Girls thread cont.

So further to the discussion we were having recently about body image and anxiety I just did something I never thought I'd do which is take a pic of my stomach and submit it to some online "real stomachs" thing. It feels awesome. I am half tempted to post it here not to solicit comments or reassurances or whatever but just as another FUCK YOU this is real, I am real and here I am. Anyway - that is all. Taking a picture of my stomach wasn't nearly as anxiety inducing as I expected and this is coming from someone who pretended to be ticklish there so that her first two boyfriends wouldn't touch her stomach.

Also I have one of those lip stains you guys all like in "Gothic" that i'm just never gonna be able to wear. Who wants it? I'll send it to you along with a holiday card!

what color is it?

i am starting to get into lip stains

It's a red that can get pretty dark depending on how much you layer it. There's a balm on the other end. I tried it once and otherwise it's new.

ooh! me! me!

i bought my first nars lipstick, i'm starting to wear lipstick for the first time in my life (and earrings) and people keep telling me i look "so grownup"

x-post

:) OK - msg me your address on FB and I'll send it off this weekend! I think it would look good with your hair/complexion tbh.

<3 earrings and short hair

thanks and sent!

I have that color lipstain and I love it! I avoided rocking red lipstick for a long time due to thinking my teeth were really yellow, but I decided it's better than having yellow teeth and almost no lip color at all (how I look w/out lipstick).

Blue based red lipsticks are supposed to make teeth look whiter! Also, crest white strips are amazing.

I would be so into crest white strips if they didn't activate my gag reflex something fierce. I am weird about having dental glop in my mouth, even in the small quantities present in the white strips.

awww

My yellow, crumbling teeth could use a little whitening, except that my front teeth are capped. Are there any over-the-counter treatments that will work on capped teeth?

that "3 ways to wear lipstick" youtube someone posted made me realise i CAN wear red lippy!!! i have a small mouth/thinnish lips, so i always felt red was out bc it only made my mouth looker smaller and pinched. BUT applying it with a finger and working it in to produce more of a stained look is AMAZING.

hello girls of girl thread!

:-)

Maybe this should go on the cosmetics/style thread but there's a new Urban Decay Naked palette coming out!

Ooo really? Because I need another eyeshadow palette. NO REALLY I DO.

Christine, my front teeth are bonded, not capped, but everything I've read said that the OTC whitening products only work on actual teeth. Also, Abbot, I tried white strips anyway and I found them disgusting.

I went to say hello to a coworker yesterday and she was just hanging out at work with BLUE teeth whitening strips in her mouth. Actually, the other attorney in my office was an avid white strip user at work in the months leading up to her wedding. I've got a strong aversion to salivary mouth noises and I found it hard to be around both of them because there is a lot of slurping involved in talking while pretending you don't have teeth whitening strips in your mouth.

I'm still loving the one I recently got.

Why anyone would wear the strips in public is beyond me. You wear them for a 1/2 hour a day - can't they find 30 mins at home?

Maybe this should go on the cosmetics/style thread but there's a new Urban Decay Naked palette coming out!

p sure they know they have a license to print money on their hands with that

E, btw, that's awesome about the stomach picture. I've thought about doing that or even outfit pics but then I chicken out.

Awww, thanks J. If it gets put up on the site with all the other ones then maybe I'll link it. Maybe.

ohgod my stomach is turning at just the thought of having to talk to someone slurping on white strips in the workplace

in other news, i want to buy some fancy lipstick while in nyc this week. like Dior.

rrrobyn, when do you get here?? I have something basically every single day until I leave on the 17th but I'd rather see you than do half of it.

yes see me see me! or i can come with you to yr things you have to do, haha :)
i get in on sunday night, staying at V's in little italy
i want to drink drinks and eat foods and talk talks

Mother of pearl, the UD naked palette is $48 and I have a Sephora VIB offer of $20 off a $50 purchase. It's ON.

"UD" are the initials of my undergrad alma mater and I just had a strange moment of disorientation rereading my post.

i really want that naked palette. how did you get that $20 off offer?

Signing up for a Sephora rewards card and spending way too much money there afaik.

It came in the email.

I had no idea this thread was here! the new ud palette is out already but it also sold out already.
and I can totally relate to whomever said that they've been wearing lipstick more & people are noticing how grown up they are. I started wearing makeup regularly for a similar reason and last night I bought my first pair of heels. I feel like my 16 year old self would shudder at my 34 year old self.

Jenny! My offer was for $15 off of $50. WTF?

Sephora loves me the most, I guess.

Clearly.

I feel like this is the year I've discovered girly things. Or the year I shed my "I don't give a fuck" persona that I've had since the 90s. Maybe that's not entirely true. I gave somewhat of a fuck but now I'm actually making an effort.

In the Eighties, teenage girls didn't wear lipstick. Except for me.

I have a Sephora rewards card and I never ever get emails. :(

Wait I thought it was meant that they came out with like a second version of the Naked palette, I think I am confuse.

With 12 ***NEW SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT*** colors. I would buy it!

I have the sephora $15 off of $50 code if anyone wants it -- I'm not going to use it.

Are you guys talking about the UD 15 Year Anniversary Eyeshadow Collection? Half of those colors I like and half are Gothics Miss Piggy.

I remember asking you all a long time ago about how old teenage girls had to be nowadays before they were allowed to wear makeup, and you all were like, "Huh? I didn't start wearing it until my mother/my employer/my best friend told me I should be wearing it." I was playing around with my mother's makeup from the time I could stand up, and wearing it all of the time starting from when I was 12. Am I the odd woman out here (I've pretty much spent all of my life around people much older than I am), or are you all?

Nevermind I figured this out
Naked2
Can't wait until 2013 to get one.
xp

I think there is one repeat color from the first Naked, but the rest are new in Naked 2.

Ha, I like some of the gothic Miss Piggys.

Oh I like some of them too but now when I try to rock super bright colors I feel like one of my eighth graders.

I was allowed to wear makeup on "special occasions" starting at 13 and then whenever I wanted shortly thereafter because try and stop 13yo me from wearing makeup, Mom, I dare you. Before that I was allowed to "play with" makeup but not wear it out in public.

I had spots at 13 so wanted to use concealer and face powder to cover them up. I was woefully ignorant of so much about make up though. I also used mascara and some kind of eyeshadow when I was about 14. my mum didn't mind and bought me a few eyeshadows but I kind of wish she'd sat me down and taught me how to do stuff. She did let me raid her make-up bag though so I wore some interesting frosted lipsticks. I only ever wanted to wear 'natural' colours until I was about 16 when I met my BFF at that time and went a bit makeup crazy with blue glitter or red eyeshadow and the like.

my aunty was an avon rep, and one time she gave me a huuuuuge bag of all her old samples - it was the happiest day of my life. i think i was about 7 at the time? anyway, my mum told me i had to keep it put away, but i wanted to have it spread out on my dresser, like a beauty salon. so i did. and then my mum saw it about 5 mins later and said "that's it! you can't have it anymore!" and took it all away from me.

aw!
I actually went all day today in public with no make-up (except eye make-up) because I went to the dermatologist. and it wasn't so bad! (except at the dermatologist he decided to check me all over for moles so I thank God that I put on nice undies even though I badly have to do laundry). However I am making up (...) for it now as I am using PRIMER for the first time and have on lipstick for the first time in about 3 years. It's because I have to go out later and I'm bored. The primer is making a difference right now wrt how my make-up is going on, but it could all go horribly wrong. I could end up not being able to write...

Went to brunch w a few people yest, including someone nice, intelligent, talented, not a juicebox or an asshole, who is caring and respectful of all the women I've ever seen him with, and is by all appearances an ally, if that's a good way to put it, and he told me that the true force behind everything in the world is "pussy power."

He dates my good friend, who is very happy and holds her own, so I guess it's all fine and everything, but I just stared at the ceiling and said, "It's so INTERESTING to me when white middle-class men don't think they're the most powerful people in the room" and today I feel RAGE.

It's so disappointing when people turn out not to be very bright or nuanced and I wanted to like them as equals but...now we will have to not-discuss certain subjects, ever.

I guess I'm p dumb for being surprised by that. I keep ascribing ilxor-level qualities to people I meet irl and they keep turning out to be not very informed or able to discuss ideas or movements or w/e, and to believe repugnant things.

i...don't know how to say this without sounding like an asshole but a lot of smart men i have known have been dumb about gender. eventually i had to kind of realign my image of smart.

^^^
also "pussy power"...really?

that's that thing where men turn all their angst about the chicks who never slept with them into a phantom "power" without thinking for even a second about the experience of being a woman.

Yeah. I will...think about that, hs. I tried the angle "Don't you see that you're continuing to define male success by access to/possession of female sexuality?" but it had no effect, he says this is the way the world works, very sorry to break it to me, not arguing that women don't also have challenges vis a vis dealing with men, but this is simple reality.

But I don't think chicks have ever refused to sleep with him!! He's smart and cute and has options! And is dating someone by his own choice who doesn't subscribe to any of this nonsense!

I guess I don't feel rage as much as bewilderment and agitation at finding myself again in this Teflon box with the walls closing in, at least as far as reaching out to & connecting with this person is concerned.

yeah i know exactly the feeling you're describing.

even if chicks always sleep with him when he wants, that kind of comment indicates his only way of viewing women is through the lens of his own access to sex with them.

the thing a lot of smart men do is the thing that was happening in the wooing thread the other day...they are smart and they know they are smart and they have been encouraged all their lives that their opinions are important and that everyone wants to hear what they have to say on every subject. while the smart women i know are more likely to hang back in coversations and listen and respond to what is said, especially on a topic that they may not know as much about as the other people speaking (i.e. as a white straight woman i would not chime in with my opinions about what it is like to be a black lesbian woman, because all i can really do is listen/try to understand/be an ally).

i was trying to write something very much like that post, bell, but failing completely. when i mentioned that i had to realign my image of smart i partially meant preemptively stopping myself from thinking of dudes like that as automatically smarter than me. anyway, otm.

Completely unrelated: I tried applying crazy super-red lipstick with my finger yesterday, just to see how it looked. Within 10 mins of leaving the house the coffee barista said "wow look at you! love your lipstick!"

!!!! :D

Sometimes I feel like a complete alien you when you guys talk about these things. It's not that I don't agree with and/or understand what you're saying. I think that maybe I willfully ignore certain things or choose to look at things through lens. Either that or I don't encounter as many assholes* I don't think I could (or would want to) walk around that angry or bitter or threatened all the time. I literally wouldn't want to leave my house.

* highly unlikely

"pussy power" is pretty inexcusable though

^^^ this (xp to E). i have a hard time participating in these discussions bc i haven't really experienced a lot of sexism, and also because i have seen the effects of sexism towards men (i won't go into that here, bc it is sort of long and probably boring and probably too personal for ilx). it's not that i disagree with the overarching arguments put forward by ppl like laurel and hs and jenny et al., but it's just that my personal experiences don't leave me very well-informed on the subject.

veggrrrll: i know, right??? it was truly a revelation to me. p.s. i might be in sac next sunday if you have a spare hour or two for a coffee? not sure yet, going up to meet with artist about book we are making, which might take all day.

It kind of sounds like you're saying that feminist (or patriarchy-aware, if you prefer) women are angry, bitter, and threatened? Which is the humorless feminist/feminazi stereotype in a nutshell?

I didn't mean that to sound dismissive of anyone's experience btw. More often when I read these discussions and feel alienated I wonder why I'm not more angry, threatened etc because I realize that probably should be. That said, I think that's where the ignoring a lot of stuff comes in. I don't know. I might not be making any sense.

It kind of sounds like you're saying that feminist (or patriarchy-aware, if you prefer) women are angry, bitter, and threatened?

NO! That's not what I was saying at all.

I am a feminist through and through and resent the insinuation that I'm not tbh.

Hang on, brb. Will write more. That was just - pretty obnoxious imo.

ENBB, the friend of mine that he's dating is sort of like you, in that respect: She never thought about it, because she never noticed anyone abridging her rights, because she just did what she wanted, cheerfully, anyway, and thought, aww wasn't it nice of that person to look out for me? Meanwhile hypothetical possibly-lechy older guy or whomever is left in her wake feeling lucky that she smiled at him so glowingly and asked for his help.

