School leavers should know how to cook a meal, handle domestic finances, take part in a debate, enjoy the theatre and use the internet.

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All kids must cook, says PM

friday (lfam), Friday, 1 December 2006 04:13 (seventeen years ago) link

enjoying the theater is an "absolute life skill"?

friday (lfam), Friday, 1 December 2006 04:14 (seventeen years ago) link

how about wash their goddamn clothes?

esoj@w3rk (esoj@w3rk), Friday, 1 December 2006 04:17 (seventeen years ago) link

how about get a job

friday (lfam), Friday, 1 December 2006 05:14 (seventeen years ago) link

how about wash their goddamn clothes?

But their mum does that innit.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 1 December 2006 06:22 (seventeen years ago) link

One of my flatmates (Jim will know who, probly) used to go home with his dirty clothes and make his mum wash them for him. And we have a fricking washing machine in the flat. I never saw him cook either.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 1 December 2006 06:23 (seventeen years ago) link

The moment my mom knew I could read, she was like, "You're on your own now. if you want some food, read a cookbook. You know how to read." I always wanted to print up a bumper sticker for her that said, "If you can read, you can cook."

Abbott (Abbott), Friday, 1 December 2006 06:27 (seventeen years ago) link

enjoying the theater is an "absolute life skill"?

I'd suggest that it probably is. Not necessarily going to the theatre all the time, but to be a well-rounded adult you should be able to sit in front of some sort of artistic presentation that's being presented live without being confused or embarrassed or close-minded. That also means the ability to distinguish crap from good, and the ability to express your opinion clearly afterwards. In itself it might not be something you put to good use that often, but it implies other life skills that are important.

accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:02 (seventeen years ago) link

I used to live with a guy who'd lived with his mum all his life up until then. I spent a very enjoyable ten minutes watching him fail to put up an ironing board. He was planning to iron his socks.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:13 (seventeen years ago) link

i pretty much agree with all of that! i would add "understand how politics work" as well, i can't believe that it's not compulsory to learn in school at least how one's own country is governed.

i will never ever get my head around home finances though :(

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Handle domestic finances? Check.
Take part in a debate? Check.
Enjoy the theatre? Check.
Use the internet? Check, I guess.
Cook a meal? Um...shit.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:24 (seventeen years ago) link

(I actually made myself a pita pocket with tomato sauce, cheese and mushrooms tonight. Probably the best dish I've ever made thanks to FUSION COOKING.)

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Enjoy the theatre?

Force someone to ejoy theater (or music, or movies,...) is completely utterly dud. You can expose them (and hope they find something they enjoy) but demand that they like it so silly.

Handle domestic finances is a GR34T idea, I think, because it'll be good for everyone involved: less debts.

nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:28 (seventeen years ago) link

the thing with "cook a meal" is that obviously i can and have cooked very nice proper meals but i do struggle with day-to-day just-in-from-work cooking-for-one meals because i can never be bothered to put in any effort. i haven't really resolved this, yet. if i buy proper ingredients for these purposes they tend to rot.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:29 (seventeen years ago) link

i really really really can't handle finances! i have no idea what any tax stuff means, i never know where my bank statements are getting posted to, when i was in charge of paying bills i kept forgetting and got numerous RED LETTERS threatening COURT...how do people do any of this?? when did they learn?

i don't even understand my payslip to be honest.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:31 (seventeen years ago) link

I still can't quite manage Day-To-Day cooking. I can't seem to handle fresh ingredients that well because I have the habit of forgetting about them before they rot or whatever. EXCEPT FOR YUMMY CORN. I srsly need to improve in that regard.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:33 (seventeen years ago) link

OTM about politics. I was chatting with my boss's boss the other day driving back from Leicester, and he asked me "What's the difference between the House of Lords and House of Commons?" He didn't understand teh political system at all. I fear he is representative.

Lex, best way is to leave everything till your chore day (which is Saturday late morning/early afternoon for me) and then do it all in one go. You never forget everything, only takes 10 minutes online, and you don't get sent evil letters threatening you with bad things.

