Wine markup in restaurants

It's worth carrying the prices of a few commonly sold wines to use as a yardstick to see how much you are being fleeced. In the UK, Chateau Musar works well because it is fairly common on winelists and it's easy to find as most restaurants don;t ever carry more than one Lebanese wine. It's £12-16 in the shops so anywhere where it comes in for less than £35 in being sensible with the wine markup.

(PS was the Nero at ambient temperture or chilled, I'm of the opinion that it is a good red wine for chilling)

Lot's of places in the UK have these on as a cheap Italian and it's a bad sign when they come out at ambient temperature. I've never seen them served at ambient temp in Italy. As you can guess I'm quite a fan.

Now the markup on soft drinks in pubs, that's the real bastard.

200% seems reasnoble for a place that keeps an interesting and diverse cellar and knows how to treat the wine. One big problem is it's often difficult to divine this in advance as most restaurants don't publish their wine lists either outside or on their website.

For smaller establishments with smaller lest varied cellars 150% seems reasnoble.

Does the UK have the concept of the "designated driver"? US bars often give free soft drinks to a group's DD.

As for restaurants marking up the price of a bottle of wine to 2.5 or 3 times the retail price, to add insult to injury the restaurant probably bought the wine at wholesale rates that are lower than retail.

there is a restaurant in philadelphia famous for doing this. they would never charge more than 10 dollars over retail.

Still, most places charge about $2 for a shitty little glass of Coke which is about the equivalent of half of a can.

Ed, have found gumbo spices. You want?

One thing that disappoints me is that beer does not have the status as a drink to have with meals. One of the pleasures of travelling in Belgium is the range of beer and how acceptable it is to drink beer with an upscale meal. Of course there is a widely available diversity of beers and a culture of the craft of serving them.

Ally, next time you come to London we should eat in St John, even if only in the Bar. It is a worthwhile and rewarding experience.

I'm trying to think of places where they really push beer with upscale meals and there aren't many that I can think of. There are a few giant beer houses in DC that serve thousands of different types of beer, but the food, while good, is burgers and fries. Some ethnic restaurants will offer a few beers from the country of origin but really they like to push cocktails and wines and sakes (maybe because markup is better? I've never thought much about beer markup in restaurants or bars, because they don't seem unreasonably priced).

I actually almost just went onto Orbitz, btw, to price out a trip to London for this St John. I have thought a bit better of my initial idea to make the trip "next month" :)

I have to say though - at certain price points the mark-up on food is just as scandalous as that on booze, but I can't really expand on that what with it being my job etc.....

Ex-post with Ed - too true, it's rare to get a decent beer list at a full-on restaurant... I think SJ just do Adnams iirc

There's nothing like getting a job in the food industry to make you really lose your appetite for eating out.

OK SRSLY: Waht do u look like in a Sandbox?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/84/251576929_f193a6ffd2.jpg?v=0

-- TOM. BOT. (tombo...), December 24th, 2006.

I think my post makes it pretty clear that I'm not saying "Duh, whoa, there's a markup!" but "Is this a normal amount of markup?" Which is a perfectly reasonable question, especially since, sorry, I don't dine regularly in restaurants where the cheapest glass is $10. But I've come to expect that sort of obnoxious, snotty response from both you and Ally. Maybe it's something you've honed and refined together.

Do you have any theories on driving? Successful encounters surely take as much sensitivity/judgement, skill and sense of timing as driving.

Actually, it woud be an impediment to me. For some reason wine really knocks me out into oblivion without going through a happy pleasantly drunk stage; I don't know if its possible to lack the enzymes to process it?

The markup in your first post is quite a lot even by most standards but considering a 200%-300% markup on the bottle, then the extra markup they put on you for a single glass...it's a bad idea to just order one glass of wine. I mean they markup single glasses for a reason, which is that you might be the only person for weeks who will order a single glass of this wine. This never happens but it is the theory. You're cutting into their inventory without any guarantee that the bottle will get finished.