O_o

i can't speak for Laurel or Jenny but 1) i get mad like 20 times a day and 2) i like to have some big-picture framing for my experiences; patriarchy or whatever you want to call it works beautifully for this purpose. (don't want to overstep but i think Jenny has this overarching systems thinking habit of mind going on, too.) both of those are basically personality traits, and i wouldn't wish either of them on others, particularly the rageball one. they're not right or wrong they're just the way i am. i know it can be alienating to people and i am sorry about that in this thread because i love this thread and all the contributors to it!

xxxp!

Not insinuating anything. Just clarifying bc it sounded out of character.

I mean luckily for my agreeable friend because she's thin and pretty and capable of glowing at people. I love her but I could roll my eyes out of my head when this comes up.

well, i mean, feminism is right, but i think both macro and micro approaches to it are valuable and neither is better.

ENBB The question marks were supposed to soften my post so it read as inquisitive and not accusatory - I shouldn't take shortcuts in such discussions and I'm really sorry for not being more clear.

ENBB, the friend of mine that he's dating is sort of like you, in that respect: She never thought about it, because she never noticed anyone abridging her rights, because she just did what she wanted, cheerfully, anyway, and thought, aww wasn't it nice of that person to look out for me? Meanwhile hypothetical possibly-lechy older guy or whomever is left in her wake feeling lucky that she smiled at him so glowingly and asked for his help.

O_o

― Making like Melusine (Pyth), Monday, December 5, 2011 1:49 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Permalink

Laurel - can you elaborate on this a little more? Like what kind of situation are we talking about here? I'm just trying to understand your example/mindset.

a lot of smart men i have known have been dumb about gender.

otm. the wooing thread was making my head all splodey last wk. i hang back when talking about relatively safe topics. when there's Men Telling Women About Sexism (or why women are misunderstanding womens' common experiences in this culture) i get really agitated and have to disengage. this happens a lot.

i really admire jenny and others who can speak up to others' privilege and ignorance. i wish i had that confidence.

xp--it's completely understandable to distance yrself from some of this stuff. i've been reading more feminist blogs and such lately, and awareness of this stuff is draining. it's like anything--you keep informed on what you can handle. i don't read much current events stuff because it's just too draining. i go thru phases where i tune out the feminist writings for the same reason.

xp again oh hai i take a long time to type. back to read more carefully.

sometimes i feel like women feel a lot of pressure to respond to things in similar ways but we needn't!

horseshoe go ahead and speak for me bc you're smart and that 20x per day rage sounds about right.

Although I do wish this on everybody, if I'm being honest, since I think we'd get more done about the 10000000s of social injustices (firm believer in intersectionality here) with more angry people.

i guess it can be hard to disentangle agreeableness as an innate (and perfectly lovely) personality trait and agreeableness as obligatory social conditioning for women. i am not sure who i am responding to now nor whether that's relevant.

can you elaborate on this a little more? Like what kind of situation are we talking about here?

Well, for one instance: You know the way men say, "Smile, beautiful" and in that and other ways try to make you interact with them as a happier/more agreeable person than you feel like? When that happens to her, she thinks, "That was nice of that strange man, he wants me to have a better day. I guess now I *do* feel like smiling!"

Also she just doesn't realize people are flirting/hitting on her, because she's that way to everyone all the time. So she gets passes made at her even though she was married AND WEARING A RING, but she never never stops anyone from being over-friendly or familiar with her before it gets that far. So she lets herself be OOOZED over and hugged and have her hand clasped for long periods and doesn't notice that it might be GROSS until someone LICKS HER HAND in public. True story.

also to clarify, i wish feminist consciousness on everyone because it is just the truth, but i don't wish my personal intensity on others; i am like that about everything, guys. it can be exhausting.

Re: filtering - I'm fixing to mute a whole bunch of repro justice ppl on Twitter because I knowwwwwwww and it just grinds me down and bums me out to read about the nonstop assault on women's bodily autonomy and sometimes I need my internal fortitude to stare down another dipshit lawyer who treats me like a secretary because he needs something done and I'm the closest person with boobs.

And re the Romants thread, after my last post I gave up, removed the bookmark, and haven't looked back so don't go giving me too many props there.

it can be hard to disentangle agreeableness as an innate (and perfectly lovely) personality trait and agreeableness as obligatory social conditioning for women.

She is 100% the former and stands her ground for her own rights and desires like 5x better than I do!!! But I get the impresh that men who interact w her see it as the latter quality.

OK - really interesting and will post more. I'm regretting starting this discussion now though because I'm trying to eat and have a mtg in 20 mins. If I disappear - I'll be back in a bit.

[Redacted] just said something to me in chat that I think it's probably 100% otm and colors my experience a lot wrt to my everyday interaction with men. I've thought about this a lot but didn't really know how to express it without sounding like, well, an asshole.

"I think you do present like my friend (redacted) in many ways on this topic
and frankly she has benefited from men's sexism and used it in her best interests again and again and again for many years and doesn't really "notice" it becuase it works TO HER ADVANTAGE."

That said the "Smile, honey!" command is one of my biggest pet peeves and if anything usually makes me scowl even more.

I get the impresh that men who interact w her see it as the latter quality.

No, wait, sorry, that wasn't quite accurate: I don't think those men even NOTICE that it's a "quality." I think it just reinforces THEIR belief that pretty, talented younger women will glow and sparkle at them as part of the natural order of things.

It's even more interesting/aggravating because after her, I'm the next person they have to interact with.

XP Oh shit can we take that person's first name out of that post, please?!?

Oh man, I'm so sorry - I didn't even realize her name was in there. :(

that makes sense. the awareness of how/the degree to which one benefits from male sexism is a huge thing in itself...my own acknowledgement of that is a big difference between my young enthusiastic feminism and my old lady jaded feminism.

Who are the sandbox mods?

x-post - No, I know it is. I think I may be making myself seem more ignorant about some of this than I really am. :/

holy god @ "pussy power." it's kind of inconceivable to me that that's a real thing someone thinks.

I'll just stick to recommending you guys some sparkly shit as is my place in life.

(OBVIOUSLY I AM KIDDING JUST IN CASE THAT WASN'T CLEAR)

;)

i used to be a lot less aware of sexism in general, and have ignored misogyny in friends/people i've dated and even participated myself in misogynistic thinking. over the last few years i've educated myself a lot more about feminism, been a part of many online discussions about feminism and gender, and even participated in activist events, which i never would have seen myself doing 5 years ago.

in a way, being aware does make me angrier about things. but before that i was internalizing the anger and directing it at myself, which was not healthy for me in any way.

XP Oh shit can we take that person's first name out of that post, please?!?

got it

oh i didn't mean to say that you had to think about it/hadn't already thought about it. it's just been something i've been talking about a lot with irl friends lately. because we're getting older and more jaded lol.

xxxp to erica

before that i was internalizing the anger and directing it at myself, which was not healthy for me in any way

Yeah, I totally do that.

Oh man so much I want to say but I am at work & on an iPod .

shit, meant to post as anonymous mod, sorry

Hahah thank you!

oh also . . .

"benefited from men's sexism and used it in her best interests again and again and again for many years and doesn't really "notice" it becuase it works TO HER ADVANTAGE."

This is something that I'm sure I've done many many times both consciously and unconsciously and it's something I carry around a lot of guilt about. Like, I feel bad because I know that most times this works to my advantage while for other women that's obv not the case.

OK - badly timed meeting. Back later.

consciously and unconsciously

errr subconsciously

feeling guilty about that is just another way of internalizing anger and directing it at yourself imo. acknowledging that that's a reality of an unequal society in which women are objectified should ideally free you from feeling like it's your fault when it happens.

lol go to your meeting!

like, there's a privilege involved in benefiting from male sexism but it's pretty limited and it seems like you're aware of it, which is what's important.

i feel like i get treated as an "honorary dude" a lot - for better or for worse

This weekend I spent way too much time reading reviews of classic YA novels & now I feel nostalgic and horrible.

I know the feeling. Sometimes I feel like I could spend the rest of my life just reading old YA novels and be happy.

This guy was asking me if I could make a list of "chick" and "dude" traits, like just rhetorically, not that everyone has them but as they are stereotyped, and I said, "I like to drink beer, watch soccer, and work on bikes, so you might be asking the wrong person."

On that subject there's some really good stuff about "patriarchal bargains" out on the Internet that is really OTM. Also I've benefitted plenty from sexism, on purpose and unconsciously, I think probably everybody has. I can't judge other women for doing the same - I blame the patriarchy.

In retrospect if I even made him think just a little bit, it was probably worth it. He kept describing dumb dudes who get butthurt easily as "girls" and I corrected him to "babies" a couple of times, and my friend said, "You should appreciate how gentle she's being with you right now" and I was like "I'm just offering him an alternative to his regrettable word choice, so when he realizes he regrets it, he'll have another option." So mad.

when you say "benefited from sexism" what kinds of things are you talking about? I'm trying to think of how I've benefited from it -- apart from like, not always having to carry heavy objects, or not getting punched when i tell off some crazy dude.

occasionally i will let a man pay for me on a date, which is not very feminist of me and brings up all kinds of weird issues (does this person now feel like they are owed sex?) but i feel like it's justifiable to based on the wage gap and the fact that i foot the sexual health bill 99% of the time (birth control, visits to obgyn, treatment for the many things that can go wrong that aren't a problem for people with genitals on the outside of the body, etc.) so it's kind of a draw, i guess (i still offer to pay always).

the only times in recent memory that guys have paid for my food/drinks were:

1. on my birthday
2. lunch w/a male friend i was giving tax advice
3. lunch w/my ex-bf

catching up . . .

btw Sarah the lipstain/card were mailed today :)

It's not really about that, I'm pretty sure, although the most common & accepted patriarchal bargain is probably the one in which women trade their fertility, sexuality, domestic work, personal assets, and emotional support for men's improved economic status, WHEN the exchange is primarily transactional.

Here.

Half the moronic male managers here have no idea how to interact with me because I have actual conversations & dont flirt in the office at all. I found out through a co-worket one manager was "scared" of me. As far as I know it's because I have politely disagreed with him in casual conversation. o_O

But there is no WAY i'd ever play the game needed to be accepted by that guy (professionally), or the management in general (90% old male sales execs). I know it hurts my "career" such as it is, but I'd rather be genuine & lower paid than be fake & flirt my way into an office with a window. I should be angrier, I guess, but I'm just glad I like what I do, can speak my mind & be mostly autonomous.

i just feel like i'm atypical - though i'm probably not.

lol - i think i tried to make that patriarchal bargain, but it ended doing a lot for my improved economic/social status, and not as much for his, and the rest is tmi in the 77 break up thread on real ILX.

I just started reading Laura Kipnis’s latest book, “The Female Thing,” and her thesis is similar: That feminism and traditional femininity are at odds with each other, and that compliance with the traditional trappings of femininity only serves to keep women down. I’m not too far into it yet, but in the intro she points out that traditional femininity wasn’t directly put upon women, but created by women themselves as a rational response to their own powerlessness. She argues that, now that women have the same legal rights as men, we’re still choosing to embrace these feminine things, and that feminism has been complicit or even supportive of that embrace. And, in embracing these things, women are complicit in their own oppression.**

Where Kipnis loses me is in her failure to recognize that women embrace the traditionally feminine because it still confers great benefits on us. It even confers benefits on us within the realm of feminist activism — just look at how Gloria Steinem was received as compared to, say, Kate Millett. Ridiculous and unfair? Yes. But no one has ever told me that I’m only a feminist because I can’t snag a man.

From here.

i don't really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally.

maybe (probably) i am one of those annoying happy friendly people you were referring to upthread? who knows. sometimes i get mad, and when i do i say something. the other times i go into teacher mode and try to illustrate a better way to be.

Yes. I think I am probably pretty similar to you in that respect.

Although I'm not that happy/friendly all the time. Maybe like 70%.

i don't really feel the all consuming daily rage that you guys were discussing, but i also resist feeling rage in general when i could be using my energy to spread more positive things. not stupidly or blindly, but mindfully and intentionally

In fact, I used to be a lot angrier but years ago realized that it was doing me a lot more bad than good on a personal level and decided to let go of some of it. In general but also in respect to the topic at hand. That's sort of what I was getting at earlier.