Johnney B has zeros off the line (stigoftdumpilx), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:33 (seventeen years ago) link

"What's the difference between the House of Lords and House of Commons?" He didn't understand teh political system at all. I fear he is representative.

he knows that they are two separate things => above average political knowledge i fear

i don't have a chore day - this may be the root of several organisational issues i have :(

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Or do automatic payment. Dunno how you say it in English, but it's extremely handy!

nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Automatic payment is great, because I find the hardest thing is mucking around with pieces of paper. Just remember to have enough money in your bank account!

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, here it just *waits* till you have money enough. If you check your bank account online, you see it waiting. Most of my bills are done this way.

nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I pay all bills online. It is easier and can be done from the comfort of my own home. There is no hassle setting up a direct debit, sign one piece of paper in your bank and that's it.

i don't even understand my payslip to be honest.

Unfortunately for all of my fine talk above this is so OTM it's painful :(

kv_nol (kv_nol), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:47 (seventeen years ago) link

the actual bill-paying is probably the least bad of my financial failings - i forget to pay them but at least i understand what they are. unlike taxes, pensions, payslips, bank bobbins, all the weird bits of paper and forms from various revenue places which go into the bin/on the floor...

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Not if the organisation has a deliberately crappy online payment system designed to send people mad and down to the post office.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 09:49 (seventeen years ago) link

pensions -> that's what you will get once you retire!


;-)

nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, 1 December 2006 10:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I think they should all learn Latin, and how to tie elaborate knots.

jel -- (jel), Friday, 1 December 2006 10:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Futue te ipsum!

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 10:15 (seventeen years ago) link

lex, are you officially freelancing? cos if so, i'd suggest sorting out "tax bobbins" pretty sharpish. for boring old ppl who work in offices like me, tax is something that is magically removed from our pay before we see it, due to the wonders of PAYE (pay as you earn), but you need to keep on top of it if yr self-employed or mr taxman will be having you for breakfast.

other things on payslip:

NI = National Insurance. everyone pays this, it means that if you are jobless you can claim unemployment benefits etc, also funds NHS.

Pension? = unless you've specifically opted in, i'm surprised you're paying to a pension scheme...

any other questions?

CarsmileSteve (Carsmile Steve), Friday, 1 December 2006 11:53 (seventeen years ago) link

it's v confusing this year as have been through so many states of employment! temping, proper job with automatic deductions, freelance bobbins. none of it is helped by the way i lose payslips.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:22 (seventeen years ago) link

You really need to keep payslips for at least the last year and P60s for the last five.

Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:26 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't know what a p60 is. is it like a p45? i've lost at least three of those i think :(

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:27 (seventeen years ago) link

most temp agencies do PAYE too no?

freelance earnings on top of the rest is a chore. but you can probably claim records purchased, computer, etc against.

Proxy Fule (Proxy Fule), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:28 (seventeen years ago) link

also i'm not self-employed! i freelance on the side. am i supposed to be...doing something? i don't even get payslips for some of it. unless they go to my old address. oh shit.

how do people KNOW WHAT TO DO???

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:28 (seventeen years ago) link

hang on i'm supposed to be claiming money back? or declaring extra earnings so they can take away tax?

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I DON'T UNDERSTAND

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

A P60 is a summary of all the tax you've paid in the last year, given to you by your employer. You get it every spring.

Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

(and then you faint when you see the full amount)

Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Lex, can I suggest a trip in person to your local tax office? They would much rather help you with all this stuff in advance than try and sort you out once it's arsed up.

accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:48 (seventeen years ago) link

1. receive cheque from plan b
1a. gordon brown straight creams hisself
2. note amount paid somewhere
3. add up all notes of plan b payments
4. add up all music-journalist related expenses
5. enter these sums in tax return

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 1 December 2006 12:56 (seventeen years ago) link

God, yes, they should teach useful stuff like this at school. In my day it was called "Home Economics" and they made you learn it at school. It was mainly baking cakes (which I was rubbish at) but at least I can follow a recipe, balance my checkbook and run a washing machine.