Quite a few places have started offering half bottles, consider that in the future.

xpost suzy, Bob and Ed are all OTM depending on who you are. I mean there are tons of people who can drink a whole bottle of wine and be mostly or entirely fine. There are people who are actually allergic to wine, and get blitzy on a glass. That's just common sense; think about a liquor like tequila where half everyone who drinks it turns into mild-mannered Bruce Banner, but the other half Hulk-smashes everything in sight.

A lot of Spanish places offer the half bottle, not even just "upscale" ones, so that's one place to keep an eye out for it. There never seems to be as big a percentage markup on the half bottles as there are on the regular size, as well, oddly.

US bars often give free alcoholic drinks to a group's DD, if she's a she. This is what a DD-bearing friend of mine once termed the "double-D discount".

On topic: I didn't see anyone mention above what an injustice "corkage" fees are. It does seem like a terribly silly concept.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/bobbysixer/happyhour2.jpg

No hard feelings - it was a late night stupor post.

My most favorite kinds of places = good food and atmosphere, excellent wine list, and one-night-per-week 50% off all bottles of wine. Hello Dulce's in Madrona - see you on Wednesdays :)

Bottle usually = $2-$5 less than glass price times 4. Often the bottle price = exactly 4 times the bottle price.

Bottle price is usually 2 times retail. This as been the case at all 5 restaurants I've worked at, and most others I've visited.

Bin 36 in Chicago offers most of their glass pours by the bottle for about only a few bucks more than liquor store prices. Cuvee le Bec by Beckman Vineyards is an amazing blend of Rhone varietals that they sell for $20, while at the liquor store it is $15.

Also, give it some thought and then explain why corkage fees are an "injustice" and a "terribly silly concept" at a non-BYOB establishment. The restaurant is allowing you to bring sand to their beach. They are pouring, refilling and washing he glasses and losing sales from their own list.

The same principle applies for folks who wish to bring their own desserts or kosher and restricted diets foods--a set fee sligthly offsets the profits the restaurant loses from having these guests receive service, and take space that could go to a paying guest.

a 1986 St. Emilion
several 2000 Pomerols
'Creme de Tete' Sauternes (no idea the year)

actually that's all I can remember. they were all 'free'.

I had dinner out in Bordeaux at a fairly pricey restaurant (entrees were 18-25 euro, which is a lot for Bordeaux) and no bottle was more than 30 euro. i imagine all of them would be at least 60 bucks in an American joint.

I had some pretty bad verres and demis in Paris, but I was usually ordering the cheapest or house stuff, so I suppose it serves me right.

I like half-bottles in restaurants if only to pair wine to different starters/main courses.

Also, give it some thought and then explain why corkage fees are an "injustice" and a "terribly silly concept" at a non-BYOB establishment. The restaurant is allowing you to bring sand to their beach. They are pouring, refilling and washing he glasses and losing sales from their own list.

OTM. Also, if you really don't like their wine, why are you dining there? The only times I ever bring wine somehwere is when it's really remarkably good and I'm certain it will go well with something on the menu. If you've been consistently nice to the server and the manager in the past, and if you offer them a taste, I find, half of the time, that they'll waive corkage, especially if you order enough for them to make a decent profit/tip.

agreed. See also: Wine-for-dummies bro-in-law who insists every wine smell of "sweaty saddles". I've had quite enough of that, thanks.

Another fave place: Lotus of Siam in Las Vegas brought out sips of 7 different German whites from Kabinett to Auslese so we could see how a sweeter white really broadened a spicy thai dish. We really liked a Spatlese (Josef Leitz Rudesheimer Magdalenenkreuz).

I've heard tales of corkage horror: diners bringing their $5 Yellowtail, etc. Which I think they should be pitched out on their ear for.