Also Jenny I'm sorry if I came off as ultra defensive and rude earlier. Obv a sensitive topic for me.

well no one is happy or friendly ALL the time

lol, I know! I was kidding about the 70%. I can get as grumpy anyone but I think I'm happier/friendly more so than not and if I'm angry or upset at something those emotions are directed at that particular thing/person in particular. Usually.

okay so i finally put my profile pics and background on okc on friday night and as of today i have two dates
this thing may actually work

I was being sensitive, too! Angry, bitter, threatened are loaded words in this context so my first two thoughts were, roughly, "OMG! Battle stations!" and then "That's ENBB, I have to be reading this wrong."

A way in which I benefitted from sexism: hanging out with dudes and when they talked shit about various women for being sluts or prudes or too high maintenance or slovenly or too fat or always on a diet or being girly and shallow or manly and dykish, I would join in to differentiate myself from these other, inferior women and so keep these dudes from turning their criticisms on me. This was largely in high school/college but I retained tendencies to act like one of the guys because that tended to draw praise from dudes until law school when I made some brash, irrverant (I thought) comment about "What's wrong? Does your pussy hurt?" to a male classmate and my still good friend Emily was like "What the fuck is wrong with you?" causing me to reexamine my behavior.

I still cringe in embarrassment to think of that, but I appreciated the call out.

jenny that was me too

i've also been there, and also cringe at it.

Oh, here is a link that is relevant to some previous discussions: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/12/impossibly-beautiful.html

Well, for one instance: You know the way men say, "Smile, beautiful" and in that and other ways try to make you interact with them as a happier/more agreeable person than you feel like? When that happens to her, she thinks, "That was nice of that strange man, he wants me to have a better day. I guess now I *do* feel like smiling!"

No offense to anyone but I can't imagine anyone reacting this way? Unless maybe James Franco said it? And then only maybe? Any time some strange dude tells me to smile it's GLOWER CITY, sir.

For reals. I swear.

ENBB, the friend of mine that he's dating is sort of like you, in that respect: She never thought about it, because she never noticed anyone abridging her rights, because she just did what she wanted, cheerfully, anyway, and thought, aww wasn't it nice of that person to look out for me? Meanwhile hypothetical possibly-lechy older guy or whomever is left in her wake feeling lucky that she smiled at him so glowingly and asked for his help.

O_o

― Making like Melusine (Pyth), Monday, December 5, 2011 1:49 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink

I'm still sort of bewildered by this one. I guess maybe I'm imagining her asking for directions or something and just really don't see many man thinking that way? Or, I mean if they did think that I don't really see how it's that bad? If an attractive/nice guy smiled broadly at me in a similar situation I would probably feel good about it too?

I mean, the answer might just a be a simple "it's totally different because it's a woman v. man" but I don't know that that is necessarily always true.

I have a pretty and very charismatic friend who walks a very thin line between the kind of happy bubbly innocence Pyth is describing, and a knowing deployment of it to achieve things large and small. E.g. large = professional relationships, small = cheap drinks. I find it really hard to tell the two apart, but I do believe both are going on, the innocence and the deployment - sometimes together, but sometimes just one or the other.

I appreciate ENBB's forthrightness itt. I'm pretty ignorant about feminist thought, and I don't pay as much attention to gender relationships as I should. I don't feel the rage, and I'm not sure whether that's a bad thing or not, but I know that I *do* like open debate in threads like this and I'm glad ENBB mentioned her occasional incomprehension, because I've felt it too and wondered whether and how to address it here.

xxpost Abbs: a manager at work (who purports to be the nicest guy on the planet but who is really a douchebag in sheep's clothing) took one of my not-very-bright girl friends to task when she was working in his department, apparently because she did't say hello to people in the morning. He told her that if she initiated the "hello" she would seem more attractive and likeable. She told this to me proudly as something that changed her life, like 'wasn't that great of him to set me straight like that?". I was like, "NO!!!" She's the most attractive woman I know, she's friendly and sociable as it is, and she has always kicked ass at her job...but somehow she gets taken in by all this male senior management bullshit that she needs to somehow make herself MORE attractive to succeed. Makes me insane.

He also told another friend of mine that she shouldn't eat lunch on her own, because people will think she is a loner and not want to socialize with her.

oh and these are tidbits he only gives to women. Have NEVER in 10 years heard anecdotal evidence of him taking any of the junior male staff under his wing for protips on how to be more charming or winning at their jobs.

There may be many good reasons to say hello and friends you know & everyone you meet but that is not one of the reasons I would list.

I am having so much of an easier time being friendly to strangers now that I don't live in a place where men offer unsolicited comments in public. Before, the embarrassment and pressure I felt was twisting and killing a lot of sunnier feelings. Also when someone does make unwelcome advances, I don't see red as much & am more likely to be calm about confronting them in a non-angry way.

Although I walked home a different way today and someone did say something. Not obscene, but not fun.

My gym teacher once told me "consider the source and rise above" and I think that's good advice for dealing with bad advice of all kinds. Every once in a while I will get on a My Feminist This kick but I only have so much energy to lecture people and I kind of have to save it for my students. I figure I am not going to win anyone over by starting my sentences with "ACTUALLY,..." ***not*** that I am saying anyone here does that. But I sure have and it gets me no-where. I think maybe people change their minds about big issues by sudden surprise and the best way I can be a part of that surprise is just by living well for myself in an uncompromising way. I want to give others the room to do that, too (unless they are totally odious, ha ha). There are lots of different ways to deal with...everything...and many of them are good...so it's ok if people choose different things. Why am I saying all this???

My favorite way to deal with unsolicited comments is the over the shoulder flip-offf as I walk away. Don't even look back, just show them the bird. Oooh it burns them! It feels so good! A tiny part of me worries I am going to get my sassy ass beat to pieces one day tho.

Hahaha I've done that more than once! Just got me yelled at and called more names, because if a guy is aggressive enough to tell you about your ass in public, he's aggressive enough to resent that you don't want to hear about it.

Yes, the yelling, I love it. I LOVE THE POST-RAGE YELLING. It's why I keep parking my scooter in this one spot I know will get me passive-aggressive notes. I just love seeing someone get so mad about something so simple and harmless that I have a right to be doing (having a body in public, parking at my apartment complex). This morning someone had written
STOP
PARKING
YOU
ASS
on the dirt in the windshield and it made my day.

I don't know if it's the areas I lived in or what but I p much never get unsolicited comments on the street. Like maybe once or twice a year or something.

Hahah what? Stop parking, like, at all??? Anywhere??

when i yell at people these days it's not usually to try and change their minds in good faith, tbh; it's to blow off steam. i'm sure that doesn't speak very highly of me but what can you do.

A funny vid on a particular type of racialized streetcalling:

http://www.racialicious.com/2011/09/12/stanley-kubrick-chopsticks-and-how-not-to-harass-an-asian-girl/

"Somehow, it never seems to matter what the woman likes or appreciates, which is this unexplored dimension of street harassment. If the objection to women protesting street harassment is that we should forgive a man’s clumsy attempts to pick up a woman he finds attractive, then wouldn’t not offending a woman be pretty high on that man’s priority list?"

Yeah idk?? They don't have motorcycle spots at my apts and the property manager won't let me park on the sidewalk (which makes sense bcz then where wld ppl walk around or use their wheelchairs). I keep getting notes like this one:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4262/img2253b.jpg

THEY FILL ME WITH SICK PELASURE

That Racialicious post was really good.

when i yell at people these days it's not usually to try and change their minds in good faith, tbh; it's to blow off steam. i'm sure that doesn't speak very highly of me but what can you do.

LOL yeah.

I flipped off a bus driver this morning and yelled "KISS MY ASS YOU FUCKER" but that was unrelated to ideology and all about him waiting at the bus stop while the light was read, until I arrived at the door, at which point the light turned green and he pulled away. Jagoff.

Whoah, this one is really striking something in me.

The comments in that one are pretty good too.

"Great post. Street harrassment, sexual assault, and the way violence is gendered are NOT public health issues. The framing of these problems as a public health problem rather than a systematic form of social oppression tends to place the burden for preventing them onto health professionals and social workers, tending to focus on the health problems of VICTIMS of this type of violence, instead of actually stopping the violence or questioning it. Even in the event that the problems a perpetrator may have are dealt with through public health initiatives, this tends to portray the perpetrators of that violence as having some kind of abnormality, they are "crazy" men who can't control themselves, when in fact we normalize and encourage this type of violence everyday. We need solutions that address the oppressive system, not solutions that individualize the problem. The framing of violence as a public health issue which should therefore be addressed by the government has led to victims being forced to seek help from government funded programs which individualize the problem, blame them, and define "success" in terms of success in the capitalist system, meanwhile the oppression is perpetuated by the attitude which the public health system betrays in the solutions it provides to the problem." <--I love this one.

Sorry so long!

The comments on that post were great!

“Just because we’re both Black doesn’t mean you’re entitled to my Black body. I let *you* know if and when I want to be bothered. Until then, zip it and focus on whatever the hell it was you’re doing before I walked by. And if you weren’t focused on anything, I suggest getting a focus besides me. Dig?”

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have wide feet? Its impossible to buy shoes that don't kill and online ordering is a pain in the ass, since I have to get them delivered to work. Tips? Stories? I'm tired of wearing sneakers with everything.

11 wide! Woo.

I don't have tips other than I have developed a familiarity with some brands that I know work and I take advantage of Zappos free shipping to buy more than one pair of shoes and send the ones that don't work back.

Payless and plus size clothing stores like Avenue and Lane Bryant carry wide widths in stores but their shoes are all equally crappy.

i have wide feet. i just wear men's shoes.

I do that, too.

*raises hand* 9 wide, here. I buy from Zappos when I can afford it and scrounge around at Ross/Bealls Outlet/whatever when I can't.

Oh, Nordstrom Rack generally has a good selection of shoes for the large of foot.

thanks all! i got really discouraged when i went to macy's and they were like "we carry NO wide shoes" and same with aerosoles, and i didn't want to be condemned to buying shoes online. maybe i will just have to give it another shot.

It sucks but non-crappy, non-discount warehouse shoe retailers just don't carry wide widths.

Oh, I've had some luck at places like Kohl's, DSW, and some outlets.

Also, re buying on line, I like to comparison shop between Zappos and Endless bc sometimes Endless is a lot cheaper.

*shrugs* I prefer shopping online, anyway. Better selection and no driving (I live in a place where I have to drive 7 miles to get out of the woods and 20 miles to get to a medium-sized town.)

yeah. the big zappos and DSW boxes being delivered to my cubicle are a bit embarassing :/ how do NYers who don't live in doormen buildings receive packages?

Everyone gets everything at work, and it's not considered embarrassing. :)

We aren't allowed to get personal packages at work. :/

I am not allowed to receive mail at work (and we are prohibited from dropping personal mail in the office outgoing mail bins - the mail room supervisor sent out an email to all staff with a lost of people's names and their mail (plus the unidentifed personal mail) with instructions to retrieve said items immediately) so I have things sent to Jeff at work or I pay $5 to have them sent to a UPS store front. :/

For large parts of Bklyn, the nearest "UPS hub" is like out the fuck by the airport or something. (Which btw isn't even in Brooklyn, it's in Queens.) So if no one can answer the door at your house during the day, you are kinda screwed. I didn't realize they charged extra for getting yr package from a UPS store but I just looked them up and they're all FRANCHISES, so I guess they have to make a profit somehow?!? Blerghgghh

UPS now has a website called myups.com or something where you create an account and you can then authorize them electronically to leave packages on your stoop. I've used this like 5 times already. It's great.

same here -- hub is out in the burbs, relying on neighbors always sketchy but better than trying to find one's way to the burbs

Hahahahaha packages on the stoop, that's a good one.

?

Cause ppl would swipe it them, you mean? I guess I've been lucky.

OutSIDE? All day??

yeah ¯\(º o)/¯

tho the ppl on the 2nd flr will put stuff inside the first door if they get home first

I'm glad that has worked out for you. We do that in MI, of course, but it would be a bad idea anywhere else I've lived.

me too
i barely trust my neighbors

Yeah maybe I shouldn't do it but I've been doing it a bunch lately and haven't had anything go missing yet. The street gets a lot of traffic too so I guess it's sort of surprising. Hmmmmm. I might not do it anymore.

Re getting packages: Sometimes your building's mailboxes might be in a foyer or lobby, in which case the mailman will have a skeleton key thing to get in there and can leave packages on the floor. This does not help for UPS/FedEx, though, and it also does not help if your mailboxes are outside of the building and there's nowhere to leave anything.