(Though IIRC, in lots of schools, only girls took Home Economics and boys took Shop or something.)

masonic boom (kate), Friday, 1 December 2006 13:02 (seventeen years ago) link

home economics is rubbish now! it's all nutrition, food science &c &c which isn't useless exactly but if people aren't being taught how to cook normal meals it seems fairly odd to teach them that.

there was a class called 'life skills' in sixth form at my school, it encompassed things like it skills, and possibly tax returns (i do onot know what a tax return is?). i didn't go to them because i did 4 a-levels.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 13:10 (seventeen years ago) link

and therefore didn't need life skills!

cis boom bah (cis), Friday, 1 December 2006 13:19 (seventeen years ago) link

french a-level >>>>> life skills

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 13:23 (seventeen years ago) link

i think they should make peeps learn life skills instead of humanities bullshit.

like: how to fix a radiator.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:16 (seventeen years ago) link

or 'bleed' one even.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm still goggle-eyed over the fact that in SOVIET RUSSIA, BILLS WAIT FOR YOU! I mean, what Nathalie said, that her bills queue up and wait for money to arrive in her account. How awesome for the end user! How un-American!

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

I wish they'd taught us more about the national legal and political systems when we were younger and how they work. Then people wouldn't be tempted to vote for the MP with the best haircut or whatever.

wogan lenin (doglatin), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

i think they should make peeps learn life skills instead of humanitiesscience bullshit like chemistry and physics which i couldn't understand at the time and have completely forgotten now not that i ever needed it.

fixed

like: how to fix a radiator.

omg! i learnt that apparently radiators have, like, WATER in them the other day - gareth couldn't believe i didn't know before. i can't imagine this really, i don't know where the water would go.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, more mechanics of your country's political system would be good.

Actually, the school I went to was very very good about this - however, it taught me about the Merkin political system, in which I cannot legally participate. I know next to nothing about the British system - in which I legally can.

masonic boom (kate), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:31 (seventeen years ago) link

In Home Ec. at high school, I learnt how to cook HAMBURGERS.

(They probably got a kickback from McDonalds for the training.)

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i sympathize, with gareth here.

on the other hand, i had a plumber come out to stop the flow of water through mine because i had no clue how. it involved a very basic screwdriver operation. mortifying.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:39 (seventeen years ago) link

i think tony blair is right, except for the theatre thing. you can get by without going to the theatre.

more important is the ability to follow multi-part television drama.

temporary enrique (temporary enrique), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:42 (seventeen years ago) link

i can't do that at all, i always forget to watch and then i get confused.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:45 (seventeen years ago) link

I think everybody should be subjected to the same awful theatre performances I've seen in my lifetime. Enduring the worst fucking performance by Shakespeare by, surprise, a university theatre guild builds character.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Friday, 1 December 2006 14:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I think learning how your political system works and some basic economics and history should be the key goals of public education (once you learn the 3 Rs of course). It's the only form of citizenship training most people get.

Handling domestic finances and using the internet would be good things to learn in school. Enjoying theater and cooking are asking a little much though.

Maria Emily (Maria), Friday, 1 December 2006 15:29 (seventeen years ago) link

home economics is rubbish now! it's all nutrition, food science &c &c

I learned this the hard way. Easy option, my arse!

kv_nol (kv_nol), Friday, 1 December 2006 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

i am also amazed by Nath's bill system. do you have bankruptcy there?

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Friday, 1 December 2006 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Cooking: Mark Bittman could make a killing if he went through "How To Cook Everything" and stripped it down to only the stuff that requires three or fewer main ingredients and a prep time (not total cooking time, obv, thinking stuff liked baked potatoes here) of about six minutes.

As is I think everybody should just get the Achewood Cookbook.

Home finances - this is totally on yr parents isn't it? I never learned jack shit about bills and credit in school at all.

TOM. BOT. (trm), Friday, 1 December 2006 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

i do think it's an appalling failing that schools don't (or at least didn't) teach the basics of home economics (literally: not all the cooking shit, but "how to manage a basic home budget"). same goes for tax: i mean, that shit can still occasionally confuse the hell out of me, and i do think it was massively excessive (as i said recently on another thread somewhere) that, as a callow 21-year-old, i had to visit my local tax centre in order to get them to explain something very simple that no other fucker seemed to understand at all.

certainly, it's rather more important than "enjoying the theatre". WTF with the cultural fascism, tony, you dick? what's next: i have to "enjoy sport"?

grimly fiendish '06 SANDBOX REMIX (simon), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I still don't understand finance in any meaningful way, which is why I will probably die a pauper.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:28 (seventeen years ago) link

this is totally on yr parents isn't it? I never learned jack shit about bills and credit in school at all.

my parents were complete shit in this area (as in most things) so therefore not good role models. I wish I had learned it in school.

