

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

Anything notable abt Jamie Foxx' performance?

No. He was far more charismatic in Miami Vice, if that says anything.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:48 (seventeen years ago) link

When did this thread turn into ilm?

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:49 (seventeen years ago) link

It's appropriate in the sense that I think the film's biggest shortcoming is its lame music.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:50 (seventeen years ago) link

No. He was far more charismatic in Miami Vice, if that says anything.

he was playing a cold dude! his was the only role that called for understatement and he was understated. I thought he was good.

I don't have an opinion on melisma in the abstract, but Jennifer Hudson did not sound emotionless when she employed it, for god's sake.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Melisma allows the pitchfork set something to get all Andy Rooney about.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:54 (seventeen years ago) link

in my day a singer just sang the song and didn't do all that ooowowoohaohyeeeahowhaohwha bullshit *grumble grumble*

― Shakey Old Man (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:55 (seventeen years ago) link

(waves fist at small children)

― Shakey Old Man (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:55 (seventeen years ago) link

You know, I hatehatehate the twang inherent in most country music but I have enough awareness of both the genre and myself to know that this is my issue, not the genre's. Understanding that internal bias has allowed me to work through it and enjoy some really great country artists (primarily Dolly Parton). Not only are you guys walling yourselves off from a lot of enjoyable stuff with this hardline attitude (which of course is your perogative), you are also making baldly ignorant, uninformed, flat-out stupid generalizations about the artists performing in this style (which is also your perogative and also subjective but maybe not quite the way you want to present yourselves to others).

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Did I mention how much I love this man's melisma?

http://www.solarnavigator.net/music/music_images/stevie_wonder_beads.jpg

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:58 (seventeen years ago) link

dood I love pop music and r&b I'm not taking a hardline attitude.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 21:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm pointing out the way your rhetoric is coming across to me; if you'd like to modify it so that you communicate your point to me in a clearer manner, go for it.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:01 (seventeen years ago) link

(altho I will confess that I flat-out hate 99.9% of the American Idol contestants and their associated stylistic characteristics that are usually ascribed as positives. Xtina et al also bore me horribly but more for reasons of content/subtext than anything else)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:03 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think anyone who dislikes melisma here could remotely be described as either the pitchfork set or needing an excuse to get all Andy Rooney

my taste should also make clear that little stands between me and stuff I might like and that I never let how my preferences might appear to others interfere with my critical instinct

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know American Idol very well but I appreciate its existence if only because of the added resonance of Hudson's casting in Dreamgirls. didn't she basically get kicked off of Idol for being too fat?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, I was being sarcastic with those "old man" posts - otherwise its not me calling the style "emotionless" or "bullshit", I was more interested in why you think the style is 40 years old than anything else. Cuz to my radio-listenin ears that style didn't come anywhere close to dominance until the post-"I Will Always Love You"-Whitney 90s (to bring it full circle to Dolly)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

x-post!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:08 (seventeen years ago) link

After seeing Dreamgirls, I can't say I disagree with this quote from the IndieWire critics' poll:

What does it say about our world that you can lose "American Idol" and win an Academy Award for doing basically the same thing? -- Matt Singer

For better or worse, the people who win American Idol typically don't respond as well to vocal pyrotechnics as they do to unique personalities. It's why Paris didn't win last time around and that doofus (who I'm told is likable) did.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:09 (seventeen years ago) link

the specific style Dan was talking about is melisma-as-employed-by-Hudson-in-Dreamgirls, which you announced you had no desire to see, right?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:09 (seventeen years ago) link

and it IS like guitar solo-ing insofar as it is an overtly self-conscious display of technique, range, skill, etc. Its got an inherently "show-off"-y kind of quality.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:10 (seventeen years ago) link

After seeing Dreamgirls, I can't say I disagree with this quote from the IndieWire critics' poll:

What does it say about our world that you can lose "American Idol" and win an Academy Award for doing basically the same thing? -- Matt Singer

-- Eric H. (ephende...), Today. (later

wtf does this post mean at all? she hasn't even won an oscar yet! how can you "agree" with that?