Oh yeah, the UPS hub is… I don't even know because when packages have ended up out there I have found it more efficient to let them send the item back to the retailer and order it again (or not) than find my way to it. Jesse has mad ethe trip and barely lived to tell the tale.

We live in a three-flat now, so no foyer and we're on a busy street and while I have occasionally successfully received packages (when I've forgotten to change the delivery address), I've also had stuff stolen. Our old apt was in a courtyard building w/ a locked gate and sometimes Fed Ex/UPS would literally throw things over the gate into the yard, once right into a snow bank.

here to report that on my picturesque street in not currently sunny Toronto, we leave notes for the post office saying 'yup, please just leave it at the door, thanks' (he generally wedges it between glass & solid door) and that's never been stolen but someone did once dumb a tomato plant over and steal the 10 cent plastic container it was in! :P

That said, I live in a triplex with my landlord and one other apartment, usually people I know (or soon do after a month or two living near them)!

Unrelated. Ladies, I have encountered a frustrating phenomenon with a couple of guts I know, and I'm wondering if it's a "thing".

My husband, and my close male friend are both very keen to have me listen to/watch/read things they get into. Which is normal, and I'm totally on board with. Love new things! If they find out I haven't seen x movie or read y book they will seek to immediately correct it.
But whenever I share stuff I'm into, both of them, without fail, will not read/watch/listen to my own exciting thing I have to share, unless I badger them into it & even then they're like "meh, it's okay."
I've called them out, like wtf is this "you can't teach the teacher bullshit you're pulling on me." Not that I need them to give me validation of things I enjoy, but how come my shit is never as cool as their shit, when I *know* it is if they weren't so quick to dismiss me? Is it a dude phenomena in general? A personality type? Do any of you have this with significant others?

I dont know why it bugs me so much...but I've always love sharing my passions with my friends...it kinda hurts to feel like a lame girl with my "little" things, you know?

lol *guys, not guts. haha

My husband does that too! I chalk it up to him being dumb and not realizing my AWESOME. :P

i've had friends like that of both genders -- try to limit my enthusiastic foisting to people who have shown that they specifically would be interested in that thing. just because i'm super into it doesn't mean that anyone else is likely to be.

I think that's sad, veg, and I'm sorry it makes you blue. It might be a "dude" thing, quite possibly? Because there's a def recorded phenomenon in which girls/women will invest themselves into stories, hobbies, things with male characters and/or directed at men, but boys/men on the whole do not return the interest in things with female characters/directed at women. Maybe yr dudes have internalized this kinda thing?

I've heard lots of stories from girls about guys doing that to them, but it doesn't seem to happen to me. I think possibly I avoid it through the 'honorary dude' status that sarahel was talking about upthread.

Yeah, I think I may have been similarly fortunate because I don't feel like this happens all that often with me.

there's no official ban on it here. my main embarrassment is that the last time I did it, I had to return three pairs of shoes multiple times, because the sizes were all wrong, and then the new sizes were still off, and it looked like i was just getting a daily influx of shoes...:) i used to be in charge of the mail for my center and NO ONE ever got non-work packages delivered except for me! i can't speak for the wider college (i work at a university) but now that i'm not on mail anymore, i feel awkward doing it--i would feel less so if at least one other person used it for these purposes!

xp -- that used to happen with one of my ex-roommates (female). the last time i had it was with the wire, with a married couple i was friends with, and once they moved away i've stopped recommending it to them. they were very resistant to watching!

that last post had a lot of exclamation points. i don't normally talk like that...

xp - tbh i am probably the one who does this more frequently

I used to be one of those girls that said "All my friends are guys, I don't really like girls" which I cringe at now but it was true to an extent. For a long time my closest friends were almost exclusively guys. This has changed a lot over time in part because I've met some awesome and amazing women but also because I let myself realize that not all girls suck and I've become a lot more open to female friendships. Anyway, I think part of the reason that was the case is that I've always been into a lot of "guy stuff" in terms of pop culture interests? I don't know. I've also been pretty privileged insofar as that I've known a lot of really great and amazing men. Plus, if I thought someone was dismissing something I was interested in based on my gender I would be really fucking pissed off.

And they would know it real quick.

I like lots of things and try to be interested in stuff but I'm definitely NOT into some things, too--just no time. But then, I think the important thing is for people to share ideas and be excited even if the specifics aren't both their kettle of fish?

For honesty's sake I try not to patronizingly give the vague impression that I'll try their thing if I know I'm not going to. If I'm doing a good job, the person is going to know that I'm not into baseball or knitting or w/e but will tell me about it anyway because I'm into them and it's fun to talk. I want people to WANT to tell me things!

telling is different than foisting imo -- telling is "omg i am excited about this thing!", whereas foisting is "you gotta hear/read/see this" and then the person is like did you did you did you and if i didn't want to read/see/hear or w/e i just feel bad and like i have to make something up

i've been on both sides of this is what i'm saying
also not sure this has anything to do with male/female friends so much as it does about people having realistic expectations of what their recommendations will yield

See I've always been honorary dude, and my awesome friendship with my husband is based on loving things like military history, horror movies, football. The things I try to introduce fall in that realm of stuff I *know* he digs. Same with my friend. I dont, or try not to, go off reservation with them.

It seriously feels like it's because it's ME showing them, like in their mind that's not the arrangement, or it implies some kind of weakness. Like, no we have to show YOU.
And my husband's not a macho dude, thats what's so confusing.

v=dh4zcFEf6No

Yes, that sounds annoying VG. I would not like that at all.

Sometimes I get really excited about something and will start to tell people about in great detail when I notice their eyes sort of glaze over and I realize, "Hey, maybe this isn't really their thing". I can get overly enthusiastic about stuff and have to remind myself that not everyone else will be as into whatever it is as I am.

I think Laurel has a good point re internalizing certain norms. The situation feels really familiar to me, but as I'm thinking about it, I can't think of any recent examples. Jeff's pretty game to try new things.

I used to be one of those girls that said "All my friends are guys, I don't really like girls" which I cringe at now but it was true to an extent. For a long time my closest friends were almost exclusively guys. This has changed a lot over time in part because I've met some awesome and amazing women but also because I let myself realize that not all girls suck and I've become a lot more open to female friendships. Anyway, I think part of the reason that was the case is that I've always been into a lot of "guy stuff" in terms of pop culture interests? I don't know. I've also been pretty privileged insofar as that I've known a lot of really great and amazing men. Plus, if I thought someone was dismissing something I was interested in based on my gender I would be really fucking pissed off.

― ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ (~curious orange~), Wednesday, December 7, 2011 5:35 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Permalink

THIS IS EXACTLY ME. Though I think a large proportion of my gaining female friends is down to the fact that at school/during teen years they perhaps felt more of a compulsion to conform to the stereotypical 'girl' thing in order to be popular, whereas I knew I wasn't ever going to be popular, so I might as well be myself and just hate/be hated by everyone. On the other hand, I still have moments of rage towards my female friends, such as when we organise something like a book club, and because it happens to end up entirely female it stops being a book club and starts being a "let's talk about shoes and handbags" club. That is not what I signed up for. I mean, even here, which is a GIRL STUFF thread, I feel rejected and disappointed when conversation turns to make-up etc, like it's done just to remind me that I'm not a real girl and never will be.

It seriously feels like it's because it's ME showing them, like in their mind that's not the arrangement, or it implies some kind of weakness. Like, no we have to show YOU.
And my husband's not a macho dude, thats what's so confusing.

I actually have experienced this with one guy friend in particular years ago and iirc it was really obnoxious. I just didn't really think of it as a gender-based thing but what Laurel and Jenny mention about internalizing certain norms/roles could very well have been a factor the more that I think about it/this person in particular.

you're always a woman to me (and billy joel)

Oh god what was I enthusing about to somebody recently and the person was almost gnawing off a foot to get away and I knew it but I like couldn't stop enthusing. I can't remember but it was hilarious to both of us.

VG, that sounds like it's just a well-worn role. Your husband presents the pursuit and you accept it. That sounds like the kind of thing there is a way to fix and approach and I can almost hear the advice column language for it in my head but I can't articulate it.

Also any time you want to talk horror movies, holler.

Aw, Emily - stop!! You are so a girl (and to me that means that you're something awesome and amazing). Also, LOL that I posted what you were OTMoney-ing and that I'm also one of the ppl who posts most about make-up and shit. I wasn't always so into that stuff but sort of became more so over the years. Anyway I don't know what my point is here - I just thought that was funny.

Amanda started an ILS offshoot thread - maybe we should make better use of it since makeup, etc isn't just for women and not all women give a fig for makeup.

Hm well my eyes glaze over when people talk about difficult/experimental/noise music and records and that kind of thing, but those threads are ABOUT records, so...admittedly the No Boys Allowed thread is different, and more of a mix.

Also I'm going to Sephora at lunch to use my coupon and so I will need to tell the Internet about it.

Haha, yeah, I realised that as I was posting it. I mean, I certainly don't think people should stop posting about make-up in a GIRL STUFF thread, I just get paranoid and then sad, because that element of corporeality and bodily representation is just something I've never got to grips with.

xpost to ENBB, also relevant to jenny.

Is it the $15 off of 50? I used that last weekend to get some Christmas presents!

we're all in the same gang

$20 off!

$20!! Lucky!

do you ever find yourselves on the flipside, where a guy will get into something because you recommended it, and then when telling others about said thing will totally write you out of the picture of how he came across/got into this awesome thing? My ex would do this regularly, and it bugged the shit out of me.

Yesssssss

Also professionally.

*rage*

And that's one where I have a hard time standing up for myself because I was taught (one might even say SOCIALIZED) to be modest and let my accomplishments speak for themselves, lest I be a tacky braggart.

my xroommate did that ALLLL the time.

Haha my boss does it, and she is a she. This is just an asshole characteristic.

I guess the thing is -- i was definitely vocal about my annoyance -- how "important" is proper attribution? In a professional setting, it obviously is more so than when it comes to who discovered a particular movie/tv show/band/book, etc. Like in my ex's mind, he felt that what was significant was to communicate the awesomeness and interestingness of the thing, and he didn't think that the details of how he came to be aware of it were pertinent.

this would happen on a regular basis:

my ex: blah blah blah is really great blah blah it is an interesting juxtaposition with other thing blah blah blah. you should totally see it.

friend: sarah, have you seen it?

me: oh, i was the one who made ex-bf see it.

attribution is fine but everyone does this don't they?
am i supposed to thank the person who introduced something to me every time i talk about it? how long does this have to last? not worth getting bent out of shape about unless offense is particularly egregious.

Oh, I used to get so mad about that, but then whenever I questioned it people would always look at me like I was crazy - "You didn't make this track, you just showed me it, now I'm showing other people, what's the big deal?" And I think they're probably right about it on a track by track basis - that problem also partially solved by the facebook 'share' function, so people can give you credit if they're linking to the same youtube you did last night, ha. However, I do still think it's a bigger deal about a band you're really into - if friend X suddenly decided to start spouting off about how amazing Dagmar Kraus is to friends Y and Z without mentioning the fact that I've been digging into the back catalogue and making my own 'best of' compilations for people for some time now, I'd be pretty pissed off.

right, that counts as egregious!

no one really does this to me these days, but my college roommate would make relentless fun of nearly all the music i listened to, and then would get into it after repeated exposure, and when ppl were like oh, that's a cool band you like, she would be like oh thanks. super irritating!

somehow this issue doesn't seem to come up for me anymore--i think it was the fact that we were roommates (in college, so shared an actual room) and were around each other way. too. much.

i have a funny story about this though
"band" is stand-in for actual band because i don't want that to distract from the logistics of the story

i introduced bf to band
he introduced band to his coworker at a grocery store
years later i very briefly dated the coworker (who was my age, bf was older)
coworker tried to introduce ME to BAND
i said yeah, i know about them but thanks

many years pass

coworker and i hang out, neither of us have talked to the bf in yeeeears. we reminisce about old times, and i had the pleasure of telling him that i was the reason that ex-bf introduced him to band

i felt like the wizard of oz

in other words, i am the smug tiny man behind the curtain

i think the thing that bugged me was that he'd do it in my presence. And it compounded - at least in my opinion - the "i/we" issues we had. I dunno if that's related to the social conditioning of a woman's value is determined by whether or not she has a bf/husband ... but I'd always say "we" when referring to something my and my ex did together. And he had a habit of always saying "i" -- even when i was standing right there -- about the same thing. And I'd feel like that was an attempt to render me invisible, or to dismiss my role/value in the experience. And I'd end up saying to him (in private, not in front of people, except in the cases where i was drunk), "You know, it's ok to admit you shared this experience with your girlfriend. It doesn't make you less cool. It doesn't diminish your accomplishment."