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:32 (seventeen years ago) link

less whine more wine

sede vacante (blueski), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:34 (seventeen years ago) link

gotta love the french. in all seriousness, though, i think that's a superb idea: teach children to appreciate and respect alcohol.

(advanced lessons could include holding in a piss for at least three pints; ordering a round when mashed; taxi-queue etiquette; and kebabs and the consumption thereof.)

grimly fiendish '06 SANDBOX REMIX (simon), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd suggest that it probably is. Not necessarily going to the theatre all the time, but to be a well-rounded adult you should be able to sit in front of some sort of artistic presentation that's being presented live without being confused or embarrassed or close-minded. That also means the ability to distinguish crap from good, and the ability to express your opinion clearly afterwards. In itself it might not be something you put to good use that often, but it implies other life skills that are important.

I am SOOOOO behind this statement, though! Life will force you, more or less, to either learn about finances or pay an accountant. You cannot pay someone to be open-minded for you, or appreciate beauty/wisdom/human nature in whatever form.

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:41 (seventeen years ago) link

But maybe this is a hierarchy-of-needs issue? Like, given the limited time & resources of schools, what's most important? I know my gradeschool found time (somehow!) to go to plays and children's presentations of the orchestra and etc and it was a regular public school in the rural-ish midwest, but all you hear now is how the tax base is gone, programs are being cut, etc etc. Dunno about UK conditions but Michigan schools have been hurting for a while and I don't think there's a clear end in sight.

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:49 (seventeen years ago) link

using the internet would be good things to learn in school

In a lot of primary schools now (not necessarily posh ones, either) they do exactly this. My mate was a Teaching Assistant for a bit, and the school he did this in had a projector hooked up to a laptop in each classroom so that the teacher could google something if a kid asked a question the teacher didn't know!

Johnney B has zeros off the line (stigoftdumpilx), Friday, 1 December 2006 19:58 (seventeen years ago) link

how to cook a meal = add water, microwave, then stir in the cheese packet
how to handle domestic finances = not have money
how to take part in a debate = say "no, you're stupid" / "that's so gay"
how to enjoy the theatre = don't go
how to use the internet = thumbnail gallery porn

This is roughly how people have always gotten through life and will continue to do so. Teaching specific life skill is always a great idea, but the thing they're actually trying to accomplish here is less a matter of that, and maybe more a matter of trying to give people a good enough general education that they have any interest in, say, taking part in a debate.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Life will force you, more or less, to either learn about finances or pay an accountant.

uh-huh. that's why my dad, who's a volunteer for the citizens advice bureau, never sees anyone come in in a state of blind panic because they've managed to get themselves in some horrific debt hole because nobody ever bothered to teach them the basics and, for whatever reason, they never quite picked it up for themselves?

but hey, even if these people existed - and they obviously don't; my dad must be putting LSD in his porridge again - the answer's simple: they "pay an accountant". silly me. i forget that accountants are happy to work for fresh air and a smile.

You cannot pay someone to be open-minded for you, or appreciate beauty/wisdom/human nature in whatever form.

er, no, and you can't force someone to be open-minded or appreciate beauty and wisdom either. hellfire, i'm 31 and my tastes and sensibilities are growing and changing all the time. i'm frequently amazed and overjoyed by my capacity to learn more about art in all its forms, and to enjoy things i never thought in a million years i would.

this is perhaps in some way related to my education, which had a classical bent (ie i studied latin and greek and had mad old teachers who let me watch "if ..." in liberal studies) but is very much a part of who i am, my own aesthetic sensibilities etc. like i say: my brother-in-law, who's a top lad and a talented painter and musician, would rather de-nad himself than go to the theatre. does that make him a lesser human being? i think not. and he's certainly far more useful with a tax return - or a hammer and a drill - than i am, that's for certain.