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:11 (seventeen years ago) link

"the specific style Dan was talking about is melisma-as-employed-by-Hudson-in-Dreamgirls, which you announced you had no desire to see, right?"

well there are a number of reasons I have no desire to see it: no one I like is involved, I'm overly familiar with the story and don't find it engaging as subject matter, I haven't liked the music to any Broadway musical post-1980 or so, no actual Supremes music is used, etc. None of these are really related to my feelings about melisma-as-style.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I guess I don't understand discussing melisma-as-style without discussing specific examples. I mean, opera singers employ melisma, and presumably aren't influenced by Whitney Houston overmuch. I don't get how you can be so authoritative about the sources of Hudson's singing style in the movie when you haven't seen it.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link

how can you "agree" with that?

"How do you sleep at night?!"

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link

just curious how you can agree with a hypothetical question about a hypothetical event! what are you agreeing with?

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:17 (seventeen years ago) link

sorry, i guess i mean a rhetorical question about a hypothetical event.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I agree that it's odd to consider that she lost one talent contest and may win a different, supposedly more prestigious talent contest. And that audience/peer response informs that split.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:19 (seventeen years ago) link

"I don't get how you can be so authoritative about the sources of Hudson's singing style in the movie when you haven't seen it."

dood Dan said it was 40 years old. I asked why. end of story. it isn't really that complicated.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:19 (seventeen years ago) link

well as they are two different types of contests, what's odd about that?

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:20 (seventeen years ago) link

unless the realization that american idol is about singing and the oscars are about acting has blown your mind!

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:21 (seventeen years ago) link

come on, the "what does it say about our world" is a little more handwringing, oh-no-American-Idol-performers-are-now-getting-respect! than just, "hmm, that's odd."

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:21 (seventeen years ago) link

It's odd that she's fat. That's what.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:22 (seventeen years ago) link

she likes to eat! what's odd about that? lots of people are fat!

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:22 (seventeen years ago) link

come on, the "what does it say about our world" is a little more handwringing, oh-no-American-Idol-performers-are-now-getting-respect! than just, "hmm, that's odd."

Critics in overstating the importance of things like, oh, Dreamgirls shockah!

unless the realization that american idol is about singing and the oscars are about acting has blown your mind!

See, the sad thing about this whole thing is that Jennifer Hudson ... is a terrible actress.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:23 (seventeen years ago) link

but srsly, do you think if she DOES win the oscar it'll be BECAUSE she's fat??

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:23 (seventeen years ago) link

(I know you're joking, Eric, but it was kind of amazing to be watching a nonskinny woman taken seriously as a subject onscreen.)

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:23 (seventeen years ago) link

lots of people are fat!

I'm not. I like to eat.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:23 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm only skimming here, but i think some people need some punches in the face

― giboyojimbo (gbx), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

honestly, though, i refuse to continue this weird double hypothetical non-argument until jennifer hudson actually wins the oscar. or is at least nominated for cryin' out loud.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

(I know you're joking, Eric, but it was kind of amazing to be watching a nonskinny woman taken seriously as a subject onscreen.)

You don't need to tell me twice. You're talking to the only person in the world whose favorite performance in Magnolia was Cleo King's.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

honestly, though, i refuse to continue this weird double hypothetical non-argument until jennifer hudson actually wins the oscar.

Yes, and I should probably stop talking about a movie that I basically have no strong feelings about.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Jennifer Hudson ... is a terrible actress.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! she was awesome! I'm not saying she'd be good in anything, but she was good in this! I started sobbing the second she shot Jamie Foxx a loving look during "I love you, I do"! okay, maybe that was an overshare.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I know I have odd standards of what constitutes good acting (I think the acting in John Waters movies trumps almost anything that wins Oscars), but I thought Hudson was extremely vacuous when she wasn't singing. She and Beyonce should've switched roles so the latter wouldn't have to hold back on her vocal skills until that big third-act number.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:28 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought Hudson was extremely vacuous when she wasn't singing.

she was almost always singing, though. anyway, I'm officially taking a deep breath and stepping away from this thread. but seriously, people who said you have no interest in seeing the movie, I'd reconsider. it's good.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

It's good...if you're not Smuggy McCrazyface.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Can we talk more about people applauding in movies? One of my favorite audience-applause moments was (I think on Xmas Day) when Robert DeNiro shot Bridget Fonda in Jackie Brown.