I validate your frustration/irritation there. It's one of those things that people might dismiss as small or not worth getting worked up about but I think that's one of those things that tend to grind you down after awhile, in part because the reason for the irritation is hard to articulate. It can also be really hard to get a partner to take you serious about something like that. I get it.

he definitely ended up taking me seriously about it! Of course, that led to the bad habit of "being taken seriously = the product of 20 minutes of screaming/yelling/crying"

I had one of those roommates, too, btw. P much anything I was interested in she would coop and them take to the ~next level~ so ppl would be like "Oh you're so cool and into that thing!" and she would bask in glowing admiration while I sat in a corner and glowered.

Oh god the "screaming yelling crying" to be taken seriously thing is the worst. Having to first argue that you are having a legitimate feeling before you can express it is bullshit!

sometimes it was the only way to get past the "yeah, whatever" stage

any of you see that modern family episode? claire kept telling phil to try a wedge salad & he never did, and he had lunch w/a (male) coworker and they tried the wedge salad & he comes home and is like OMG WEDGE SALAD YOU HAVE TO TRY IT and she completely flips...

this behavior you are describing is super annoying and i am not denying that. it is. however, there's another side to this.

let me introduce you to my father, the inventor of everything under the sun from jazz to civil rights to the industrial midwest to outer space. he invented all of it. it's his. whenever i know something and he doesn't specifically remember telling me about it, he says "how do YOU know about (thing x)?!?!" all incredulously, like *I* could never have learned something without his very special help. it is super duper annoying.

i try to give credit where credit is due -- and like it well enough when people give me credit for introducing them to things -- but there is a limit to the amount i can care about attributing credit to someone for knowing about something before i do.

it is super duper annoying.

I feel like this scores highly on the "understatement" curve.

haha
understatement: invented by my father, 1975

he invented me, after all

from jazz to civil rights to the industrial midwest to outer space

^^ this particular array of inventions is making me giggle

funny because it's true
my dad invented those things and demands credit

other things he invented:
art arfons and the land speed record
boris yeltsin
spelling bees
tennis
soccer
motown

NASA
deviled eggs
chicken salad

New Orleans
learning languages
hiking

I just invented the word "insufferable." Do you think he will like it?

He not only knows that word, but...(he's not a bad person btw, just kinda full of it)

Too late, I made it up a long time ago just to describe him. He doesn't even know about it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6104955/Rapist-next-door-alarms-victim

the rapist ACTUALLY SAYS:
Crofts told The Southland Times this week he knew his victim's address when he moved next door to her about three months ago, but claimed he had nowhere else to go.

He realised that she felt uncomfortable with him living next door, but he also felt nervous when he saw her because he didn't know if she would ring police, he said.

He had served his time in jail and wanted to live a peaceful life, he said.

"If I can get over it, why can't she? It's past tense."

i just... i can't even

i read that story this morning and it made me cry for her, it's so cruel and unfair.

Oh jesus, that is horrible.

Oh my god. Poor woman.

The worst part is that the guy is clearly at a very high risk of reoffending, which just just adds more stress to the situation for the woman.

I hate to say this but I hope she is able to move out & far away quickly before the worst happens. It's difficult to see this ending well for her with the lack of legal recourse or even protection. Also...FUCK I HATE THIS SHIT SO MUCH

Stories like this make me feel like going on a Dexter-style killing spree against rapists.

/The woman has an indefinite protection order in place against Crofts, but the order does not specifically say he could not live beside her./

I don't know anything about NZ law--what would be in this protection order if not anything about proximity? the article even says that he can see into her apt from his!

i know, it's crazy. i don't understand what kind of protection it must be if it doesn't prevent her own rapist from moving in next door.

BUT i hope the flipside of this is that it brings a huge gaping hole to light, within the area of laws that protect and serve victims of sex crimes, and now maybe something will be done about it.

it's really upsetting to me to think how terrible every day must be for her right now.

can someone link me to the wooing thread? sounds like it'll make me good and angry.

OH it is the one I started called Sandbox Romants. Vaya con Dios!

I found it.

it gets worse

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6112403/Rape-victim-harassed-for-years

so he's been harassing her with letters and sending his friends around to torment her, and yet there's nothing the law can do now that he's moving in next door?

getting pretty sick of seeing this condescending, women-hating shit on pinterest

http://images.piccsy.com/cache/images/im-a-girl-172414-500-500.jpg

boo

that was an "opposite of yay" boo, not a "spookin u" boo

Jesus fucking Christ.

I do all those things and they are very fun

i just hate the whole holier-than-thou, i-am-such-a-special-lady, all-other-ladies-who-aren't-like-me-are-whores, attitude.

i think i have been quite good bc i have not posted FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU on every single repin of that stupid poster.

haha I wonder if a Mormon posted it

i think there must have been some Mormon edict somewhere because all the church ladies i'm friends with on fb are posting every day about what they are thankful for

we are so grateful
for all our many blessings

I think that creating and reblogging that macro implies maybe those girls *should* do some of those things once in a while, loosen up, have some fun ;D

Oh i've done those things plenty. lol.

I LOVE pinterest but good god does it have a lot of shit like that on it. Also, religious crap.

i think i have been quite good bc i have not posted FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU on every single repin of that stupid poster.

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

What is a "spookin u" boo? That sounds fascinating.

lol

Boo! Like a ghost would say.

Oh lols, I just thought about it and suddenly it clicked. I've been calling ilxors "boo" for so long that I forgot about the whole ghosties and spooks connotation.

also thinspiration pictures on Pinterest :P I mostly stick to the DIY & food categories and just ignore the general streams

Oh yeah I fogot about all the dieting and thinspiration stuff. I think I just sort of skim the general stuff and click on thing when my brain goes "OOOH SPARKLY PRETTY!".

Me too, pretty much! I think I have done exactly 0 of the things I've repinned. BUT I'm GONNA. I swear!

I've cooked some things that I've repinned and done one crafty thing but yeah, same here for the most part.

People on Apartment Therapy and my godawful conservative cousins are too into it, so I've avoided Pinterest out of sheer contrariness

look at tumblr instead, its the greatest

I don't even know what pinterest is but it sounds atrocious. Avoiding things I don't like has become a real skill.

It's great, isn't it?!

"No, no thank you. Ah, thank you, but no. No, I'm going to stay home that night. Twitter? Don't mind if I don't! That sounds just lovely...for you."

I actually really really love Pinterest and think it's pretty amazing. I just tune out that stuff like I tune out tons of other offensive and/or annoying things online.

Amanda it's sort of a virtual pin board where you can "pin" links/images in different categories so you can go back to them later. I don't use it nearly as much as I should because.

Here are my boards, for example: http://pinterest.com/enbb

"I don't use it nearly as much as I should because" - errr no "because".

Yeah I can spend hours looking through hair tutorial pins, DIYs, decor ideas, etc., and it is quite ready to skip the dumb stuff.

Yeah. I just cleaned up my boards and started looking through things and, well, I know how I'm going to be spending the afternoon since I'm already in weekend mode and have p much no work to do.

yeah pinterest is super fun as long as you have a good visual filter! I am rednotdead, JOIN THE DARK SIDE.
you can also find me on tumblr at whistlindicksie. possibly with a g, I forget.

I don't really like to look for hairdos or home decor -- is it just stuff like that?

Nah - it's tons of different stuff. There are boards for pretty much . . . everything? Clothes, crafts, health, travel, photography, art, pets - lots of stuff.

i think i'll just stay here

Ha I just tried to explain Pinterest this morning and spent a few minutes at lunch telling Jeff about all the ways I dislike/don't get Tumblr.

I like Pinterest in theory but I rarely do any freeform web browsing (just follow links from Twitter or from blogs I already read via Google Reader) so I don't know what I would "pin."

well, that's just it: you are looking at everyone else's pins (the analog would be 'tweets') and repinning stuff you like. of all my pins, probably only 10% are 'original' pins i found elsewhere, the rest is all 'repins'.

i don't either? i pretty much cover my bases with a running email to myself that i keep in drafts called "stuff"
beyond that i feel like it's just fodder for me being obsessive/hoardy of information (a trait i do NOT want to nurture in myself)

for instance -- i instantly delete any email from online clothing retailers unless it is a huge 50% off or more sale on something i already want
sure i could find things i like and "save them for later" but then what -- i buy them? eh. would rather just not. sometimes i feel like anything trying to sell me anything is borderline predatory.

SO otm. For me it's most a place for getting new ideas for things i want to make food and craft wise. I like that it's all in once place and now that I've figured out how to pin on my Ipad I will prob do it more. I also like the visual aspect. I repin a lot and that's led to to finding some really cool new sites and ideas. I mean - i totally get why it's not for some people but I've enjoyed it a lot when I remember to use it!

Is there an iPhone/iPad app?

good for gift ideas, too. although, like lexy, i have an amazing list of DIY crafts but haven't actually done any of them. i DID buy the frame/pegs/string/prints to make a really cool display for some of our better wedding photos... i just haven't gotten round to actually putting it together.

the most annoying thing about pinterest is seeing the same thing repinned over and over and OVER again - wish there was an option to 'hide this story'

breaking news: i haven't washed my hair in 4 days and it looks fine, bc i found a hair blog through pinterest that may have solved some hair issues for me

even thinking about pinterest makes me feel disorganized and overwhelmed!

I made some polymer clay bangles I found on there that came out pretty neat and, like I said earlier, some recipes.

I think there's a mobile app. There is for Android at least. The thing I was talking about for Ipad was a bookmarklet which let's you pin stuff from anywhere which doens't exist but I found a tutorial on how to create one using code in your bookmarks. OK that prob doesn't make any sense at all.

i guess the bottom line is that if i had a list of things that would be cool if i did them, but i kept not doing them for whatever reason, that --> feeling bad about myself for not-doing things, which --> basically pinteres sounds like (for me) a recreational automatic self-loathing machine --> dnw

every waking minute becomes "oh i should be doing THIS!" and really i have enough of that with work
part of that is just the way i am though

i think my brain just doesn't work in a way conducive to using something like that.

i found a hair blog through pinterest that may have solved some hair issues for me

link plz?

i feel like i have to physically see/sense something irl for it to make an impression - or at least motivate me enough to "file it away for later." which is probably good in some ways, because i'm less prone to impulse internet shopping, but at a bricks and mortar store ... i'm probably their dream customer tbh

tumblr helped me find these gems, and I am super happy about it

http://img3.etsystatic.com/il_570xN.291895195.jpg

those are nice skivvies

do you wear them to goth clubs? please say yes.

well I havent ordered them yet. They have to be custom made... BUT OF COURSE I'LL WEAR EM TO A GOTH CLUB once i get em!

you could wear them anywhere because they are skivvies

julia - hdofblog.com

the girl who writes it is super adorable and reminds a lot of robyn and some other lady ilxors.

anyway, bc i'm sure you're all really interested: my hair is quite fine but lots of it, and bc it's long, all of that is conducive to really flat limp boring hair, and from this blog i learned that i need to TEXTURIZE by just doing a teensy bit of backcombing/teasing at the root of each section and then using this new conical curling wand i got to curl it. the result isn't really curls, but my hair looks more wavy and just "bigger" and it lasts for days. like, today, day 4 of no washing, it should look pretty sad, but it still looks pretty poufy and good. also: she recommends really scrubbing the shit out of your scalp when you shampoo, shampooing twice (first with small amount, then with slightly more, and bc this gets your scalp so much cleaner it gets less greasy, which seems to be working for me.

My very favorite foundation is mousse. I talk about mousse all the time, but I don’t know that I ever get much more specific than saying that it is great for volume. The truth is, mousse is the world’s greatest foundation product. Note: sometimes my clients are shocked to see that I might use two or three handfuls of mousse in their hair. That is when I don’t have time for nonsense (or misbehaving hair).