i mean, i speak as a complete ponce for whom art provides a validity to life, but i really think this "teaching children to appreciate the theatre" nonsense is misguided bourgeois shitwittery of the first order. IT WON'T WORK. teaching them how to deal with tax and 'leccy bills, however, just might.

grimly fiendish (simon), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:07 (seventeen years ago) link

(actually, i don't know why i'm getting so worked up about the theatre thing; it's a total straw man. i just think that, as these things go, the ability to manage yr finances is marginally more fucking important than the ability to argue the toss about chekhov's use of metaphor.)

grimly fiendish, MA (hons) in english fucking literature, which was a complete a, Friday, 1 December 2006 20:10 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think teaching kids to appreciate "the theater" is particularly important, but it does seem sad to me that art and music are always the first things to go from school budgets. Giving kids the tools to start enjoying and go on further with artistic pursuits instead of having to take expensive private lessons or be completely independent prodigies helps at least a few people grow up happier.

I'm not sure what I'd say should be cut instead, but in my particular rural school district, there was a lot of administrative waste and sports money in the budget every year that could go (sports funding is rarely cut because apparently, unlike for music, it's very important for kids to grow up well-rounded and develop important life skills and discipline from sports).

Maria e (Maria), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay, I'm going to totally out on a limb and I'm almost certain this is not true but I submit the idea that knowing about finances and etc makes a person more useful to THEMSELVES but that being a thoughtful/considerate/cultivated (oh god that word itself is a fucking can of worms) person makes a person better for the WORLD? Clearly not applicable at the extremes, as bankruptcy benefits no one (except credit and collection agencies, I guess). Err.

It's just that I can think of a lot of people who are fine at the infrastructure of life, meeting legal obligations etc but shite at thinking clearly or appreciating big swathes of human experience and HEY, GUESS WHAT? THEY VOTE!

Maria, schools in NYC have been known to cut sports and recess periods for lack of funding/facilities, with entirely predictably horrifying results in classroom behavior and attention span, esp among boys.

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:22 (seventeen years ago) link

...I'm almost certain this is not true...

I mean, that it's not true strictly as written. I still think there's something to it SOMEwhere.

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:23 (seventeen years ago) link

these days many classes/activities like music/art as well as recess/pe are cut not b/c of money but b/c of the decision that more school time must be spent on drilling for standardized tests.

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:24 (seventeen years ago) link

yes, i agree: it's sad that "cultural" pursuits are often canned first ... but then, sadly, the world is an imperfect place.

it probably won't surprise anyone to know that i was always second-last to be picked for the rugby team (the last kid was invariably the fat dude who came out onto the pitch wearing his thermal vest) but at least i was getting some exercise. i HATED sport with a passion, and indeed still do, but again, what was more important: that i was kept at least vaguely healthy or that i learned to play the tuba?

xpost: laurel, do you really think that forcing uninterested and uncaring children to sit through more shakespeare will stop them growing up into uninterested and uncaring adults? it's a lovely idea, and you sound like a genuinely decent and caring person, but sadly the world is a shitty place full of shitters and i don't think forcible exposure to great art will do a single thing to change that.

whereas teaching said children how not to mire themselves in horrific debt-laden misery might just a) improve the balance of society as a whole between the haves (usually overprivileged cunts like me who were lucky enough to be born in the right place) and the have-nots; and b) give more people more disposable income to spend on going to the theatre anyway :)

grimly fiendish (simon), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:26 (seventeen years ago) link

(as an aside: from what i understand, in the UK physical education is often cut back because the local authorities have flogged off the playing fields to housing developers. ain't life grand?)

grimly fiendish (simon), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not sure what I'd say should be cut instead

CHEMISTRY and all that other science bullshit which was tedious at the time, which went in one ear and straight out the other, which i got straight As in with 0 effort or knowledge, and which hasn't been in the least bit useful to me since.

i think the "teaching kids to appreciate the theatre" is probably the most adequately done thing on that list at the moment! i mean, it's not about forcing kids to love the theatre, it's about giving them the opportunity to see it (which most probably wouldn't) and other art forms. i think school trips to the best artistic events possible - exhibitions, theatre, concerts - should be mandatory and as free as possible. and without any air of "you must like this".