My comment was primarily intended to bring the concept of "corkage" into the debate. That said, I never incur corkage fees myself, because simply bringing wine to an establishment at which I intend to dine is 1. evidence of foolish wine-nerditude, 2. an insult to the restaurant, and 3. evidence of a weak constitution: A wine good enough to be taken to a restaurant surely ought be consumed prior to dining. If the diners in question cannot handle another bottle, then perhaps the alcohol ought be skipped and the establishment's wrath abided.

A dream dinner though - two or three extra-special bottles and a special occasion AND a great relationship with a favorite place to eat. I'd call them, describe the wines and let them craft a wonderful meal to go with. Mmmmm sigh.

Why?

I don't know, I have a lot of rules about going out dining, perhaps it is because I'm a good cook and am just not a person to dine out by myself in a nice, fancy restaurant if I'm on a trip or working late, so 90% of the reason to go to a restaurant is to sample what the restaurant has, not what I can do up myself at my house.

#1 - I think it quite likely that one could find themselves in a position to have a bottle much older (and more personal) than anything offered by many very good restaurants. For many people, it might be more appropriate to open this at home with a homemade meal, but not everyone is a cook and even if you have the skill and inclination you're probably not going to match an excellent, special occasion restaurant in quality (ignoring personality).

#2 - I might be more interested in not being rude to my dining companion than in not being rude to the restaurant.

#3 - I have yet to go to wine country - this will change soon, hopefully - but it does seem that California is particularly open about corkage, and in some of your midrange wine country restaurants it seems far from unheard of.

Wine appreciation is a true art form. Here are some tips to help you become an aficionado.

Enlarge Image Wine-Appreciation Tips

Wine taster

* Most wine experts frown upon serving a peignoir with white meat. This is primarily because a peignoir is a type of lingerie.
* In Europe, wines are named according to the region from which they come. Among the most popular are wines from the Bordeaux region of France and the Night Train region of Italy.
* When dining with friends at a restaurant, order the second-least expensive wine on the list. If on a date, order the fourth-least expensive.
* If you are uncertain whether to select a merlot or beaujolais for a spring breast-of-lamb garden dinner, avoid making a decision until we come down to beat the living crap out of you.
* Many liquor stores offer a "Try Before You Buy" program, whether they know it or not.
* When sipping wine at a Catholic eucharist, swallow quickly, before the wine undergoes the miracle of transubstantiation and you get the unpleasant taste of a mouthful of human blood.
* Distinctly fruity overtones are the mark of a good sommelier.
* The quality of a wine is inversely proportional to the viciousness of the animal depicted on the label.
* Aw, man, once in high school, my friends and I got totally ripped on this wine Eric's older brother bought for us. I don't remember the name, but it was all pineapple-flavored. That was the night we got kicked out of Arby's.
* The proper glass is crucial to wine enjoyment. Before pouring wine, thoroughly rinse out the remnants of your cherry Icee.
* When throwing a tasting party, never serve more than one category of wine. [This tip courtesy of The Guide To Sucking Every Bit Of Joy And Spontaneity Out Of Living.]

xpost I have always done it like this, "I have brought this bottle of wine that we can have with dinner, if you like!" Basically, if I am at a dinner party, I will bring wine but don't want to presume that the host hasn't already picked wines that would fit their menu better. If it is a cocktail party and lots of people are bringing libations or food though, then I think you really need to put it in the "for the party" pile, unless the givee explicitly says otherwise.

If you bring me wine, I generally open it immediately but this is because I am a drunk.

xpost no, gabbneb, I am thinking of every scenario in which giving someone a gift in which you then insist on using yourself is rude. If the person you give the gift to OFFERS to open the bottle, then that is different, but your scenario makes it sound like your colleagues or family are just cheap and don't want to have to shell in for a second bottle.

xpost Brian OTM. I still am not really sure why you'd bring and open a bottle of wine in a restaurant that has a wine list, though the "very special occasion" option does make sense (if you call and ok first though, I think).

xpost or for cooking.

I can offer the South of France or a field on the West Coast of Sri Lanka as locations.