I like her already. I am a firm believer in mousse. I actually use a foaming wrap spray made for black hair that acts like a mousse but is not as stiff it is awesome. It failed me today though because it was hot on the bus and I was sweating (yes, even my head) and now i'm in flat hair city. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm gonna follow this lady now. Thanks Justine.

I just started using bumble and bumble grooming cream and it is pretty great. I have a crap load of little cow licks going all the way around my hairline that make the hair on one side of my hair flip out and just a bit of the grooming cream makes it not really do that. Instead it makes the cowlicks work to make my hair more poofy and wavy and pretty. I don't even have to use a hair dryer.

Jeff uses that so when I need a little something I use his.

yeah i am def getting on the volumizing mousse band wagon. she also reps for garnier's wonder waves, so i might try that too.

My hair is quite fine but super curly, so it tends to be kinda limp without a good cut and/or product. bumble has a curls-something mousse (cant quite think of the name) that is *awesome*. Their thickening spray is pretty rad too.
Fuckers are $$$ but they're the best products I've found for my hair.

registered 2 days ago to sympathise with VG re the bf/male friends ignoring recommendations thing, and then forgot about it by the time the sandbox activation email arrived.

so, bit late for mentally-composed epic post now, but 1. hi and 2. VG, I sympathise

have been a bit scared of volumising product since my hair was accused of being "bouffy" in high school, but it's a lot more flyaway/frizzy these days, so maybe it's time

oooh the other thing i like about that girl's blog is that she is all FRIZZ IS OK

she is even into actually embracing and encouraging a little frizz

my hair is like my voice - i generally need to reduce its volume

<3

never stop booming, sarahel.

So I am all glitzed up for my work holiday part and not to brag or anything, but I look awesome.

BOUFFANT UP-DO
SWEETHEART NECKLINE + MESH SLEEVES/NECK BODYSUIT
HIGHWAISTED GOLD AND BLACK SKIRT
GIANT PURPLE BELT WITH GOLD BUCKLE
DANGLY EARRINGS
SPIKED GOLD BRACELET
CRAZY ASS BRONZE AND BLUE EYESHADOW

move over sheena easton.

Photograph?

^^^

yeah goddammit, PICS!

This bumble grooming cream sounds ideal
I was reading mindy kaling's book today in urban outfitters (er...) while waiting for a friend who was returning stuff, and in one chapter she's taking about guy style and says bumble and bumble for hair, khiels for face, to which I was like, well, that's pretty limiting and unfair, but she is so funny, and also otm tbh

haha. that was more about complaining about how easy it is to be a together dude than endorsing specific products iirc. at least i hope.

I have heard khiels is friggin awesome for face stuff though. I want to get some moisturizer soon. I've been using aveeno spf and it's aiight.

khiels is just ok

Yeah, I think it's a little overrated for what it is.

I have liked whateer B&B stuff I've used but it's just so $$$.

I think one of the things dudes love from Kiehls is the shaving cream, though, because they had like 3 different specially-formulated gentle blah blah kinds before the whole metrosexual/grooming thing. I think other parts of skin care are way less important to men than shaving.

Just got a really disappointing moisturizer from Kiehls. It's the SPF15 one and I didn't look closely enough before I bought to realize that you're not supposed to use it around your eyes - stings like hell. I like slap-it-on moisturizers.

I really enjoyed supporting Kiehls before they were bought by Revlon or whomever, it was nice to give my money to a family even if they were rich and semi-famous and not exactly starving artists or w/e. That part of the mystique totally worked on me! Then they sold the company (to retire, I think?) and the main store closed for a while, and now they sell more stingy things and their samples police is less liberal.

policy

the samples police

I love my bumble & bumble surf spray. It smells like the beach!

My stylist (and her predecessor) always insists that a B&B conditioner, the volumizing one, is the only conditioner for me so I bought some and I hate it. I like the cheapass Suave coconut better. I love B&B super rich conditioner and the coconut one, though. I just need a heavier conditioner than the person who cuts my hair thinks I do, I guess.

I found out I am having a baby girl, I already had feeling like by week 6 or 8. She is due very close to my birthday, actually has the exact same due date I had but I arrived two days later. It got me to thinking of how I don't want my daughter to be a cookie cut-out of me and I don't think she will but I started to go over my life with a fine toothed comb to try and figure out why, what I want her to know, what I hope she doesn't have to encounter etc...

One thing I hope she finds is female buddies. I was always the girl who had one best girlfriend. The bestie was always just like me and we isolated ourselves from other girls. I preferred guys as friends because they were always straight with me, funnier, more interesting, no fighting, name calling or weirdness ever transpired just fun. In my teen years we all shared a love for vinyl and vintage things. As an adult, males continued to provide a stability in friendships that I rarely found in females.

I have a very small group of female friends who are all part of other very small groups of female friends, very small. I never liked the girly parties, always got made fun of, always got hurt or insulted, bullied. I would like my daughter to have a healthier relationship with females, equally with males. I will try but ultimately she will be who she is. My sister is the complete opposite, has a huge network of females, had like 15 bridesmaids and was in a sorority. I feel in order to cultivate an environment where my daughter can have a chance to form healthy relationships with other little girls, I have to get out there and hang out with other moms? The idea of hanging with a group of women just makes me...ugh! gag.

Congratulations on yr babby!

i'm sorry about this:

always got made fun of, always got hurt or insulted, bullied.

that sucks. but if you approach interacting with other women like this:

The idea of hanging with a group of women just makes me...ugh! gag.

nothing good will likely come of it. women are people, you know, just like you. i don't entirely understand what you're concerned about, wrt your daughter-to-be. i guess it would be nice if you knew some kids for her to play with, but she'll figure that stuff out for herself eventually. definitely i would try not to model an aversion to hanging out with other women. is it that you feel sort of wistful you haven't had more female friends? there's still time to make some.

congratulations, by the way!

I'm pretty sure if you polled the wimmens of ilx, nearly 100% of us would say they were bullied and shut out by other girls in their respective youths. I totally was, girls were horrible to me (boys were too, but y'know, in different ways).

But it's not that hard not to turn out like those people, and once you grow up and get to choose your own friends out of larger circles, you can cultivate people of any sort you like. You don't have to be girlfriends with the same kind of woman forever and ever! Just pick different ones to talk to and make friends with next time!

Be friends with dudes too, by all means, it's not like one is at the expense of the other! But for the love of cheese, enough already about how WOMEN are so hard to be FRIENDS with. You're a woman. I'm a woman. We're friends (probably). See how not-hard that was?!

i think it's more challenging to find the people who will be your good friends than to actually be friends with them.

think other parts of skin care are way less important to men than shaving.

^i use the udder balm on my hands post-climbing fwiw

I would never argue with that, it IS hard to find really fast friends who grow with you over years or decades and who uphold yr trust and give back. And sometimes you have to go looking for them, or really grab them when you see one? Also a big thank you goes out to the internet, because it has brought me A TON of the people I love and who love me.

I'm not even trying to hear this "ugh gag" business. It's hard to find friends no matter what gender you are and if you think a room full of women is more ugh gag than a room full of men, consider this

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/graphic/xlarge/08_30_05%2815-29-12%29_108th_xl.jpg

the league of women voters has spoken

The idea of hanging with a group of women just makes me...ugh! gag.

i would say that you definitely owe it to yourself to cultivate some friendships with women - not just for your daughter but for yourself as well. we are pretty cool as genders go!

connecting with other moms would be potentially really good for you...there is nothing easy about being a mother and as supportive as they may be, your male friends/partners/etc. will never REALLY know what it's like to give birth and be a mother. and being friends with people with shared experiences will give you access to information and support you may not have had before - recommendations for childcare/doctors/etc in the community, approaches for dealing with difficult child behavioral issues, etc.

i think it also depends where you live, though. i know my mom had trouble making close female friends when she & dad moved to the town where i grew up, which was a lot more conventional and uh, republican than where she had grown up and where my parents had lived previously. and I have at least one friend from college who is married w/kids who lives in a midwestern suburb that regularly feels frustrated and fish-out-of-watery when hanging with the other moms.

Yeah, very possibly. Was true for me when I lived in smaller or more conservative/homogenous places. But then...the internet!

Or there's also the chance to BE the woman you want to be friends with, if that makes sense? Because maybe some other women would like to break out of the mold too but don't see any examples of it? The challenge is to be authentically ourselves, whatever that entails, right? Maybe by showing our own struggles to be authentic, and expressing patience w other women in their struggles, we can make a little space for other women to share, if they choose?

That is a lot of questions! Sorry.

totally otm - that was along the lines of my suggestions to my friend in the burbs. Like "what if you just started talking about the things that interest you or make the weird jokes that you think about?"

I frequently fail at the "patience" part of that, obviously.

it's not as if guys are better at being friends - there are plenty of guys who have mostly female friends bc for them women are better friends.

it's not about gender, it's about context/situations.

my mom said something to me that was kinda </3 the other day -- she said that she didn't think she was a very good friend, but that she was a really good employee. It reminded me of that "emotional TMI" thread started by the league of women voters.

I don't approach a group of women with that attitude, I try not too. I have gone to baby showers and bridal showers where I only know the woman of the hour and with the idea that maybe I will meet someone, sit next to a nice person since we all share this mutual friend. What happens is I smile a lot, I try to start conversations but then the groups start forming and there have been times that I put myself in one of those circles but ugh...that is when it gets awkward. Then later, days or weeks, the woman I am friends with will mention in passing or make a deal out of how she didn't truly love everyone in the room but so and so was invited because so and so was etc.. I feel better.

Sometimes I feel it is a natural thing for women to be stand offish, cliquish and just not all the way cool with each other. I saw this in my backyard flock of hens. They are social animals that create communities and set boundaries. But when I see a warm female face or smile or feel that vibe of hey you can talk to me I do approach. I have to say I have been more successful at meeting and having cool conversations with woman who are several years older than I am.

My ugh is that fear of rejection and maybe a bit of ptsd with being with women around my age, ten years younger maybe. I can spot a female vinyl lover and will gravitate to them anywhere, I love any sort of passionate collector, reader or classic movie watcher, photo/camera enthusiast, livestock lover, bunny owner, burlesque and roller skating ... I have many interests and generally find people interesting. But I have to admit, at this point, it just doesn't take much to get turned off by a female. Patience is right.

But no, I do not plan on letting my child see this aversion which is why I am prepared to give it a good try and hang with other women. I just hope it goes well and I get lucky. It is a scary thing for me, something I am trying to get past. I have a wonderful circle of female friends, small as it is and they have and are in the process of having children. We travel though so I will not be around them, therefore, have to go out into the world and find new ones wherever we are stationed.

how old are you?

if i may ask

40

i was just wondering -- it doesn't really matter, and then i felt rude for asking

But I have to admit, at this point, it just doesn't take much to get turned off by a female.

what i really want to know is why it's so easy to get "turned off by a female" but men are given a wider berth to...be assholes? be not like you? be appealing in some other way? i just don't get it. doesn't make sense to me whatsoever. the world is full of people of all genders and orientations who are different and interesting. if you're traveling, might as well get to know some of them. who cares if they become part of your inner circle. give them a chance to get past the giant ogres guarding the door.

when you say you have ptsd do you mean it literally or is it hyperbolically?

My two ex-husbands are a testimony to the fact that I have met male assholes. No, I do not give them wide berth either. But on average I do have more casual run-ins with snarky female strangers than with male strangers.

Last week I had a pleasant conversations with a record store clerk about Mexican 78's and a label called Kicks. He was not a dick about what I didn't know and let me pay for my purchases with a credit card when they only take cash. He was nice.

Tonight I met a nice female and we spoke about records and music. It isn't like it just doesn't happen, it is just really rare to find. In fact in our conversation I brought up how in feminist class in college a majority of my classmates would have nothing to do with Beat Poets seeing the entire movement as male based only and took huge offense to it but that I wish they had given them a chance. She said she was not of that mindset and scored huge brownie points.

I think we are all in search of like mindedness to some extent. I appreciate empathy as well. I feel I am at an age where I no longer have to put up with what I don't want in my life and seek out what I do. I was only stating that now that I am having a girl, I will have to explore the female world again so that my little girl has a chance to make her own decisions. I am willing to do that for her but it will not be easy. I am willing to start with a clean slate on plenty of things for her sake.