This is roughly how people have always gotten through life and will continue to do so.

i would argue that most people who get by in life with only basic knowledge of these things would probably rather get by with a little bit more knowledge. i know i would rather know what a tax return is! i have this nagging feeling that it might be important.

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:32 (seventeen years ago) link

ha, i hated sport at school, and the few times i was forced to do it (i learnt the art of skiving quickly) i certainly wouldn't count as exercise in any meaningful sense of the word!

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:33 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think teaching kids to appreciate "the theater" is particularly important

yr not British, then?

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Simon, you're nailing me to something I didn't say: I don't particularly care about Shakespeare, I don't like theater, and I had no idea what I was supposed to be getting out of the symphony when my parents scrimped and saved for tickets. But I think a few experiences in "how to attend a public event, MAYBE learn something, applaud at the right times and be respectful...and have an opinon about it afterwards", as originally laid out by trish, sound like a reasonably good idea. And you never know, something might rub off on someone who, as Lex says, would likely otherwise never chance to find out before adult habits set in.

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:35 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't mean cut recess and gym classes in school, I mean after school sports programs that receive way more funding than any other extracurricular activity (though granted, they do require more equipment) and sometimes are prioritized more highly than artistic education within the curriculum, which I do not think is OK. This may be something more common in rural districts though. And standardized testing is another thing, ugh.

All school literature classes are basically forcing uninterested and uncaring children to sit through literature and not grow into uninterested and uncaring adults. I think it has to do some small amount of good, even if it's not totally transformative and the source of a lifelong love of literature. And would teaching children not to mire themselves in horrific debt-laden misery would actually take much longer than teaching one complete Shakespeare play?

super xxxpost.

Maria e (Maria), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:37 (seventeen years ago) link

i really can't express enough how vital it is to NOT rely on parents to do ANY of this!

lexpretend (lexpretend), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Lex, schools can't substitute for parenting, no matter how good they are. They just can't. It's a parent's responsibility to, well, FUCKING PARENT, and lots of teachers complain all the time that their students come to class without basic standards of behavior or even having physical needs met! Let's be at least halfway reasonable, shall we?

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 20:43 (seventeen years ago) link

The problem with the theater thing here is that it's being used as shorthand for something much bigger -- it's confusing the big goal of "having an appreciation for cultural experiences" with the small example of "going to the theater," which is roughly the equivalent of trying to make people think like PETA members by feeding them asparagus.

(And as a side issue, our received-wisdom shorthand for high-culture experiences tend to revolve around things that are increasingly archaic, like ballet, opera, and poetry. Thing is, if you're just shooting for that big-picture goal -- winding up with kids who are able to be open-minded and think critically about art and culture -- you can just as easily develop that with a lot of different media. I suppose the obvious example these days would be the number of people who wind up learning to think this way by being music geeks, but a more apt approach might be to read fiction not in terms of testing students' comprehension, but as something they might have aesthetic opinions about.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:01 (seventeen years ago) link

(I hate it when he's right and I had all the same pieces but didn't get there first. Speaking of thinking clearly.)

Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:09 (seventeen years ago) link

things that are increasingly archaic, like ballet, opera, and poetry

er?

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Let me rephrase that more clearly: "things that are increasingly archaic, like ballet, opera, and poetry."

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:29 (seventeen years ago) link

if you want to differentiate poetry slams (hiphop?), non-classical dance, and avant-garde opera/musical theater, maybe there isn't that much new work (well, here's one), but for 'archaic' forms even the old stuff sure pulls in big audiences.

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:40 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost -- ha, sorry, this tangles with what you just wrote

I mean, that's not a knock on any of those things -- it's just a flat fact that the art forms average people most strongly associate with Proper High Culture tend to be old and not incredibly vibrant or relevant in modern terms. The ballets and operas people think of as cultured and sophisticated are centuries old; it shouldn't be controversial to point out that these formats peaked a very long time ago, and aren't exactly major forms of expression in the modern-day US or UK. Poetry does a little better, relevance-wise, but much like ballet and opera, it's largely supported by small academic circles and arts philanthropy and grants, not any kind of significant public audience -- and once again, the names that would come up on a Family Feud board for "name a high-culture poet" were all buried hundreds of years ago. Classical music: the same.* (And I think we all know that when laymen talk about the need to appreciate these things, they are not usually talking about exposing children to cutting-edge dance choreography or 21st century microtonal compositions.) I'm glad there are people who keep these forms alive, and people who keep them pushing forward in new directions, and I'm happy to see the many ways in which they still have profound effects on a lot of people -- all sorts of people -- but it'd be insane to claim they're particularly vibrant or prevalent or popular media for artistic expression in the 21st century (even among the educated upper classes who made them seem important centuries ago).