― has been plagued with problems since its erection in 1978 (nklshs), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:34 (seventeen years ago) link

i remember that as being really shocking at the time!

― giboyojimbo (gbx), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Now that's a Nativity scene.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:37 (seventeen years ago) link

It was a collective acknowledgment of how much we despise stoner girlfriends.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

I probably clapped inside a little when Jackie put a gun to Sam Jackson's crotch and told him "take your hands from 'round my throat, nigga."

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:39 (seventeen years ago) link

in that case i want robert de niro to show up in every kevin smith movie and shoot jay

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:40 (seventeen years ago) link

jackie brown clapping - uhhh

if you don't understand the difference between melisma in pop music and opera...? one is the vocal equivalent of the bent-note, blues-based 'runs' of a guitar solo - a showy improvisation intended to suggest the singer such that heightened emotion compels the singer to vary from the main melody (never mind that such variations appear to be de rigeur to be on tv) - the other is the written melody itself, without note-bending. the latter can be showy, sure, but what it's showing is the composer before the singer, and showiness is not always or even often of a piece with emotion - the singer has to rely more on non-improvisational, non-melodic devices for that purpose. but you weren't suggesting that jennifer hudson get on a stage with anna netrebko, right?

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:43 (seventeen years ago) link

er, suggest ~~the singer such~~ that heightened

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:44 (seventeen years ago) link

no, I was suggesting that making fun of emotionless melismatic performances by "former mickey mouse club members" or whatever is irrelevant to Hudson's performance in Dreamgirls. I think it is sort of silly to dismiss melisma out of hand.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

or maybe I should sub in Deborah Voigt so no one thinks it's a fat joke

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't dismiss melisma out of hand, as I made clear above. It's just very rare that I think it's any good.

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:46 (seventeen years ago) link

so if you want to convince me that Hudson's good, you're probably going to have to be someone who also usually doesn't like it

― nuneb (nuneb), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Ciara should've played Effie.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:48 (seventeen years ago) link

endless soloing trope of electric guitarists, except that post 70s none of that shit was even remotely popular

...outside of the noise board.

Somebody needs to find an mp3 of Forbidden Broadway's parody "And I Am Telling You, I'm Not Singing" ("I'm screaming, I'm screa-ea-ea-eaming. . .")

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:49 (seventeen years ago) link

in that case i want robert de niro to show up in every kevin smith movie and shoot jay

I will sacrifice a thousand fanboys to let this be true. Or just one Harry Knowles.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 22:51 (seventeen years ago) link

More so than the AI/Oscar comparison, which I agree is specious (and built on the faulty assumption that Oscars are better than AI), I do think it's neat that the Jackass sequel is a far gayer movie than Dreamgirls.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

So basically you don't understand or know the genesis behind operatic melisma. (Many of those runs weren't in the original scores, especially cadenzas in bel canto singing; they were embellishments the singers added later to show how awesome they were and the best ones have, over time, become codified as "the way to sing it". See also baroque ornamentation.)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Tuesday, 2 January 2007 23:57 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, I'm aware of that (and conceded that showiness had something to do with the melody) but is that true of even 10% of the time when someone in an aria sings a syllable over several notes? and how does whether the codified melody was written by the composer or the singer 250+ years ago change the point that an opera singer today does not improvise melodically to express emotion?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Except, of course, that THEY DO, especially when singing bel canto or when ornamenting baroque pieces.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:02 (seventeen years ago) link

and if anyone actually improvises cadenzas today, as opposed to singing traditional ones, that's well outside the norm of operatic singing, no?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

in a staged opera as opposed to a recital?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I just did La clemenza di Tito this fall fully-staged and the three main principals all had at least one aria where they did their own ornamentation as opposed to the "standard" version.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

TOLD.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I just did La clemenza di Tito this fall fully-staged and the three main principals all had at least one aria where they did their own ornamentation as opposed to the "standard" version.

this says nothing about how common it is to do so. would any major company do so in more than an aria or two in a tiny fraction of the operas it does?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(These were all Met Opera vets/up-and-comers so it's not like it's some bizarro only-in-Boston thing.)

xpost: Would you please stop trying to act like this is UNHEARD OF? It isn't. When you get paid to perform this type of stuff, I will start listening to you again.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:13 (seventeen years ago) link

and is encouraging improvisation in cadenzas something that's always been in favor or does it have something to do with the general interest from jazz and new music in inserting improvision, like the choose-your-own-note thing in choral singing?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:14 (seventeen years ago) link

dood even I wouldn't argue with Dan about this stuff

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not saying it's unheard of, I'm saying it's not what most opera singing is about. It is what most American Idol-singing is about.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:15 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe it was la clemenza di Tito Jackson?