I think it gets easier the bigger the party is, but expect to pay a hefty corkage. (we had to pay £12 a bottle corkage for champagne at the venue for my dad's wedding)

Result was entire family embracing said host on the way out but also HEFTY tip by UK standards plus obvious loyalty for rest of life.

AN Other time at birthday dinner for friend her parents rang in with request for cake, surprising us both.

fuck :(

Hell no. Although I had a candle in my rice pudding on my birthday this year. You can either do cake as an instead of or as well as dessert, up to you. Pick the right cake and it would be perfect as a petit four thing with coffee and a nice close to a meal. At the end of the day the restaurant is there to serve and they will deal with birthdays all the time. The chef, more than likely, has a thing he does for birthdays.

A few weeks ago we had a large group that included a bunch of Orthodox Jews. The OJ's brought their own hermetically sealed food that we had to heat up and serve. *That* wasn't a pain in the ass on a busy night during convention season.... I think we went with $15 a head on that one.

Time/money/location permitting, the best way to make a special request at a restaurant is to go in on a slow night and have dinner or drinks there and ask the bartender/server about it - they'll either have a suggestion or send you to the manager. People tend to be much nicer about things like this in person, and it's good to show that you're putting the time and effort into it.

This is true; even I wouldn't do that.

How good are you all at asking "How much is that?" when the server suggests something? I was sideswiped by a $38 glass of champagne the other night.

RE: Party wine, I think that at the very least the host shouldn't outright state they aren't going to serve your wine. Placing it towards the back of the queue in hopes it won't get that far is a bit manipulative but acceptable in a too-much-bevvy situation.

I am terrible at actually asking how much something is, I breathed some relief Christmas night when a friend asked the server how much the bottle that we eyed up (TRUE FACT: BECAUSE IT WAS PLACED ON OUR TABLE, I WILL ADMIT THIS BUT RESTAURANT IS CANNY IF THEY KNOW MY PREFS WITHOUT ME HAVING GONE THERE!!). It wasn't on the menu and I wasn't going to ask--thankfully, it was very reasonably priced.

jaq - would you by any chance know the name of the grilled fish large/zoo-like in-the-round place in scottsdale (?) that I ate at in the late '80s or very early '90s?

Gabbneb - Was it in the old town part of Scottsdale, or the newer part up north by the resorts?

Gabb, I think your place might have been the Famous Pacific Fish Company.

yes! thanks.

There was an excellent Italian place in Scottsdale (regular version) in some kind of a strip mall/office park type thing whose name I forget completely.

Vincent's on Camelback? (nee Vincent Guerithault on Camelback?) which is Provencal-Southwestern?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/335967692_d3ca9ccb23_o.jpg

It sounds like somewhere I'd like too. We will be over at the end of January and will perhaps give it a go.

Jaq's not opening gift wine things is so true. If we're going to someone's house and have gift wine to bring, we'll usually bring slightly less gift wine for opening then and there. Of course, we might be invited back to drink the gift wine at another time, which is always nice.

The nicest sommelier I ever met worked (probably still works) at Le Crocodile, which is a lovely French restaurant in Vancouver. Mister Monkey took me there once when he had silly money, and we had just started going out together. We had the most romantic meal and drank a 1995 Chateau Beauregard, which was beautiful. We chatted pleasantly with the sommelier and asked him about Canadian wines. I told him I was going home soon and had read a magazine article about ice wine and asked him if he had any recommendations. He brought out a few dessert wine glasses and described some of the ice wines to me and let me taste them for free, which was lovely. Then we bought a Chateau Rieussec to finish off. Yum yum.

We went back to the same restaurant a couple of years later on holidays, and they remembered us. We got free armagnacs. Yum.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a0/Foghorn_Leghorn.png/200px-Foghorn_Leghorn.png

http://www.stjohnrestaurant.co.uk/

I can recommend this:

http://www.hgwines.co.uk/wines/red/?ID=81&StartRow=1

http://www.hgwines.co.uk/wines/red/?ID=87&StartRow=21