(* Classical music is actually a bit more like soccer in the U.S. -- the kind of thing a lot of people are involved in when they're young and yet turn out not to be massive consumers of across the rest of their lives. But obviously even the kind of puffed-up semiclassical and opera music that's moderately popular is like deliberately archaic, all plush curtains and violin soloists in corsets and "look, this is cultured old-Europe stuff" -- on some level it's playing to the very same "eat your vegetables" vibe that's behind telling kids this stuff is where sophisticated High Culture lives.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 21:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I guess part of my point is that instead of teaching children how to actually engage with culture and aesthetics, we have a habit of pointing them at slightly dusty, archaic spectacles and saying "this is what high culture is" -- frilly tutus, tuxedoed tenors singing in Italian, poetry old enough that they spend most of their time just chopping through outdated language. And that's a really worthwhile exercise, in part, because it helps kids learn to think across time and history, and forces them to pay attention to changes in context, and all that. But as far as getting them to engage with culture ... I mean, you're putting them in front of the culture that's the most glass-clased and velvet-roped and embalmed and distant, and so it's not surprising that a lot of them conclude that they don't get it and it's just some kind of eat-your-vegetables stuff. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the approach where the teacher brings in a Biggie CD as part of the poetry section, either, but there's a lot of fairly normal middle ground, where you can teach engaging-with-high-culture using forms that are more ... engagement-friendly. (Whether they're incredibly old, like the fart jokes in Don Quixote, or recent, like plenty of plainspoken 60s poetry.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:02 (seventeen years ago) link

In 2002, 6.6 million adults (3.2% of the adult population) attended at least one opera performance. 37.6 million adults experienced opera on TV, radio, video, audio recordings, or via the Internet. The U.S. opera audience grew by 35% between 1982 and 1992. This trend continued through 2002, when the opera audience grew by an additional 8.2%. In 2002, 25.2% of the U.S. opera audience was under the age of 35 years old. (Source: National Endowment for the Arts)

From 1990 to 2004, over 172 new operatic works were produced by professional opera companies in North America. (Source: OPERA America)

and there's at least one opera company of some sort in every city in America with a metro population > 1 million (excepting Las Vegas, Buffalo, and OKC, but there are opera companies in Reno, Erie, and Tulsa, respectively).

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:34 (seventeen years ago) link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4159217.stm

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Umm -- so the number of US adults who attend at least one opera performance a year is roughly equal to the number of US adults who buy a given Nickelback CD? This disproves my point how, exactly?

Opera and (semi-)classical are doing damned well right now, but -- like I said -- basically in a tarted-up archivist's sense, pretty much just finding as many large-breasted blonde soloists as possible and soaring on guys like Boccelli, who just about no one with any knowledge of the art form thinks is particularly talented in the least. It's doing decently well as a kind of lifestyle music right now, which, yes, probably makes it more alive than usual. (Although maybe not -- surely this stuff is on a continuum with people buying millions of Mantovani records in the 50s and 60s, or endless film soundtracks during the 80s.) But for the most part I don't see people engaging with it in any kind of committed or analytical way, which is the whole teaching opportunity we're talking about -- it seems to me that the bulk of sales of this kind of stuff are going to people who were not previously interested in classical music, and then hit a certain age and found the top-40 stations were all hip-hop these days, and were suddenly taken with either throwing on some Norah Jones or dabbling in showy, easily digestable, stagily old-Europe classical.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 22:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Also I doubt anyone's trying to teach kids about high culture by taking them to the Springer thing.

Anyway, we really don't need to argue about exactly how popular and/or archaic opera is: my fairly minor point was that the formats we point schoolkids to in order to teach them about high art are ones that have significantly fallen off as the dominant or most current forms of the present. The top-level popular conception of high art consists mostly of stuff that's centuries old, to the point where for the average person, the concept of "artistically sophisticated" is more or less not distinguished from the concept of "very old and European and with fancy dresses."