You know, you could always ask a friend of yours to be your daughter's honorary auntie and send her nail polish colors and stuff? It seems like a tall order if you're planning on being yourself AND someone you're not, and tho I am not a mom, I don't think that's required?

Your daughter will probably let you know what she's into, as she gets into it! (Judging by all the blogs by ex-punks and riot grrls etc etc whose daughters have asked for Barbies and tutus and princess dresses, much to their mothers' dismay.)

(Not trying to derail, but posting this here so I don't forget about it: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/04/behind-the-perfect-body-models-and-bodybuilders/. Thank you. Carry on.)

Pyth, what you say makes sense too.

The Aunties have already started.

I got my models of women's friendships and support networks from watching all the women of my family interact at gatherings. Even though they came from difft places and were wildly difft people, the warmth and good sense in the house on holidays & parties was tremendously comforting to me and made a huge impression.

As long as yr daughter sees you having healthy friendships w both men and women, in whatever quantities, I'm sure she'll catch on.

yeah that seems otm.

You have managed to cast away anxieties, Pyth. Thanks!

2/3 of the young women surveyed for this study employed "vocal fry"

it sounds like this http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/vocalfryshort.mp3

or alternately, as an example ke$ha uses it when she says "i love your beard" at the end of whatever song that is where she says that

read more here http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/12/vocal-fry-creeping-into-us-speec.html?ref=hp

The researchers also plan to test students in high schools and middle schools to learn why young women creak when they speak. "Young students tend to use it when they get together," Abdelli-Beruh says. "Maybe this is a social link between members of a group."

lol olds

"We have hypothesized that this technique allows the subjects to communicate non-verbal content to others of their species."

yeaaaaaah, soooooo

more about vocal fry and gender

... but this tiny bit of evidence is certainly consistent with the traditional view that vocal fry has long been a common feature of sentence-final low pitches in American English, and that it's commoner among female speakers than among male speakers. Whether there's a generational effect (which could be due to life-cycle effects or to some overall cultural change) remains to be seen.

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3626

OMG this has a name! I was trying to describe this recently when I overheard this pitch-perfect, just, PARODY of Valley Girl talk all the way home on the Muni. (It wasn't a parody. But it was the first time in 2 years I have heard such an exaggerated way of speaking). I feel like people have to squish their necks way down when they do this.

Can we discuss a fashion matter?

Soooo, when did it become the thing for women to dress like eternal teenagers? And guys, too... for that matter.

I was watching some 80's movie, and realizing that women back then would dress a bit older than their age. I'm bringing it back. Dressed like a total cougar today. AND IT FEELS EMPOWERING. Sharon Stone would be so proud.

There was a great article about this a couple months back. I'll see if I can find it.

I fucking hate shopping right now. I feel like a lot of stuff in dept stores or whatever is either way to young and cutesy or too old and matronly. Gross.

Caught myself doing a little vocal fry at the dry-cleaners last night, for some reason. Thought of thread, smiled.

MANDEE, you will be unsurprised to hear that I couldn't agree more. I'm glad we have the freedom to dress however we like, but I way more enjoy actual tailored clothes and shoe choices if I have to look at people all day.

I can't get that sound file to work for me so I have no idea what the vocal fry is or whether or not I do it. :/

Mandee what does the cougar outfit consist of?

laurel does this well

i would love to mark an end to the cutesy over"styled" modcloth aesthetic for grown up women as well.

Its a silky-satiny black and white patterned top with shoulder pads that I got at a thrift shop, a big red belt around the waist, black trousers, high heeled boots, big cougar hair.

i kinda resist the "cougar" label though because back in the day, that well dressed attractive adult person wasn't overtly considered a predator.

(only understood to be one by the look in her eye -- zow)

I think Mandee's embracing "cougar" tbh. Do you look like an extra in working girl because it sounds like you do which means you're probably doing it right imo.

i understand -- it's an accurate descriptor for our times, i get it
i just wish there wasn't that added dimension of cougar

Yeah I am embracing cougar. I'm working a Carmela Soprano/Peg Bundy look these days.

i really need to upgrade my style to at least 'vaguely mature'

i'm a little jeal of my stylish lady friends and of my dudes that don't dress like teenagers, but it just seems like making the leap from 'jeans + t-shirt' to 'rakish man about town' would be hell of costly and time-consuming. plus it would involve going to stores and shopping and that just gives me the vapors.

(sorry for posting on yr thread ladies but lately i have been feeling a little unstylish and not-very-adult....is there an ILS thread in the sandbox? i need tips. also how do i shot closet liquidation)

mandee may i suggest you listen to this song to inspire you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZS0HRliPg

Here's the ILS thread: sandbox ILS-catchall rolling thread

i wish i could shop for you. shopping for men's clothes sounds like fun!

i am srsly tempted to shanghai my sister into shopping with/for me while she's home from engerland

homo you are welcome to shop for me anytime

Shopping for men's clothes is great fun. I generally have had more success shopping for men's clothes than shopping for myself.

Your sister might enjoy helping you, or maybe one of your stylish lady friends could help?

Tbh 'jeans + t-shirt' is how I dress approx 75% of the time when I'm not at work or in PJs and I'm OK with that.* I just wish that when I did want to dress up there were more options.

*My mother never fails to remark that it's time I get some adult sneakers every time she happens to see me in Converse. What adult sneakers are exactly, I have no idea.

e that is me exactly, down to the converse (which I wear to work all the time :-/ )

I would feel pretty great about a Dr. in converse tbh but that's just me.

I actually do have a lot of dressier/nicer stuff but it's so much to think about. This morning I was going to wear this new skirt I have but haven't worn yet but then I started getting overwhelmed thinking of which tights and boughts to wear it with etc. and I didn't have time so I just wore my work equivalent of jeans/t which is black trousers and a sweater. Laying out my clothes the night before helps this dilemma a bit but I fell asleep on the couch last night.

tights and boughts

lol

tight and BOOTS not boughts

omg so did i (fall asleep on the couch...i don't have to be @ the BEC until 3pm today so w/e i am just chilling)

lol :)

e, I didn't quite get what "vocal fry" was (I think maybe it's less common in the UK, but I have def heard it, and tbh I basically never hang around young people so whatdoIknow etc) until I followed the link from a comment elsewhere on the internet and listened to the stream on this page:
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/active-voice.aspx

Check the last word of nearly every sentence, where her voices goes low and sort of growly/tremelo.

I am a terrible person for wearing black jeans and sneakers (nearly the only shoes that reliably fit my wide, flat feet) to work every day. My token gesture to adulthood was when I decided I was too fat for t-shirts and started wearing buttoned blouses, but those are not cool and have been hard to buy for the past few years so now I wear tops which are basically... slightly nicer t-shirts, I guess.

i am a big fan of the slightly nicer t-shirt

also the only shoes i have worn for the past 2 months, save once or twice wearing my cowboy boots, are my blundstones, so... but i still feel like an adult. and my feet are v happy.

that voice lowering thing is bizarro imo

Oh wow I can't listen to that girl - her voice is really annoying! I don't think I do that. If I do anything I worry it's that I go up at the end of sentences and sound a little Valley Girl-ish. Hmmmmm. Maybe I can get the other examples to work on this computer . . .

Yes, that's very strange. I'm going to listen out for this and see if I hear it irl now.

After working hospo/retail for so many years, and having to dress accordingly, I love that now 4/5 work days I get to wear baggy jeans, trail runners and my husband's old t-shirts. It makes wearing ” proper” clothes less of a chore and way more fun.

you will! oh you'll hear it. talk to college students.

homo II i applaud you for your bold fashion. i hope you didn't think i was being critical of that whatsoever in my reluctance to accept "cougar". i guess i just prefer "vixen".

i think my default style is generally undercover witch/secret surprise occult priestess in a suit of rather normal armor.

i wish i could be a hammer woman, but i have neither the hair nor the bod

what's a hammer woman?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/poletti/sets/72157604767547323/
(may contain nsfw photos but the ones in the beginning are ok)

women of hammer horror

WMIG (would murder in gorefest)

i am a big fan of the slightly nicer t-shirt

me too but I must admit I still feel a little excitement at this time of year when I can get away with a plain ol' t-shirt (possibly advertising a band or something similarly symbolic of non-office vibe) knowing that it'll be hidden by a sweater all day

hahaha <3

What adult sneakers are exactly, I have no idea.

They aren't. Instead there are these things called "shoes."

I know, I know but I have big feet that are hard to find nice shoes for. Also, I wear shoes out really really quickly. I generally have one pair of black ballet flats, sneakers and a couple pairs of boots. I can't wear high heels for more than an hour at a time so they're pretty much out. :(

evan I seriously wanna shop for you.

can I make a polyvore for you??

x-post - Besides, sneakers just go better with a t shirt and jeans. ;)

There are so many wonderful oxfords out right now! And many kinds of loafers, too. Or Clark's, even if you had to buy men's sizes (not sure).

Oh I'm not quite in in men's size territory. I will have a look next time I'm in the market which is about now since my black flats are about falling apart.

Also if I'm totally honest - I pretty much hate shopping because I'm so unhappy with my body. If I felt more comfortable with myself I'd probably be more into buying more clothes and dressing up but I don't and so it's a lot easier to just wear "safe clothes" rather than go trying on new things and winding up in tears in a dressing room somewhere. It's a problem which I plan on addressing. In therapy! Tomorrow! :)

Check out these Bass oxfords!

http://a1.zassets.com/images/z/1/5/4/1545225-p-DETAILED.jpg

that is so true -- i've waited years for oxfords to come back and here they are. i've had a pair of black oxfords as long as i can remember, probably since i was 12?

god those red ones are so cute

It's a problem which I plan on addressing. In therapy! Tomorrow! :)
yay! squash that shit, you're going to feel better soon.

Those are really nice actually.

Oh man a couple years ago I went to the Bass outlets and they were having a buy 2 get one free sale on already reduced boots. I got three pairs of boots for < $100. It was amazing. Wearing a pair of them today as a matter of fact.

(different pairs since i was 12, obvs, but i remember virtually all of them because i wore them ALL THE TIME)

Tbh my entire style approach is to go too young with the hair and make-up and too old with the attire, so I embrace the matronly work wardrobe w open, polyester-clad arms.

http://a1.zassets.com/images/z/1/1/5/1153795-p-DETAILED.jpg

Those are Frye's, though, so price is slightly eeek.

oh boy those are the ones i have wanted FOREVERRRRR

they're perfect

In my Catholic HS we were only allowed to wear oxfords so I usually had a bunch. Or these - these were very popular too:

https://bassshoes.harborghb.com/images/product/views/ELYGOBI_lg.jpg

<3 Frye's but they're so $$$$. I know they last forever but I never have that much to spend on shoes at any given time.

omg I have no idea what I'd wear these with and therefore prob never would but I NEED THESE:

https://bassshoes.harborghb.com/images/product/views/FLAVIEWHSK_lg.jpg

Loaf loaf loaf

http://a1.zassets.com/images/z/1/7/5/6/3/7/1756377-p-DETAILED.jpg

(Nine West)

Oh hai look, also in blue!!!

http://a1.zassets.com/images/z/1/7/5/6/3/7/1756372-p-DETAILED.jpg

Ooooh, lech found the Rachel Antonoff collection!

btw my hahaha <3 was for emily

WMIG (would murder in gorefest)

― Illia Rump (emil.y), Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:33 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'm in desperate need of new boots - I want a sort of oxford style boot, mid calf, but haven't found anything under 200

laceup you mean?

with or without heel

Gorgeous shoes...*HEART* Frye's shoes and boots. They occupy the place in my heart once owned solely by Fluevog. Never owned a pair of those either. Triste. My life has always been very Nine West, Converse sneakers and whatever Born I can find on sale at Ross. Except for the year I saved for mediocre leather boots from Sundance. Okay, now I'm feeling sorry for myself, teehee....

smoove: What about (putting in full urls for info and for simplicity's sake):

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/steve-madden-troopa-boot/3132609?origin=category&resultback=288

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/ilenia-p-8020-lace-up-bootie/3191972?origin=category&resultback=5008

http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/steve-madden-graanie-boot/3179962?origin=category&resultback=4320

http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/asia-goracci-mid-shaft-boot/3191924?origin=category&resultback=4608

...and etc?

i am getting the rachel antonhoff heeled saddle shoes for x-mas... can't wait.