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:16 (seventeen years ago) link

FFS, I've already given you scope (baroque/bel canto and practical example/application (for another, some of these same people were in a productioin of Handel's "Orlando" where, for a climactic all-female, trio, they wrote their own a capella candenza that really tore down the roof, plus I have the example of my wife, who is working in the field and has several different variants of ornamentation that she does for all of her baroque arias, some of which are tried-and-true standards, some of which are things she came up with along with her coaches, and some of which are a mix of the two. She does this for every baroque aria she has. A good "Messiah" performance will feature crazty ornamentation on all of the repeats of the main themes in the arias (I have another friend who does "Rejoice greatly" where the second time around every run is made up of 32nd notes instead of 16th notes; she is also based in New York so again: not just Boston)).

I do actually know what I'm talking about sometimes, as shocking as that may seem. And the point you are continually getting hung up on is a natural result of the evolution of a musical form moreso than anything else; let's see what pop R&B is like 200 years from now and see how codified things are. Hell, people ALREADY try to mimic Mariah, Whitney, Aretha, Diana, Minnie, Jennifer Holliday, et al note-for-note and we're only looking (in some cases) a remove of less than a year!

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:20 (seventeen years ago) link

: D

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Dan's righteous badassness on these points always makes me happy. And reminds me of what I need to learn still!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:27 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah dude, I know you know what you're talking about and a lot more than I do; I'm trying to test my impression against your knowledge at the same time as I think you might not be entirely objective on your favorite stuff (I'm not either).

also, at least 2 of the 6 on your list are operatically-trained, no? (I also forgive mariah her postmod melisma cuz she's so 'free-spirited')

dood even I wouldn't argue with Dan about this stuff

yeah dood, but I don't think you saw Parsifal in the womb or sang the Verdi Requiem in high school either

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:28 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't understand what mileage you're getting out of the supposed distinction between operatic melisma and pop melisma anyway, gabbneb.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:30 (seventeen years ago) link

the point I was making is that even if Dan is right that operatic improvisation is not unheard of, most melisma in opera is not improvisational and does not signify the way that pop melisma does

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:32 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, but even if that's true, how is it relevant?

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

how was your point that 'opera singers employ melisma' relevant?

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I brought it up because I thought discussing melisma in the abstract was sort of silly, and that opera seemed different enough to me from what Hudson does to prove that point! (I appear to be wrong about that; Dan's posts have been really informative.) because I understood the thread to be taking a god, I hate melisma turn. which still seems silly to me!

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i'll try to restate this. many people hate melisma in pop music because it strikes them as essentially fake emotion. melisma in pop signifies emotion, frequently. in opera, it does so far less frequently (and even when it does, the singer is explicitly playing a role and has no claim on personal authenticity). therefore, the existence of melisma in opera, assuming you even like it (which i do), may be irrelevant to why you dislike it in pop music, even leaving apart issues of technical ability and melodic composition quality.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 00:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I still disagree with this, largely because the singer in pop music is playing a role just as much as the singer in opera is regardless of the autobigraphical content of the pop singer's material, but that's definitely a more defensible statement of your point.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 01:11 (seventeen years ago) link

You know, this isn't the first Dreamgirls thread that's basically abandoned talking about the film.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:38 (seventeen years ago) link

all this agita reminds me of the CRASH thread of last year - guess that bodes well for Dreamgirls' oscar chances

― bill sackter (bill sackter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 05:54 (seventeen years ago) link

AAAAAAAHHHHHH II-AHHHHHHHHHHHH
WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOUUUUUUU-OOH-OOOOH-OH-AOUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
ALWAYS LOVE
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

"Emotion" or "showing off"? Only her doctor knows for sure.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

so is this movie at least edited less frantically than Chicago? cuz I couldn't sit through shit like that again.