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:01 (seventeen years ago) link

so the number of US adults who attend at least one opera performance a year is roughly equal to the number of US adults who buy a given Nickelback CD? This disproves my point how, exactly?

the number of US adults who attended at least one opera performance in 2002 exceeded the number who attended at least one nickelback performance in 2006 many times over, and was twice the number of adults+kids who bought 2006's biggest selling album. the number of adults who experienced opera in some form during that year exceeded the number of adults+kids who have ever purchased an album by willie nelson, bob dylan, def leppard or the backstreet boys.

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion. Not sure how that contradicts the pretty straightforward claim that opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music, or that the bulk of what those attendees were seeing was written hundreds of years ago?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

centuries old

more than half the operas in the standard repertoire are less than 150 years old, and about 30% are from the 20th century

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, so attendance for an entire category of music barely exceeds sales of albums for four particular pop artists out of a freaking zillion.

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

(and some of the biggest pop phenomenons of all time)

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

opera is not exactly the dominant form of modern-day American pop music

well no, the whole point of high culture is that it isn't pop

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay, whatever, Gabbneb, clearly opera -- with a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League! -- is the dominant form of American music-making in the 21st century, dominating the radio airwaves, inevitably taking the Grammy for Best New Performer, inextricably entangled with the social development of teenagers, its catchphrases acting as a kind of lingua franca (oops, Italia!) through the US and the world, and scaling heights of cultural influence unthinkable in the age of Verdi. My bad.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:18 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. -- sarcasm aside, the difference between "high culture" and "popular culture" needn't simply be a matter of format, with something like opera roped off into "high" and something like pop music roped off elsewhere. (I'd actually suggest that the socioeconomic dynamics that made that possible have crumbled too much for it to still be the case.) Film is probably a good example of how a given medium can span all uses. (And film is a medium that -- for both high and low applications -- I'd describe as not being archaic, as a format.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:24 (seventeen years ago) link

a yearly concert attendance double that of the Canadian Football League!

more than triple, actually, but CFL attendance was more than three times that of Canadian opera attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

that's attendance in one year compared to sales over as much as 40 years

'experience', actually, not attendance

nuneb (nuneb), Friday, 1 December 2006 23:32 (seventeen years ago) link

i've never seen an opera nor has anyone I know (that I know of)

Ms Misery (MsMisery), Saturday, 2 December 2006 04:44 (seventeen years ago) link

you have the opportunity to do so in Austin (which is premiering a Philip Glass opera this year), San Antonio, El Paso, McAllen, Houston (which has one of the best companies in America), Galveston, Fort Worth, Dallas, Garland, Amarillo or Abilene

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:31 (seventeen years ago) link

The problem with theatre these days is that it isn't serious or elitist enough. If I had a dollar for every christ-awful "modern" re-telling of Shakespeare I've ever seen, I'd have enough money to see a psychologist enough times to get me over all that.

YES, WE KNOW SHAKESPEARE MADE A FEW KNOB JOKES. GET OVER IT.

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:34 (seventeen years ago) link

there's all sorts of 'serious' and 'elitist' theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:39 (seventeen years ago) link

or you can see america's best opera company this year at your local movie theatre

nuneb (nuneb), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes but it doesn't cost 5 bux!

I WANT CHEAP SERIOUS ELITIST THEATRE!!

[electric sound of] esteban buttez (Estie Buttez), Saturday, 2 December 2006 05:44 (seventeen years ago) link

let's bring ILX to the stage!

er, nothing else to add, really. other than "nabisco OTM", but i feel such truisms should be banned from the sandbox and indeed from nuILX :)

grimly fiendish (simon), Saturday, 2 December 2006 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

i am able to do all of these things, so i left school.
now just gimme a desk job with benefits you fucks.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

how about change a flat? do CPR? write a résumé?

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:15 (seventeen years ago) link

i can change a flat and write a resume.

ian (orion), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't do either but I can do CPR. :(

remy bean (bean), Saturday, 2 December 2006 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link


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