I was going to say earlier that I really want saddle shoes.

lucky! those seem like shoes i would want want want want and then wear like 2x because i have a glut of special occasion shoes and severe lack of occasions on which to wear them :(

maybe i just need a more exciting social calendar?

I was just looking at that collection thinking that I'd buy myself some with expected birthday money but I am worried I'll never wear them if I do. :/ I'll have to think about it.

I want a pair of shiny paratrooper jump boots for hiking to the subway in this winter.

http://www.uscav.com/ZoomImage.aspx?CatID=376&ImageURL=/prodinfo/enlarged/18941L.jpg

i was talking about the heeled ones. the flat ones would go with lots of stuff and aren't as SHAZAM POW.

http://www.gsaboots.com/images/cove/corcoran/1500_15.jpg

?????

I have a lot of kinda 50's-ish dresses that would look really great with the heeled saddle shoes... that was my intent, anyway.

I am picking out Evan's clothes! THIS IS HARD

I LOVE THE HEELED ONES, TOO! I was going to make a whole post about how if the price of the heeled saddle shoes was my soul, I'd sign on the dotted line. Did you see the cordovan & cognac combo??

i'd wear those black boots, but i am never without a pair of laceup black boots

Those black lace up ones look like the steel toe Docs I wore in HS/College. My shitkickers as my dad would call them.

lol I am lame

HERE ARE SOME OUTFITS FOR YOU EVAN IT IS ALL FROM ASOS.COM, A VERY NICE RETAILER

http://www.polyvore.com/evans_wardrobe/set?id=40733243

Mandee have you ordered from Asos? How does the sizing convert?

I mean - has stuff from there fit true to size?

It runs about half a size big.

I've had magnificent luck, but I have pretty standard measurements for my size... and I am 5'8" so pants are always the perfect length on me.

My sister has quite different proportions than me and things don't fit her as well.

I've only had one thing not fit in the like fifty things I've ordered

I like that they tell you what size the model is wearing - that gives some idea, often.
I've ordered quite a lot from there and the only things that didn't fit were just weird fits anyway (like a really rigid 'shell' top).

i have those frye oxfords and they are great! i got them from urban outfitters when they were having a 50% coupon thing and so they were more reasonable.

I forgot about this, but sometime ilxor Lauren has the high-heeled saddle shoes ("HHSS") and says they're turrible hard to match to wear b/c the high contrast of the white makes them look funny with a lot of pants.

omg ty homo

I probably would mainly wear them with dresses

i just rewatched pulp fiction and i have to say, either uma's black-pants-white-shirt outfit is timeless or i've totally fallen for this '90s resurgence. pos both.

It's totally timeless.

yaay! i am on the lookout for those pants

more for spring/summer tho. for right now i just need another pair of skinny jeans - uniqlo changed something in their design and now they fit oddly on me! all their pants do! even the jeggings! blargh. oh well, it just means i actually have to go shopping properly.

thanks, laurel (many xps)!

i really like the first steve madden ones, but i want a min. 2" heel

i like the second ones ok but i hate the black sole with that color on the leather, plus i prefer a round toe. also might be a bit short in the shaft (lol)

i was trying to post those graanie steve maddens when the sandbox went down - i really like them, think i might get them since they're on zappos and i can try a couple of sizes

don't like the last ones at all - too chunky/butch

but yeah - you totally got what i meant by "oxford style"... i was using that term (pretty inaccurately) as a shortcut for vintagey/toe seam/lace up/detail.

but i really really really can't/shouldn't spend money on new boots right now, bc i have 3 perfectly wearable pairs, and i have an idea that my husband has spent about 3x more than he was supposed to on b'day presents for me.

Feeling really frustrated with what ~feels like~ that whole "Why should we talk about it? Our privilege is that we never *have* to talk about or question this stuff!" wall right now.

Really feel like I'm constantly walking through a minefield of worrying about not ~offending~ dudes and I never know what's on the menu and what's not on the menu, and the rules are so arbitrary, and it's never actually one's "tone" but just the fact that one mentions it, at all. "Now just go off and have your little conversations about sexuality and sexual imagery somewhere they don't interrupt the stream of pictures of girls in their underwear."

I know it's probably not that, but it really *feels* like that, right now.

Anyway, as you were. Back to your dresses and shoes and whatever.

Kate! I specifically just said that it wasn't that and that I do think those conversations are important and should be had somewhere. You haven't posted to WS before, right? This honestly doesn't have anything to do with you or the discussion you tried to initiate - it's a standing thing. I've gotten in trouble for "talking" to much on that thread before as have many others. It's sort of part of the joke. So even though it *feels* like that right now I promise you it's not that and has nothing to do with you personally or your questions (which are really important ones!).

I was trying to be helpful by saying something now before someone said something harsh and easily misinterpreted.

I posted that *before* your clarification, TBH.

"Now just go off and have your little conversations about sexuality and sexual imagery somewhere they don't interrupt the stream of pictures of girls in their underwear."

This is the essence of that thread 24/7/365, Foth. The reason I avoid it pretty strictly.

Also the prevalence of what is essentially the same skinny brunette over and over and over and over.

What thread?

The "would smash" one, not that I recommend looking at it in too much detail.

I was quite enjoying the blithe positivity and pseudo-obliviousness of this new-era Fotherington Thomas, by the way.

never looking at WS is a good strategy for life imo

ws thread, thejenny xp

fwiw I would be very interested to read yr thoughts/opinions on this stuff FT/Pyth! I had a chat with a lady friend the other day wherein I mentioned my then-very-worrisome male anorexic pt, and made some comment about how the mortality rate for men with eating disorders might be higher because a) they don't have a biological imperative to maintain adipose and b) emaciated men are more likely to register as "scrawny" at a stage in the disease where a woman would be more likely to register as "dangerously thin," even accounting for messed up values wrt women's bodies etc

then my friend told me about that andrej dude I'm just now seeing for the first time and was like "they're even using men now as models precisely because ladies' bodies arent designed to get thin enough" *spits on the ground*

I should prob stop butting into the girls thread sorry

Yes, most of the women posted are skinny and conventionally attractive but they're mostly actresses and models who are obviously more likely to fall into those categories. Is that a problem? Of course it is and I'm not for a minute suggesting that it isn't but it isn't a thread about people we see on the street who are normal looking and amazing, you know?

There have been exceptions to that though and generally people are very accepting and welcoming of those exceptions. I have posted plus size women several times who were met with nothing but a lot of enthusiasm and praise. Others have as well. I read and participate in that thread pretty regularly and have never heard anyone say anything on that thread that was truly offensive or out of line that I can remember. Obviously it's your choice to avoid the thread and I understand that inclination but it just seems strange given that it's not really an awful thread to begin with imo.

Also, it's why I've made a concerted effort to participate in it from the beginning to keep it from being a thread of just those images. I tried to get other women to take part and it never really happened which is fine, I'm just saying. Inserting myself into that sphere has made it a less threatening thread that it may have seemed otherwise but I've been fairly pleasantly surprised that it's always been pretty decent.

Evs, start a thread for "Running alongside the girls only thread" or something, maybe? We can have that discush there if you want.

This thread doesn't say only!!

I specifically made it so it didn't.

What I found most depressio was this:

-I posted a picture of Thom Yorke looking really quite, well, average. And the reaction from men was: wow, the fact that ppl lust after TY give hope to average to ugly dudes everywhere that hey, weird looking smart guys can be lusted after. I got the feeling that this felt really quite empowering or ego-boosting to a couple of the guys on the thread, and it was smiles and niceness all round.

-JM posted a picture of an absolutely stunning, physically perfect model, who happened to have a lot of freckles. The reaction was not initially "omg freckles amazing" (though that did happen later) but a kind of "wtf is wrong with that girl's face" type negging.

And, as a woman who is quite seriously *not* perfect (the freckles all over my arms and shoulders are the least of my problem) it's my o_0 that this woman, who is 1000 times more attractive than I will ever be. And even she is somehow not enough for a bunch of dudes on the interwebs who self admittedly look more like Thom Yorke than Ryan Gosling or Mark Ruffalo.

It's that thing I know you've all talked about on this thread before, about how, like, straight women who are average looking expect to date men who are average looking, but men who are average looking expect to date, I dunno, Zooey D. And you can't even *talk* to them about the expectations these images create without them getting all offended about it.

I was quite enjoying the blithe positivity and pseudo-obliviousness of this new-era Fotherington Thomas, by the way.

This is the weird thing, I am often a blithely positive person when I'm allowed to just be myself and go on about Cornish landscapes and Richard D James' freckles or whatever without being worried. It's the constant criticism and negging and clusterfucks that really wear me down and make me paranoid and unhappy. When my natural state, I really would rather be a Fotherington Thomas wandering about going "hullo SEA ARCHES hullo THOM YORKE'S CHEEKBONES!"

a million x-posts now I can't keep up.

The reaction was not initially "omg freckles amazing" (though that did happen later) but a kind of "wtf is wrong with that girl's face" type negging.

One dumb troll did that in an obviously ridiculous an annoying post that was ignored by everyone else.

I saw that post and said "asshole trying to get attention not worth my time" in my head and that was it.

it isn't a thread about people we see on the street who are normal looking and amazing, you know?

First of all, there's no reason for it NOT to be about that except that there are fewer pictures on the internet of "normal" people in their underwear and god forbid we run short of pictures of tits. But there are plenty of female thinkers, writers, musicians, WHATEVER who people could be expressing attraction to and they are practically never posted on the thread (today's topical mention of PJ aside), which is almost 100% beauty policing in favor of primarily young skinny actresses whose sexual attractiveness has been carefully manufactured to appeal to a demographic.

One dumb troll = behaviour a lot more like most of the Beauty Industrial Complex (which I work inside every damn day and it's killing me) and most of mainstream society at the moment. I just find it overwhelming sometimes.

If you don't want this to be a girls' only thread, I would ask if there's any interest in starting another one that is, because I believe it's important to have that space.

I can understand that, especially coming from the industry you work in. I just went back and checked though and it really was that one completely stupid comment and the rest of the ones about her were nothing but praise and compliments specifically about her freckles.

But there are plenty of female thinkers, writers, musicians, WHATEVER who people could be expressing attraction to and they are practically never posted on the thread (today's topical mention of PJ aside), which is almost 100% beauty policing in favor of primarily young skinny actresses whose sexual attractiveness has been carefully manufactured to appeal to a demographic.

Yes! This! And I got into a really interesting discussion with a couple of ILX0rs on twitter a few months back about this. About the kind of pressure, that even women who are thinkers, writers, musicians, whatever, they have to appear in these "girl just sprawled all over this here sofa with her skirt all hiked up" photos which you would never see their male equivalents posed in? In order to be written about in very mainstream magazines, like, The Guardian Weekend?

Oh, I don't mind if it is and if other people want it to be that's fine with me. I just didn't want people to feel the need to apologize for posting in here since it really didn't state anywhere (until now) that they couldn't.

First of all, there's no reason for it NOT to be about that except that there are fewer pictures on the internet of "normal" people in their underwear and god forbid we run short of pictures of tits.

I never said there wasn't and I would welcome such a thing but precisely because of the reasons you stated it never will be. That's all I meant.

relatedly: https://twitter.com/#!/helenlewis/status/147682384047906817

straight women who are average looking expect to date men who are average looking, but men who are average looking expect to date, I dunno, Zooey D. And you can't even *talk* to them about the expectations these images create without them getting all offended about it.

^^ otm

Espesh when perfectly nice, normal dudes defend themselves by saying, like, "But my girlfriend/wife is beautiful, and she's a normal person! Really, I'm attracted to lovely normal women all the time", while being (purposefully?) oblivious to the fact that their public worship of faked beauty is part of a culture that makes their real-life loved ones feel terrible about/critical of themselves.

FWIW I also don't think it's *good* to export all these bodily concerns to men, as well. Like, I do not think that's the answer.

Firstly because hey, as a massive FAN of dudes with bodies like Thom Yorke (I have waxed lyrical about scrawny pale English dudes with bellies a million times before) that would be a thing of sadness to me.

But also, like, I went upstairs and there was a massive photo ad of RIPPED CHEST DUDE staring me in the face as I tried to fix someone's computer and I just think that's got to be so harmful for men, and also it's so clearly "give us all your money and you too can be surgically enhanced to look like this!" which is just gross late capitalism bleh

it's all just so depressio and I don't wanna be depressio

That tweet/letter is great.