Sonofagun, Sparkle IS out on disc this week. I'll watch that.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_4932129

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I never saw Chicago, but I think Dreamgirls is edited perfectly.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, Is there a cut every 1.5 seconds?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

no. I don't really think it could be characterized as frenetic.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

There are some gratuitous spinning shots during some of the performances and I missed the "One Night Only (Disco)" section due to an urgent bathroom break so I don't know what happened there. None of what I saw struck me as haphazard or even moderately difficult to follow.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

"One Night Only (Disco)": the dancing is sort of frenetic, but understandably so. the editing is not.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

how long is it?

arrgh, there is no way I'm going to get the boy to go see this with me. I tried to convince him eddie murphy was worth it but no go.

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

two-and-a-half-hours-ish.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

it's way better directed than chicago.

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

It's Moulin Rouge that's cut frenetically, not Chicago. (I ended up coming around on Rouge, eventually. I think it's the only generally good movie musical of the '00s.)

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

CRAZY TALK! I could shit a better movie than Moulin Rouge. but yeah, I was picturing Moulin Rouge as the point of comparison when considering whether or not Dreamgirls was cut frenetically.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link

I think it's the only generally good movie musical of the '00s.

I admit I haven't seen Not on the Lips, yet.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

When did Hedwig come out?

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:51 (seventeen years ago) link

IM A DRAMGIRL

― chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

ew Hedwig was terrible.

best 90s musical = Velvet Goldmine!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link

the best musical of the '90s was 'south park: bigger, longer, and uncut'

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I was gonna say!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh. goddamnit gear, the "ugh" is not for you :(

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link

"Though you die, LA RESISTANCE LIVES ONNNNNNNNN..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe I actually sat through Velvet Goldmine. I was trying to keep mum on this thread but that, sir, was a step too far.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

hmmm yeah, the South Park musical is probably the best thing Stone/Parker have ever done

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:57 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost!

Ally doesnt agree with me shockah

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 18:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Frenetic isn't the word for Moulin Rouge!'s cutting; pathological perhaps.

Velvet Goldmine's big advantage was that (non-Bowie) glam music wasn't that good to begin with, so the pastiches met the standard.

How does Eddie Murphy's perf score as an audition for Spike Lee's announced James Brown film? He's too old to play him in his 20s but that may not stop it.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:14 (seventeen years ago) link

i loved both Hedwig and the SP movie. I spoiled the latter by getting the soundtrack at the college radio station earlier in the week, and listening to it over and over and playing half of it on my show right before the premiere.

I remember sitting in the theater thinking, "wait, you guys need to not laugh so loud during the songs, you're missing half the jokes!"

― kingfish in absentia (kingfish), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:19 (seventeen years ago) link

(x-post) Pretty good, actually.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons, the pathological cutting being only one of them.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm still a little bitter that my sister didn't let me walk out of Moulin Rouge.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha when someone put on the DVD of it, I figured I'd give it another go. The DVD punked out during the death scene and I was never happier to see a DVD punk out.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is basically an unwatchable movie for many, many reasons

I could not agree more.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:29 (seventeen years ago) link

C'mon, it's not literally unwatchable because you really can't anticipate what will come flying into the kitchen sink next. (Besides someone else who can't sing.)

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Moulin Rouge is not boring. Chicago and Dreamgirls, for the most part, are.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, getting your eyes gouged out isn't boring either, presumably.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:38 (seventeen years ago) link

i'd like to see a musical of 'hostel', speaking of that.

― bohren un der club of gear (bohren un der club of gear), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, stimulation isn't everything, so Everyone Says I Love You tops MR!

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:40 (seventeen years ago) link

i'd like to see a musical of 'hostel', speaking of that.

I agree.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link

stimulation isn't everything

Shouldn't musicals be expected to be somewhat sensualist, tho?

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I suppose, but echo eye-gouging comment.

did you like the songs in Phantom of the Paradise, btw?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:45 (seventeen years ago) link

The first one to say Grease gets his eyes gouged.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:45 (seventeen years ago) link

What are you saving for Grease 2?

I just got an email ad for the Evil Dead off-B'way musical which leads with a granny testifying how delightful it was to get spattered with stage blood.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:48 (seventeen years ago) link

did you like the songs in Phantom of the Paradise, btw?

Yes.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe I actually sat through Velvet Goldmine. I was trying to keep mum on this thread but that, sir, was a step too far.

I thought it was for slash fiction fanatics only.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:52 (seventeen years ago) link

haha I liked pretty much everything in Phantom of the Paradise BUT the songs

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:55 (seventeen years ago) link

(which is weird considering Paul Williams' otherwise decent songwriting track record)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought it was for slash fiction fanatics only.

Frightening thought.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 19:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, none of those androgyne stars did any actual manfucking.

"Movie musicals" really don't have anything but a noveltylike place in the culture anymore, whereas they (and Broadway) used to be the dominant source of pop music. So you get neither fish-nor-fowl contraptions like the recent wave of music-video approaches to '70s/'80s material, trying to be hip and retro.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:02 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe so, but back when they had a more stable place in the culture, a lot of shitty movie musicals were made. I think there's still potential for good movie musicals.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:05 (seventeen years ago) link

well, anytime a lot of anything is made a lot is shit.

did the Outkast film make any impression here? was it the only big-budget original-to-the-screen musical this year?

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:15 (seventeen years ago) link

sorry to repeat myself, but http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/coverv/26/171826.jpg

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:15 (seventeen years ago) link

is Mo' Better Blues really a musical in any conventional sense...? (I honestly don't remember, haven't seen it since it came out).

I don't think anyone saw the Outkast movie, including me.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:18 (seventeen years ago) link

is Velvet Goldmine? we don't make musicals in the conventional sense anymore except as sort of postmodern period pieces. it's suffused with jazz, has some singing/scatting/quasi-rapping, and borrows a lot of the formal tropes of musicals.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:23 (seventeen years ago) link

ebert said, "not a great film, but ... an interesting one, which is almost as rare."

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:25 (seventeen years ago) link

well Velvet Goldmine is a musical in the sense that there are extended musical sequences wherein the main characters sing - I don't remember anything like that really happening in MBB.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:27 (seventeen years ago) link

well, at this point, i'm willing to call any movie that makes heavy use of music in the fore or middle-ground a musical of sorts. it's not meet me in st louis, but no one makes meet me in st louis anymore. does MBB involve dialogue spontaneously turning into song? no. but it does have at least three musical numbers involving the leads, one of which is sung, and one of which is quasi-rapped.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:34 (seventeen years ago) link

"not a great film, but ... an interesting one, which is almost as rare."

The same can be said for many Ebert reviews. I'll miss him almost as much as I miss the late Spielberg.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think anyone saw the Outkast movie, including me.

I did. I liked it although it felt more like one long video than a movie.

― Ms Misery (MsMisery), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 20:42 (seventeen years ago) link

I second the notion to eye-gouge anyone related to the movie musical Grease.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, I don't think either Velvet Goldmine or Mo' Better Blues should be classed as musicals--I mean, you are now treading the line in which anything that depicts a character singing is a musical, which would make Fire Walk With Me a musical if you really want to be technical. It seems to be an abuse of the term. Is Labrynth a musical? David Bowie sings that UTTERLY RIDICULOUS SONG WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT in it!

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:32 (seventeen years ago) link

You remind me of the babe...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:33 (seventeen years ago) link

does Fire Walk With Me have several musical numbers and nearly continuous music in the fore or middle ground? if so, I'm willing to deem it a musical.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:34 (seventeen years ago) link

(somehow I doubt it has the structure of a musical, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised if it does?)

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:35 (seventeen years ago) link

The entirety of Twin Peaks has repeated musical numbers by Julie Cruise and nearly continuous music, have you not seen then?

I think your definition is terrible, to be very honest with you.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:36 (seventeen years ago) link

I've never seen Fire Walk With Me

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Is Labrynth a musical? David Bowie sings that UTTERLY RIDICULOUS SONG WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT in it!

More movies should have songs about kicking babies in them.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:38 (seventeen years ago) link

well, at this point, i'm willing to call any movie that makes heavy use of music in the fore or middle-ground a musical of sorts.

I'm not. By that logic, the movie "High Fidelity" and "Magnolia" are also musicals.

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:38 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm stickin to my definition.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:40 (seventeen years ago) link

'The musical film is a film genre in which several songs sung by the characters are interwoven into the narrative. The songs are used to advance the plot or develop the film's characters. A subgenre of the musical film is the musical comedy, which includes a strong element of humour as well as the usual music, dancing and storyline.'

Though at the top of the page it does say 'The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed.'

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:42 (seventeen years ago) link

If characters sing/dance instead of crying or killing somebody it's a musical.

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:42 (seventeen years ago) link

as opposed to a KILLSICAL

― a mediocre black-and-white cookie in a cellophane wrapper (hanks1ockli), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Little Shop of Horrors?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Silence of the Lambs musical to thread.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:45 (seventeen years ago) link

In West Side Story people get to sing, dance, AND kill, lucky PRs :D

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:45 (seventeen years ago) link

instead of/in addition to

― Dr M (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

West Side Story=apotheosis of the musical form

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't forget "Sweeny Todd" and "Assassins"!

(xpost: oh poo, you're no fun sometimes)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Assassins=love...apparently I like my musicals bloody.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

"sometimes"!!

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

(also total agreement with "West Side Story" as the bomb-diggety musical; see also "Candide")

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:47 (seventeen years ago) link

come to think of it, I never really fully made my point yesterday about melisma in opera. regardless of whether the origin of e.g. bel canto and baroque cadenzas is with the composer, and regardless of how common embellishment and elaboration are today, and regardless of questions of authenticity/rockism, my fundamental point was that melisma - the repetition of a single syllable over several notes - is commonplace in all operatic composition in a way that is rather alien to contemporary pop songwriting. thus, the existence of melisma in opera is irrelevant here, unless you want to use "melisma" to refer only to operatic melisma that you deem analogous to the melismatic vocal style in contemporary pop. at which point, you get into all the other issues above.

By that logic, the movie "High Fidelity" and "Magnolia" are also musicals.

i've never seen high fidelity, but i just saw magnolia for the first time, and don't remember any music except for the sudden/random breaks into song that are (?) shakey's signifiers for musical-ness. i'm not sure what i'd call that, myself.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, pretty much WSS is the apotheosis. Does anything else have as pivotal a place?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:49 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.musical.it/bottega/images/Steve_Martin_dentista.JPG

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:49 (seventeen years ago) link

That's not meant to be a reply to Ned.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I was very disappointed to learn of (and see) the non-musical Little Shop of Horrors.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Assassins=love...apparently I like my musicals bloody.

Me too.

― The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (Leon), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:50 (seventeen years ago) link

So how many of us had dentists who knew the song Ally posted the still from and loved singing it at times? (I had two.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:50 (seventeen years ago) link

All stage plays should be bloody. Shakespeare started off with things like Titus Andronicus and just got more restrained about it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Jesus Ned, wtf kind of dentists did you have?

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Slightly disturbing ones. This was the eighties and I had no immediate say over what dentists I chose. (Thankfully they didn't do this ALL the time.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:54 (seventeen years ago) link

These were military doctors, weren't they.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Gabbneb, have you ever seen the sheet music for pop music? Unless it's aimed at pre-teens, they write all that shit out; the wierd off-rhythms, the blue notes, the melismatic sections... it's all pretty much there (which is another reason why so many covers follow the recorded originals as closely as they do).

(xpost: The rest of the time they sang "D'Ya Think I'm Sexy" to him.)

― Jesus Dan (dan perry), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:56 (seventeen years ago) link

These were military doctors, weren't they.

Strangely enough, no. But in military towns, so...

The rest of the time they sang "D'Ya Think I'm Sexy" to him.

The reasons for not thinking much about my youth grow ever clearer to me.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Ugh what a horrible image I am getting in my head.

― Allyzay heard you got beat up in a club. (Allyzay Eisenschefter), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:58 (seventeen years ago) link

not in a very long time, but i'm not sure i understand the point. most pop music (pop being a very broad term here) has little to none of the sort of melisma employed regularly in opera, no? stuff sung in the melismatic vocal style, even if the music is written out, is just a fraction of the pop music out there.

― nuneb (nuneb), Wednesday, 3 January 2007 21:59 (seventeen years ago) link

one month passes...

This thread was missed.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 17 February 2007 08:34 (seventeen years ago) link

four years pass...

fyi the original soundtrack is unbelievably badass, in case you didn't know

― OH NOES, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 15:32 (twelve years ago) link

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